How would Ireland do in a War?

Riddle101

This is more of a retorical question but i wonder what your opinions are on how Ireland would do in a war. Do you think we'd get trashed and lose, be able to fight and hold out against and enemy until we can start negotiating peace or so you think we'd actually win. Obviously no one really knows what would happen because it depends on the country but let' say i don't know Cuba(Only an example) decides they want to invade us. Do you think we'd do well to defend us and be able to stick it to them and show the rest of the world we maybe small but we got teeth, or would it be suicide.

I say this because the PDF has come along way in the last 15 years maybe more or less. It's no longer that small peace keeping army with lack of proper weaponary and experience. Now the PDF is more professional and has evolved since those days, and i gotta tell you, i feel a lot more safer with the PDF now then i would if we went back to the 60's or 70's(No offence to any former soldiers of course). So what do you think would happen.

I personally and i'm not being biased but given the circumstances i'd say Ireland would do alright, we may be outnumbered by Cuba and a lot of armies but our ferocity on the battlefield could well keep us in the battle as long as we don't give in. One thing i'd be rather worried about though would be if the enemy used Naval and Air support then i'd be rather worried, because i feel our Air and Naval corps(again no offence to any Naval and Air corp soldiers) are a bit lacking in the ability of proper naval warfare. But none the less we have our ground defence such as the Air Defence and i'm sure we proberly have a naval defence too, can anybody clarify?

Anyway I'm done, now's your turn(hopefully)

minidazzler

This is a more Walter Mitty Question dont you think?

AckwelFoley

Unless we were being attacked by the Isle of Man, i think we may have a problem.

Its a very broad question really, because one big factor would be our agressor, and their agression used.

If china lands on our shores in the morning with 100 boat loads of troops, some nuclear missles and a letter for the president telling her shes out of a job, thre is fcuk all we could do.

If however we were attacked, troop for troop with similar tec, im pretty sure we would have ability of defending ourselvs

Kenjd

We could just build the roads for our invading troops so they could conquer Europe! Then sit back and watch!

arybvtcw0eolkf

In a war or a battle?.

In a war I truely believe that we'd beat anyone, if it takes a year - a generation - or a thousend year's I think we'd beat anyone who invades our shores.

In a battle, ie if our country was to be invaded I think militarily we'd be defeated in a matter of hours and our government would surrender.

Our recent influx of immigrants would leave and our people would rise up against our invaders.

ex_infantry man

Mairt wrote: »

In a war or a battle?.

In a war I truely believe that we'd beat anyone, if it takes a year - a generation - or a thousend year's I think we'd beat anyone who invades our shores.

In a battle, ie if our country was to be invaded I think militarily we'd be defeated in a matter of hours and our government would surrender.

Our recent influx of immigrants would leave and our people would rise up against our invaders.

it has been done before!!!! and so was the foundation of our state!

arybvtcw0eolkf

ex_infantry man wrote: »

it has been done before!!!! and so was the foundation of our state!

What?.

Grizzly 45

A full on invasion less than possibly the Icelandic police force or the Aran islands[with apologies to those two fine races:)].We are up the creek,minus a paddle,boat and lifejacket.We could possibly revert to a gureilla /partisan type war and make it VERY uncomfortable for any invader to hold onto,IF we were prepared for it,and had the people behind us.
I have always thought should be built into a national defence policy like the Swiss.Who have/had set up and prepared Switzerland for such an eventuality.

In a battle,with proper motivation,equipment and leadership,the Irish fighting man is second to none!We have proved this historically thru the ages.Winning wars and battles for everyone but ourselves.:rolleyes:

ex_infantry man

Mairt wrote: »

What?.

well like the british empire did invade our country rape and pillage our towns and villages for over 800 years we fought that did,nt we!!!!!!!!!

williambonney

ex_infantry man wrote: »

well like the british empire did invade our country rape and pillage our towns and villages for over 800 years we fought that did,nt we!!!!!!!!!

