dealing with builders

dinpawon

just started building a new bungalow - i have a fixed price contract - i have specified materials - my builder has sourced cheaper materials with thousands in the difference - i have written down exactly what i want and told him several times to get the materials i want which were agreed beforehand in the fixed contract- however i have found that instead of discussing other materials with me he just goes ahead and gets different ones hoping i dont notice - he has done this several times now and i hate having to keep an eye on things

- do i have to keep an eye on everything that is going on - he has told me that i am not to visit often but i dont visit except once a month - what is the norm - do i let him build away and ask for receipts or what -how do i know if he is making a huge profit off a clueless twit - i just want the job to be done honestly and i dont want to annoy him either but he has taken me for a fool - feeling quiet powerless - what is norm when dealing with builders - be strict, compromise - how? or keep in background and go by contract

unclebill98

Well I've just started building. I am on site every morning and again in the evening. Very forward with the builder and he is with me. I prefer it that way.

I'd not be putting up with that at all. I am on a fixed priced contract to. I do find he tries to get stuff done his own way, but in all fairness he runs every little change past me. Also, is it the norm for builders to hate architects??

Do-more

unclebill98 wrote: »

Also, is it the norm for builders to hate architects??

Very normal!

unclebill98

Do-more wrote: »

Very normal!

I thought so. I've had to bit my lip when there talking.....

Then they both give out about each other to me. Its funny

therewillbe

You pay the bills, go as much as you want. But remember hard hat a must ! You told him what you wanted , fair enough .He priced it , ok. If he has your requests and he got them cheaper , well so be it. But if he has gotten inferior items ,ding dong ! His problem.

sinnerboy

unclebill98 wrote: »

Also, is it the norm for builders to hate architects??

be very suspiciuos of builders who dislike architects - they tend to behave like the OP's builder

good builders prefer working with architects beacuse what is required is understood from the outset , with detailed drawings, specication , costings and programme

the OP's dificulties tend not arise , or if they do , the architect won't release payments

also the builder knows that the contract will be administered fairly , to both parties

OP you need the assistance NOW of an experienced architect , or engineer

Mellor

I'd agree with sinnerboy, some builders have serious chips on both shoulders, it makes the job difficult. Basically I have two jobs on site, in one the builder has serious problems with us, which stems from his shortcomings, and problems arising.
on the other the builder is doing a great job and we get on great.


To the OP, a fixed price contract is never fixed price.
The builder can source alternative materials and use th, this is down to EU law on anti-competition. But the materials must be at least as good.

recipio

Your builder hasn't a leg to stand on if he has signed a fixed price contract--he is clearly in breach of contract. It's compounded if the is putting the price savings into his own pocket. As for not visiting him on site, I'd be very suspicous of what he wants to hide.
As usual, dialogue should solve the problem but your bungalow is your pride and joy and if you can't resolve it take legal advice and consider dismissing him--work for builders is drying up and you should take control.

Mellor

recipio wrote: »

Your builder hasn't a leg to stand on if he has signed a fixed price contract--he is clearly in breach of contract. It's compounded if the is putting the price savings into his own pocket. As for not visiting him on site, I'd be very suspicous of what he wants to hide.
As usual, dialogue should solve the problem but your bungalow is your pride and joy and if you can't resolve it take legal advice and consider dismissing him--work for builders is drying up and you should take control.

This is very dangerous advice, and potentially wrong depending on the contract and the BoQ.
Fixed price, may not always be fixed price depending on loads of conditions. If the materials are as good as the OP asked for, then it is likely fine.

As for dismissing him, he has a contract, dismissing will be expensive.

unclebill98

I'm only new too building, but a fixed price seems like its a ruff price. I agree with Mellor, I'd not be sacking him.

Would I be right in saying that not many builders would take up where another left off?

ircoha

dinpawon wrote: »

just started building a new bungalow - i have a fixed price contract - i have specified materials - my builder has sourced cheaper materials with thousands in the difference - i have written down exactly what i want and told him several times to get the materials i want which were agreed beforehand in the fixed contract-

The issue here is what exactly u specified in the contract, if u were very specific on the material and he is providing a different material which has different performance characteristics then he is in breach of contract. the level of detail of what is in the contract is important. Can you give an example please?

however i have found that instead of discussing other materials with me he just goes ahead and gets different ones hoping i dont notice - he has done this several times now and i hate having to keep an eye on things

this is what he wants:)

- do i have to keep an eye on everything that is going on

yes twice a day with a good digi camera or/and a video camera, plan on about 2,000 time stamped pictures by the end for when the negotiations start. These pictures are the key to this problem.

has told me that i am not to visit often

You are the client

i dont visit except once a month

Jesus, it will be built in 3 visits max, holy cow-

what is the norm

twice a day every day and then at weekends when he is not there to have a good look.

do i let him build away and ask for receipts

receipts are not worth the paper they can forged on.

what how do i know if he is making a huge profit off a clueless twit

his profit is not the issue here, it is if u are getting what he signed up for.

i just want the job to be done honestly and i dont want to annoy him either but he has taken me for a fool - feeling quiet powerless - what is norm when dealing with builders - be strict, compromise - how? or keep in background and go by contract

In my experience a lot of builders do exactly that: source el cheapo, having bid using good el expensive.

