How reliable are direct injection petrol engines?

E92

Curiosity is really getting the better of me tonight, but apart from the Mitsubishi GDI engine which is a disaster of an engine, I know that BMW, VAG, Alfa, Toyota and Ford amongst others have all started using direct injection petrols(well Ford have given it up again for Europe).

VAG have had GDI(or FSI as they call it) for well over 5 years at this stage, BMW first made GDI engines in 2002(the V8s and V12 engines got it then) and now almost the entire range has High Precision Injection, which is a much more advanced GDI type system, as it is effectively a common rail petrol, Alfa are recent additions to the direct injection set, while Toyota released a GDI petrol engine back in 01 with the Avensis.

How are VAG, Toyota and BMW GDI petrol engines getting on?

Are they as reliable as their non GDI sisters? I remember BMW saying that they would not introduce GDI to their petrol range until such time as the coking issue could be sorted, and in particular until such time as the fuel quality issue could be fixed. BMW doesn't offer the high precision injection engines outside of Europe AFAIK because there are still fuel quality issues outside of Europe.

Do they get the coking problem? Do dealers know what it is that causes problems with these engines(the amount of different advice I've seen on how to deal with GDI engines in a Volvo beggars belief, so I know that nobody still knows how to get these right even though they are around 12 years at this stage)?

And if they don't, what is going to be done about it?

There are loads of new rules about lower emissions coming on stream courtesy of the EU, and GDI engines have enormous potential because they can be very frugal as well as developing more power when needed.

Most manufacturers are planning GDI type engines(Merc has finally started offering GDI engines, Ford in North American and GM are spendinfg loads of money on GDI too), and that is all well and good, but what's the point if the technology in the garage can't keep up with them, if the fuel quality still hasn't been sorted out, and when they are expensive to fix when they go wrong?

JHMEG

E92, I think you'll enjoy this video. It answers some questions.

But it also raises some. That engine was used in the Stream, but isn't used in anything at the moment... What was wrong with it that they stopped using it?

This means the biggest Internal Combustion Engine maker on the planet isn't using Direct Injection.

bazz26

Toyota had issues with their VVTi engines when they first were introduced. They had to replace quite a few units, early signs of issues were heavy oil consumption. I've owned two including one with high mileage and had no issues with them.

New technology usually takes time to bed in, sometimes only real world use by consumers can bring these problems to the surface rather than a test environment.

zilog_jones

Were those "Lean Burn" engines in some Carina Es direct injection? What was different about them if they weren't?

JHMEG

zilog_jones wrote: »

Were those "Lean Burn" engines in some Carina Es direct injection? What was different about them if they weren't?

They weren't/aren't direct injection... With Lean Burn comes very high NOx emissions, and the new regulations that came in in Sept '94 basically outlawed them.

(Unfortunately for Toyota they were got again on emissions regulations with the Celica-190.)

bazz26

Lean burn was available in the Avensis until 2000 afaik.

JHMEG

In name only.

bazz26

Yeah, I thought most engines were carried over from the old Carina E.

JHMEG

bazz26 wrote: »

Yeah, I thought most engines were carried over from the old Carina E.

AFAIK, only actual lean burn was the 4AFE (1.6), which went through at least 2 revisions. IIRC, it was more powerful in the Carina E (105bhp) than it was in the Avensis (99bhp).

tyney

I had a legnum 1.8gdi. Odd yoke. Galant estate with loads of jap import goodies. Theory was that in lean mode under no load, it would inject on the compression stroke, but under load it would inject on the intake as normal. Runs hotter than normal engine.I think Mitsubishi shared the engine with volvo for the s40. Never gave me a moment's trouble in 2 years/20k miles. I treated it nice, fully synth and good filters. Some of the owners on forums in NZ and australia weren't so kind about it, but they had the choice of the 1.8, or the 2.4 twin turbo 4wd. Not surprising.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

E92, I think you'll enjoy this video. It answers some questions.

But it also raises some. That engine was used in the Stream, but isn't used in anything at the moment... What was wrong with it that they stopped using it?

This means the biggest Internal Combustion Engine maker on the planet isn't using Direct Injection.

Have finally got access to a computer with broadband.....fascinating stuff indeed.

Did Honda have problems with direct injection engines too?

I'm really interested in knowing if VAG FSI engines have all the problems of the Mitsubishi GDI engine e.g. coking, premature engine wear, emissions issues with age, the absolute requirement of low sulphur fuel etc.

I was reading about the Mitsubishi GDI engine on a Volvo forum, and when the emissions go wrong, the cost of repairs is enormous, but not only that if you get the engine decoked, then that might not solve the emissions problem(which is £2k sterling:eek:), so then the next port of call is the injectors(£1k sterling) and even then it might not sort out the emissions, so then you have to do something else. And then other dealers say to drive it like the car's been stolen for a while and that usually sorts it out. In short, nobody seems to know how to fix it when it goes wrong.

Then after a bit more digging in a Volvo forum, they were saying that VAG FSI engines were giving all the trouble the Mitsubishi GDI engine was giving too. Unlike the GDI engine, there are heaps of FSI engines around the place...surely VAG wouldn't sell in engine in such high numbers if they knew this problem would turn up(especially as they well knew about Mitsubishi GDI problems by the time FSI came out).

Yet I've never heard about direct injection engines giving trouble apart from Mitsubishi's GDI engine.

Do we have ultra low sulphur petrol yet in this country, or do we even have low sulphur petrol, and if so, what Fuel Chains supply it?

The crux of all the troubles with the Mitsubishi GDI engine stems from the fact that in Japan they've had ultra low sulphur petrol for well over a decade(that's why Mitsubishi introduced GDI in the first place, and apparently GDI engines in Japan live up to the company's reputation for reliability), and in Europe petrol(and diesel) had a much higher sulphur content.

Has the EU made any effort to make either low sulphur petrol or ultra low sulphur petrol mandatory throughout Europe?

Presumably, petrol these days has a much lower sulphur content, because surely to goodness BMW, VAG, Alfa, Toyota, Opel etc wouldn't be selling GDi type engines in the knowledge of what happened with Mitsubishi's GDI motor here in Europe, or are they that stupid;)?