The Normans who conquered England in 1066 invaded Ireland in 1169. when were we ever invaded by the “British Empire”?

Black Swan

Remember a couple of Tom Cruise lines from Top Gun:
1916: "Crashed and burned."
1922: "Lookin pretty good so far."

ChapOfDRyans

isnt the same topic in the walter mitty forum

minidazzler

williambonney wrote: »

The Normans who conquered England in 1066 invaded Ireland in 1169. when were we ever invaded by the “British Empire”?

Cromwell?

Grizzly 45

Try maybe for Cromwell.... English invasion? The term Britan or more specifically Great Britan came about I belive late 17th early 18 century?

PRND

ex_infantry man wrote: »

well like the british empire did invade our country rape and pillage our towns and villages for over 800 years we fought that did,nt we!!!!!!!!!

Your great grandparents and their families must have had a tough time being raped and pillaged for their entire existence.

You're talking about a period which, for the majority, was a peaceful and proud part of the British Empire.

Where people willingly enlisted and went to fight elsewhere.

arybvtcw0eolkf

PRND wrote: »

Your great grandparents and their families must have had a tough time being raped and pillaged for their entire existence.

.

Well I can trace my great-grandparents on one side back to leaving Limerick at the end of the famine, while I've no idea if anyone was raped their land and the food grown on it were certainly pillaged by the British.

The same Great-grandparent's family still have items taken (by them) from the dead body of a twelve year old daughter shot dead on Townsend St. (Dublin) by the 'Black and Tans'.

But getting back to the topic of the thread.

I think if we're invaded again (vikings or Brit's I could care less for that argument) I think we'd be militarily defeated in a matter of hours but as we've done through history we'd rise and fight to a victory someday.

Kaiser_Sma

We haven't really got a complete armed forces, nothing really to fight air or navel power and a rather limtied anti armour capability. If you think having a partisan history is enough to deter even the most determined invasion, then you should see how many hundreds of years it took ireland to be liberated the last time . Also people are rather softer here now then the used to be. No genetic irish warrior type is gonna help us either.

c-90

^^^ kinda gives the impression that moral in the df is bad, is it?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

We haven't really got a complete armed forces, nothing really to fight air or navel power and a rather limtied anti armour capability. If you think having a partisan history is enough to deter even the most determined invasion, then you should see how many hundreds of years it took ireland to be liberated the last time . Also people are rather softer here now then the used to be. No genetic irish warrior type is gonna help us either.

But thats what the British and American's can't understand in Iraq and Afghanistan, whats inside the heart of a risen people.

Do you think the leader's of 1916 thought for a moment they were going to see a free and undivided Ireland?.. Or their forefathers?.. No they didn't, but they knew that someday our time would come.

It hasn't come yet, and I don't think I'll see a tri-colour fly over a free and undivided Ireland but it doesn't bother me, because I know that someday it will.

And while I agree that a lot of Irish now are probably gone a bit soft, it doesn't take a whole population to rise and beat an invader - 'The war of the flea' my friend

Fratton Fred

I guess a lot would come down to who invaded and what methods they used to quell any insurgency.

If they followed the Israeli approach then we'd be fecked because they bulldoze the homes of suicide bombers etc with basicaly no regard for human life. Almost akin to the nazi approach of killing the wives and families of resistance fighters.

However, as any invader would probably want to use the population for something then they would probably want to keep most of them alive, it's not as if Ireland has huge amounts of natural resources or if any neighbouring countries consider it part of their territory (Any more!).