I would agree that you should be loath to fire him as you wont get another builder easily and if u do they will make out that most of the original work is substandard and will have to be ripped out or they wont certify the work.
However if substandard material is being used and substandard workmanship is being done then relying on the contract is too little too late.

Keep the stage payments to a minimum and then have the discussion at the end.
In the meantime hire a professional to mind your ass here: He has taken you for a fool so it is time for the fool to strike back: after all you do have the money, or do you?

As noted elsewhere managing builders who don't like architects or engineers can be difficult if you don't have the marbles for it.

muffler

ircoha wrote: »

In passing, is he registered for tax?

What has that got to do with the OP's query?

archtech

dinpawon wrote: »

i have specified materials

Did you specify the materials in the contact documents? or just in pre-contract discussions. If clearly specified(contained) within the contract documents, well then the builder could (most properly will) be in breach of contract. If what you want was not contained within the contract documents, it is a lot less clear and once the materials are fit for the purpose they are intended for he could claim that he was within his rights. What's the opinion of your Contract Administrator? (Architect/Engineer?)

recipio

Mellor wrote: »

This is very dangerous advice, and potentially wrong depending on the contract and the BoQ.
Fixed price, may not always be fixed price depending on loads of conditions. If the materials are as good as the OP asked for, then it is likely fine.

As for dismissing him, he has a contract, dismissing will be expensive.

I did say take legal advice. Would'nt you dismiss a rogue builder if advised by your solicitor ? I know I would.

kerash

If your not too sure what your talking about, get a builder-type friend or family member (who will know what their talking about and what to look for) down to the site pronto.

You are entitled to go any time you like - its your build at the end of the day. Ask for receipts and whatever else you like, if only to keep the presure on him and show your serious and will not take any sh1t. Its your money you will spend it as you please, do not let him replace your requested materials with inferior quality (or rejects as i discovered once)

If he is genuinely getting cheaper prices for quality materials fair enough also if he's advising you to chose one over another for good reason fair enough, but it is your decision at the end of the day, not what will be handier for him.

If you give an inch he will take a mile. Be wary of builders who dont like engineers/architects, in my experience it was bull, they were as bent as each other, it was very handy for one to blame the other etc.

Best of Luck, I know it is very stressful!!:)

Mellor

This time you said if, which is important.
Originally, you said he was in breech of contract, we do not know that. Nor do we know that he is rogue!
He may of been perfectly in his rights to do whaty he did, dissmissing him might have you in breech of contract, as I said thread carefully

Builderfromhell

Sorry to hear of your problems. It's stressful enough building even when you have a good builder.

I can understand the builder not wanting you on site all the time. I recently had a client on site at every awkward times, like when I'm pouring foundations and rushing to get steel in ahead of trucks. Same client texted, phoned and emailed me with irrelevant qs all day everyday, at night and at weekends. Rant over.

You may, through no fault of your own, have let things go a bit too far. You need to get an Architect, Engineer, or some other building professional to act on your behalf when dealing with builder. I always find the agent can then be the bad guy (if needs be) and the client and builder can get on fine.
If you now start laying down the law, relations will be strained. You may not have the experience, knowledge to know when the builder is screwing you on workmanship as well as dodgy materials.

sinnerboy

recipio wrote: »

I did say take legal advice. Would'nt you dismiss a rogue builder if advised by your solicitor ? I know I would.

I my experience , a smart solicitor would advise appointing a building professional first , or at least obtaining the advice of a building professional first , BEFORE advising the dismissal of a builder

alinoee

Dinpawon,
you gave very little information. First of all what contract did you sign?
1. is it RIAI, is it lump sum, measured etc.
2. how did you spec the materials and what is included in contract documents?
Generally contractors do substitute some materials but they, as said above, have to equal or better original ones, meet the spec and you have the right to accept/refuse them subject to specific conditions. they cant though affect ( judgment call )the bungalow apperiance unless you agree to them. its quite complicated and its difficult to say anything without more background but in simple words, if he sources different brick, but very similar in appearance, it would be usually accepted. If he is installing artificial slate instead of natural it would be not, as you paying for specified material. as to the site visits you have right to be there all day long every day (contractor have to be notifed and agree to) but be reasonable. ones, twice a week is quite natural and sufficient most of the times.
my advice is to get professional to admin your project at this stage. also, make sure! that all conversations, alterations, instructions etc are written in memos etc and make sure that contractor gets them. by the end of the day people have very selective memory and its much more easier to prove the case with the records.

recipio

sinnerboy wrote: »

I my experience , a smart solicitor would advise appointing a building professional first , or at least obtaining the advice of a building professional first , BEFORE advising the dismissal of a builder

Of course. It seem to me that general advice offered here is taken too literally. We can all be hurlers on the ditch but I'm still looking at crooked slates and a missing drainpipe as a result of a 'builder' who made a hash of an extension for me.I fired him and finished the job myself as best I could.
All I'm saying is don't stick with a builder who is incompetent --you will regret it forever and a day.

gsxr1

unclebill98 wrote: »

Also, is it the norm for builders to hate architects??

I am not sure I agree with that.

I am a carpenter and work with architects all the time.

We work together and advise each other on the best way forward.

Although I do sometimes think the architect that I deal with can get a bit to adventurous at the cost of the builder. for example. making a section of roof super duper strong with a massive RSJ, that he does not have to carry up there:rolleyes:

dinpawon

i now meet him twice a week and have an engineer overlooking the building so things are going well and am nearly there - thank god

thanks a million