As for a straight forward scrap, the Irish military wouldn;t last too long as any aggressor would no doubt have complete air supremecy from day one. Doesn;t matter how good the ground troops are, wars are won from the air.

daithicarr

think its a daft question, as we are an island you need a relativly large military to ship all the troops and materials here, and we couldnt stand up to Pakistan if they some how felt inclined to invade and no one felt like stoppping them.

our geography is our best defense, there is no one near us to invade.
the only possible scenario for a war, would really be with england, and they would win hands down. they would probably be in central Dublin an hour after declaring war.

of course we tried to Invade Canada once (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids)
and one of their subs ran in to trouble a few years ago of our coast
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Chicoutimi_(SSK_879)#October_5.2C_2004_incident)

Maybe they were scouting the way for an Invasion. we should build up our forces and keep an eye on them.

as for resistance/partisan warfare, where would we get the weapons?
The IRA had a hard time getting weapons in past our tiny security forces.
Its not as if me have massive stockpiles lying about, or even a large number of privately held firearms.

Maybe we could make pike's and rush the bastards, just like 1798 (except this time they have machine guns, tanks, laser guded missiles)

Thomas_S_Hunterson

I'd say our best bet would probably be to legitamise and mobilise the IRA tbh:p

IRLConor

daithicarr wrote: »

The IRA had a hard time getting weapons in past our tiny security forces.

The drug smugglers seem to be doing OK. I suspect that they have a bigger support base than the IRA have had for quite a while.

daithicarr wrote: »

Its not as if me have massive stockpiles lying about, or even a large number of privately held firearms.

We've about 250,000 legally held firearms I think.

Riddle101

Sean_K wrote: »

I'd say our best bet would probably be to legitamise and mobilise the IRA tbh:p

lol War For Independence II

Anyway i didn't know whether to put this on Walter Mitty or this one but i thought it wouldn't matter so much since it's all miltary talk

arybvtcw0eolkf

daithicarr wrote: »

think its a daft question, as we are an island you need a relativly large military to ship all the troops and materials here, and we couldnt stand up to Pakistan if they some how felt inclined to invade and no one felt like stoppping them.

our geography is our best defense, there is no one near us to invade.
the only possible scenario for a war, would really be with england, and they would win hands down. they would probably be in central Dublin an hour after declaring war.

of course we tried to Invade Canada once (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids)
and one of their subs ran in to trouble a few years ago of our coast
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Chicoutimi_(SSK_879)#October_5.2C_2004_incident)

Maybe they were scouting the way for an Invasion. we should build up our forces and keep an eye on them.

as for resistance/partisan warfare, where would we get the weapons?
The IRA had a hard time getting weapons in past our tiny security forces.
Its not as if me have massive stockpiles lying about, or even a large number of privately held firearms.

Maybe we could make pike's and rush the bastards, just like 1798 (except this time they have machine guns, tanks, laser guded missiles)

Let me guess, your about 12?.

minidazzler

daithicarr wrote: »

as for resistance/partisan warfare, where would we get the weapons?
The IRA had a hard time getting weapons in past our tiny security forces.
Its not as if me have massive stockpiles lying about, or even a large number of privately held firearms.

Maybe we could make pike's and rush the bastards, just like 1798 (except this time they have machine guns, tanks, laser guded missiles)

Everyone who knows a Yank raise their hand! There are a few hundred ways we could get weapons into this country.
The Germans would help us
The English(unless its them invading) would help us
The Americans would colonise/help us
The French would probably lend a hand
The Israeli's Might do us a few favours


Most countries in this world Like Ireland so in the Unlikely event we are invaded I think we have a few buddies to help us.

Secondly, Pikes??? Are you serious??? Are you really trivialising the 1798 rebelion? You may be born in Ireland but that does not make you Irish.
1798 laid the ground work for 1916. It gave people spirit.

Do you wanna take a stab at that too? Oh only a few eejits went out with some rifles and sung a song.

Never underestimate the stubborness of a true Irish man when his country is being fecked over.

daithicarr

minidazzler wrote: »

You may be born in Ireland but that does not make you Irish.
.

On what grounds do you question my "irishness" , maybe you could define Irishness while your at it.

I am merely pointing out that we dont really have the military ability to defend our selves, or the capacity
i was not trivialising the 1798 rebelion, i was just poitning out that we dont really have much in the way of modern weaponry that was help facilitate a resistance.
Sure there are about 250,000 legaly held firearms, but they are mostly shotguns or old hunting rifles. i sure as hell wouldnt want to be up against a modern army that can blow me to bits a long time before i could get close enough to use my shotgun, and with body armours and other protections used by modern infantry id be better of weilding my shotgun as a club.

Militarily defeating an openent isint an option, point out one occasion in the last 600 years we managed that?

The only option would be large scale civil disobediance and trying and get world public support behind us maybe with the aid of a military wing such as in the war of indepenace. of course the tactics would have to completely change, as flying columns etc wouldnt have a hope in the 21st Century

I am sure weapons could be obtained, but nothing even aproaching the scale of that held by the resistance in Iraq, a region awash with weapons

toiletduck

IRLConor wrote:

We've about 250,000 legally held firearms I think.

Really??

Anyways lads it's all irrelevant. Mounting an insurrection against an occupying force? Then take their weapons...

IRLConor

toiletduck wrote: »

Really?

Sorry, my number was a little high. Here are numbers that were read out in the Dail in April 2005:

[B]Category              2000        2001       2002       2003       2004 [/B]
Rifles/Air Rifles   39,850      40,281     41,650     43,246     45,225
Shotguns           167,202     166,231    167,157    168,640    168,177
Crossbows               60          64         68         68         74
Pistols/Revolvers        0           0          0          0        120
Total              207,112     206,576    208,875    211,954    213,596

Now, those numbers cover the firearms held on licenses, I suspect they do not cover firearms owned by clubs and held on club authorisations or firearms held by firearms dealers pending sale. The numbers should be broadly correct though.

Fratton Fred

IRLConor wrote: »

Sorry, my number was a little high. Here are numbers that were read out in the Dail in April 2005:

[B]Category              2000        2001       2002       2003       2004 [/B]
Rifles/Air Rifles   39,850      40,281     41,650     43,246     45,225
Shotguns           167,202     166,231    167,157    168,640    168,177
Crossbows               60          64         68         68         74
Pistols/Revolvers        0           0          0          0        120
Total              207,112     206,576    208,875    211,954    213,596

Now, those numbers cover the firearms held on licenses, I suspect they do not cover firearms owned by clubs and held on club authorisations or firearms held by firearms dealers pending sale. The numbers should be broadly correct though.

or the weapons the de-commisioning body missed. I expect there are a few SAMs hanging around somewhere up north:rolleyes:

daithicarr

Still not much to start an inserection with, but to send people out armed with what we have would just result in a lot of dead young men on our part a few rifles and shotguns , plus 120 hand guns aint much against any military force , course it all depends on who we are fighting, we could beat iceland, and luxembourg if we could sneak through France un-noticed
. i dont think we face any credible threat to invasion. any invasion of ireland would have to be carried out with England and the EU's will. we have america to one side and Europe to the other. if some one can over come them to get to us, well were ****ed.

IRLConor

daithicarr wrote: »

Still not much to start an inserection with, but to send people out armed with what we have would just result in a lot of dead young men on our part a few rifles and shotguns, plus 120 hand guns aint much against any military force ,

TBH, it would take some set of nuts to go after an invasion force with a shotgun or a handgun. How many firearms were available to civilians in Ireland in the early 20th century?

(Also, the number of handguns in the country is much larger than that now. 2004 was the first year that they could be licensed. The High Court only issued its ruling at the end of July 2004 so 120 represents less than 6 months worth of licensing.)

Fratton Fred

daithicarr wrote: »

i dont think we face any credible threat to invasion. any invasion of ireland would have to be carried out with England and the EU's will. we have america to one side and Europe to the other. if some one can over come them to get to us, well were ****ed.

Europe and the US aside, Britain sees Ireland as being strategically important. there is no way britain would allow a hostile country to invade Ireland.

Pathfinder

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Europe and the US aside, Britain sees Ireland as being strategically important. there is no way britain would allow a hostile country to invade Ireland.

Or allow a hostile power to destabalise Ireland via militant republicanism.

the GALL

Pathfinder wrote: »

Or allow a hostile power to destabalise Ireland via militant republicanism.

even if that was the will of the people??

Riddle101

daithicarr wrote: »

On what grounds do you question my "irishness" , maybe you could define Irishness while your at it.

I am merely pointing out that we dont really have the military ability to defend our selves, or the capacity
i was not trivialising the 1798 rebelion, i was just poitning out that we dont really have much in the way of modern weaponry that was help facilitate a resistance.
Sure there are about 250,000 legaly held firearms, but they are mostly shotguns or old hunting rifles. i sure as hell wouldnt want to be up against a modern army that can blow me to bits a long time before i could get close enough to use my shotgun, and with body armours and other protections used by modern infantry id be better of weilding my shotgun as a club.

Shotguns and Hunting Rifles? What about those Steyrs, GPMGs and BAPs, surely they count don't they

OS119

the GALL wrote: »

even if that was the will of the people??

if 'the will of the people' - as the product of an educated, informed and democratically arrived at debate - is to intentionally jeopardise the interests of a vastly more more powerful state (which has a historically proven track record of, if neccesary, protecting its interests with considerable force) then the likely consequences of that decision are entirely deserved (not the word i'm looking for, but a bit like the word i'm looking for). and foreseeable.

much as we might like the world to be rather more courtroom and rather less jungle, the ultimate rule in the world is force. if you can impose your will, and no-one, through either force or economics, is able - or willing - to accept the potential consequences of challenging the imposition of that will, then you've won, regardless of the morality of your actions.

OS119

Riddle101 wrote: »

Shotguns and Hunting Rifles? What about those Steyrs, GPMGs and BAPs, surely they count don't they

no, they don't.

they only count during occupations - and only then during occupations where the occupier doesn't hang 50 locals for each of its own soldiers killed - or use heavy Artillery as part of its 'intimate infantry support'.

occupations have somewhat gone out of fashion of late, and that political fact married to the frankly ridiculous damage that a modern air force can do to a state without ever getting within range of most Surface-to-Air defensive systems means that 'conventional' invasions are uneccessary unless you really, really need the land, rather than just need to break things until they are no threat to you or your interests and then go home.

Ireland has nothing anyone needs on, or under its landmass. its offshore oil and gas can be 'hijacked' with little effort by any european power who likes the look of them, and should the use of Irish ports or airfields be required by some other power for the prosecution of a war in which Ireland was not involved, they could be taken by force and any resistance to that 'land-grab' could be physically and politcally neutralised by the above mentioned use - or threat of use - of Air Power.

not nice, but thats the ****ty end of the being 'small and inoffensive' stick.

the GALL

OS119 wrote: »

if 'the will of the people' - as the product of an educated, informed and democratically arrived at debate - is to intentionally jeopardise the interests of a vastly more more powerful state (which has a historically proven track record of, if neccesary, protecting its interests with considerable force) then the likely consequences of that decision are entirely deserved (not the word i'm looking for, but a bit like the word i'm looking for). and foreseeable.

much as we might like the world to be rather more courtroom and rather less jungle, the ultimate rule in the world is force. if you can impose your will, and no-one, through either force or economics, is able - or willing - to accept the potential consequences of challenging the imposition of that will, then you've won, regardless of the morality of your actions.

well put.
Thats (nearly) every countries forgein(sp?) policy.
For a country to invade Ireland for what ever reason and nothing short of killing every citizen in the country, allies present and future and also enslaving any survivors, then the answer is Ireland would prevail and be victorious against any attacking force .
You'll never beat the Irish:D:D:D

daithicarr

i think we would do just as well as any other nation of a similar size. but we wouldnt be immediatly equiped to deal with a military threat, like any country we could build up if there was a threat. we are wealthy so we could probably buy a lot of weapons.

But as it currently stands, if some country woke up in the morning and decided to invade us. we would have little to offer as resistance. some public firearms and the fairly small amount of weapons held by our defence forces would be completely inadequte. The rules of war have changed a good bit since 1920. a few thousand men with Rifle doesnt have the same impact it had then.

sharps

Riddle101 wrote: »

This is more of a retorical question but i wonder what your opinions are on how Ireland would do in a war. Do you think we'd get trashed and lose, be able to fight and hold out against and enemy until we can start negotiating peace or so you think we'd actually win. Obviously no one really knows what would happen because it depends on the country but let' say i don't know Cuba(Only an example) decides they want to invade us. Do you think we'd do well to defend us and be able to stick it to them and show the rest of the world we maybe small but we got teeth, or would it be suicide.

I say this because the PDF has come along way in the last 15 years maybe more or less. It's no longer that small peace keeping army with lack of proper weaponary and experience. Now the PDF is more professional and has evolved since those days, and i gotta tell you, i feel a lot more safer with the PDF now then i would if we went back to the 60's or 70's(No offence to any former soldiers of course). So what do you think would happen.

I personally and i'm not being biased but given the circumstances i'd say Ireland would do alright, we may be outnumbered by Cuba and a lot of armies but our ferocity on the battlefield could well keep us in the battle as long as we don't give in. One thing i'd be rather worried about though would be if the enemy used Naval and Air support then i'd be rather worried, because i feel our Air and Naval corps(again no offence to any Naval and Air corp soldiers) are a bit lacking in the ability of proper naval warfare. But none the less we have our ground defence such as the Air Defence and i'm sure we proberly have a naval defence too, can anybody clarify?

Anyway I'm done, now's your turn(hopefully)

With only 10,000 in the army, 1ooo in the navy and only a couple of hundred in the air corps, we couldnt defend ourselves against the smurfs. We can only bearly field one proper battalion for the un.

minidazzler

sharps wrote: »

With only 10,000 in the army, 1ooo in the navy and only a couple of hundred in the air corps, we couldnt defend ourselves against the smurfs. We can only bearly field one proper battalion for the un.

There are just over 8500 in the Army, 1600 + (around) in the navy and ~ 950 in the Air Corps.

We are small but then we have the Reserves.

13,000 (on the Books at least) in the Army Reserve, 400ish in the Naval Service Reserve.

We are grand with the amount we have!

arybvtcw0eolkf

minidazzler wrote: »

There are just over 8500 in the Army, 1600 + (around) in the navy and ~ 950 in the Air Corps.

We are small but then we have the Reserves.

13,000 (on the Books at least) in the Army Reserve, 400ish in the Naval Service Reserve.

We are grand with the amount we have!

Yea but if a detachment of Wombles joined the Smurfs we're fecked.

Anyway, although the thread is a bit of Walter Mitty I'll get serious for a moment.

We've never really been in any danger of invasion, not since those bloody Vikings. We'll never be the aggressor and since the peace process kicked in in Northern Ireland our greatest threat is gangland.

So, could our defence forces be used (effectively) to combat gangland, we are after all an aid to the civil power's - time to use us?.

OS119

Mairt wrote: »

Yea but if a detachment of Wombles joined the Smurfs we're fecked.

Anyway, although the thread is a bit of Walter Mitty I'll get serious for a moment.

We've never really been in any danger of invasion, not since those bloody Vikings. We'll never be the aggressor and since the peace process kicked in in Northern Ireland our greatest threat is gangland.

So, could our defence forces be used (effectively) to combat gangland, we are after all an aid to the civil power's - time to use us?.

your question, a very valid one, perhaps is the question arising not just for the DF, but for the government - and society as a whole.

given that there is no longer a subversion/terrorist threat to the state, and no conceivable conventional threat to the state or its territories (well, not one you could fight for more that 24hrs even if you increaced your defence budget 10-fold), what is the point of the DF?

the debate is between an expeditionary force able to operate worldwide alongside other 1st world forces in pursuit of whatever you choose, or a Gengarmerie/Coastguard force where the resources of the DF act in support of the GS.

the arguments for the former have been made before - indeed by me - and they appear to be shared by the government (though of course without the cash required to acheive the objective), however a billion €uro a year would fund a force well able to a) swamp particular areas with 'Gendarmes' during particular anti-gang operations, b) provide significant ISTAR (Intelligence, Surveilence, Targetting, Analysis and Reconaisance) support to GS in the shape of Aircraft, SIGINT, surveilence trained personnel and firearms trained officers, and c) immeasurably strengthen your border/coastline security.

daithicarr

i think retaining some small defence forces is a good idea, we were caught with our pants around our ankles in 1939 despite plenty or warnings and again in 1969 when the troubles broke out.

You can never tell whats install in the future. while there is always the potential for violence in and over the north, we should maintain some capacity

darkman2

Riddle101 wrote: »

This is more of a retorical question but i wonder what your opinions are on how Ireland would do in a war. Do you think we'd get trashed and lose, be able to fight and hold out against and enemy until we can start negotiating peace or so you think we'd actually win. Obviously no one really knows what would happen because it depends on the country but let' say i don't know Cuba(Only an example) decides they want to invade us. Do you think we'd do well to defend us and be able to stick it to them and show the rest of the world we maybe small but we got teeth, or would it be suicide.

I say this because the PDF has come along way in the last 15 years maybe more or less. It's no longer that small peace keeping army with lack of proper weaponary and experience. Now the PDF is more professional and has evolved since those days, and i gotta tell you, i feel a lot more safer with the PDF now then i would if we went back to the 60's or 70's(No offence to any former soldiers of course). So what do you think would happen.

I personally and i'm not being biased but given the circumstances i'd say Ireland would do alright, we may be outnumbered by Cuba and a lot of armies but our ferocity on the battlefield could well keep us in the battle as long as we don't give in. One thing i'd be rather worried about though would be if the enemy used Naval and Air support then i'd be rather worried, because i feel our Air and Naval corps(again no offence to any Naval and Air corp soldiers) are a bit lacking in the ability of proper naval warfare. But none the less we have our ground defence such as the Air Defence and i'm sure we proberly have a naval defence too, can anybody clarify?

Anyway I'm done, now's your turn(hopefully)

The simple fact is Ireland has never had the capacity to defend itself under any circumstances. We are in a very precarious posistion if a war was to break out close to our shores - some seem to believe this cant and wont happen. Never mind what the department of defence says about training etc - we are in very serious trouble if/when war breaks out close to us. The reason is because of Irelands feckless penny pinching attitude to even taking any responsibility for even a skeleton force that would make an aggressor's time here 'uncomfortable'. Right now Ireland is seen in Europe as the weakest and rightly so. We are the weakest. We actually have no defence capability at all.

Make no mistake about it

1. We have NO air defence
2. We have NO naval defence
3. We have a mickey mouse 'army' that has no credible firepower and only a few APC's that would not equip a single battalion and only has 12,000 permanent troops (which IIRC cannot even march in formation properly! - and thats the 'permanent' ones) most of which are deaf at the same time.

Thats what happens with no investment. The first priorty of any government is to protect and establish its borders. We have never done that.

I wish the Irish people actually knew how vulnerable we are instead of mouthing off about neutrality as an excuse. We cant even defend that!

We spend roughly a billion a year on defence - this would need to be multiplied by at least 5.

ciaran2008

Say another country declared war on Ireland (for a reason use your imagination)
European defence ministers would convene a meeting as a matter of urgency and should any form of military force approach European air space or waters the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc would all scramble fighter jets to intercept the enemy and then NATO, the UN, European Parliament and even Congress would hold emergency meetings etc. So yeah I think were safe people!

TheInquisitor

In general ireland has a decent army. We have the latest weapons etc but we are seriously lacking in the area of tanks. We have 0 air power and enough air defense to defend a quarter of Dublin. I think the only way ireland would win against an invader is if it just defended the big cities and towns where they could launch hit and run attacks.

We just dont have the numbers... Although 74 million people do claim irish citizenship... so maybe they'd come back and join the fight!

OS119

ciaran2008 wrote: »

Say another country declared war on Ireland (for a reason use your imagination)
European defence ministers would convene a meeting as a matter of urgency and should any form of military force approach European air space or waters the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc would all scramble fighter jets to intercept the enemy and then NATO, the UN, European Parliament and even Congress would hold emergency meetings etc. So yeah I think were safe people!

actually a rather more realistic scenario is this:

North Sea Oil and Gas is running out, Europe is decommisioning is nuclear power stations and has nothing to replace them with, and the Russians are playing silly buggers with Europes Oil and Gas supply for some marginal willy-waving contest in Eastern Europe. Britain, Norway, France, Germany, Spain and Italy see a small country on their western seaboard that has no defensive capability, a large offshore Oil and Gas field, and who'se economy was built with subsidies from western Europe.

they decide that perhaps this country would like to make a 'contribution' to the economic well-being and energy security of the EU that previously had given it so much wealth.

they send their Navies to 'persuade' this little country with no defensive capability and who stands aloof from mutual defence treaties....

the US Congress says nothing, because this internal EU squabble brings more Oil and Gas onto the market and therefore brings the price of US petrol down.

no idea who this little country could be though, but if the lights start to dim in western Europe they might find themselves sans recently exploited offshore Oil and Gas fields....

ETA: i have to ask, what exactly has Ireland done for the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc to deserve such resolute defence?

ciaran2008

OS119 wrote: »

actually a rather more realistic scenario is this:

North Sea Oil and Gas is running out, Europe is decommisioning is nuclear power stations and has nothing to replace them with, and the Russians are playing silly buggers with Europes Oil and Gas supply for some marginal willy-waving contest in Eastern Europe. Britain, Norway, France, Germany, Spain and Italy see a small country on their western seaboard that has no defensive capability, a large offshore Oil and Gas field, and who'se economy was built with subsidies from western Europe.

they decide that perhaps this country would like to make a 'contribution' to the economic well-being and energy security of the EU that previously had given it so much wealth.

they send their Navies to 'persuade' this little country with no defensive capability and who stands aloof from mutual defence treaties....

the US Congress says nothing, because this internal EU squabble brings more Oil and Gas onto the market and therefore brings the price of US petrol down.

no idea who this little country could be though, but if the lights start to dim in western Europe they might find themselves sans recently exploited offshore Oil and Gas fields....

ETA: i have to ask, what exactly has Ireland done for the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc to deserve such resolute defence?

Realistic?? Dont know what givs you that idea!! Large offshore oil and gas field??

European Defense Community (EDC) thats all Ireland needs!!

cros13

hurmph...

The thing is Irish ppl on the whole assume we possess a defensive capability which we do not. Despite the fact that our military capabilities affect our place in the international community and our intelligence capabilities affect our economic health.

It's well known that throughout history and indeed today, the intelligence resources of nations have been used for the purposes of commercial espionage.
G2 and the gardai do not have the capability to defend us or our livelihoods.
I work on DoD contracts, I know this first hand. I've met the people involved and they didn't impress.

We need, as a society, to make a decision. Either provide the funding for the defence of our nation, or disband the DF entirely.

If we were to follow the path of providing protection for our country the prudent course would be to provide a small effective force trained and equipped towards the assumed reality that they would be facing a numerically superior foe.

One of the best sources of equipment would be norway and sweden.
Sweden made the decision not to join regional alliances or align themselves with any such group. They also made the choice to source the majority of their military hardware internally. Sweden excels in the production of anti-armor weaponry and aircraft. Norway with it's extensive coastline and marine resources has again sources internally its miltary hardware.

My view of an irish DF with optimum bang for buck would be as follows:

Of course significant changes to the training regimens for all services.


Air Corps:

Reconstituted as an air force independent from the army.
3 Air Bases - Baldonnell w/h lengthened runway, west cork/south/kerry, galway

Retirement of the cessna 172s.
Retirement of the Super King Air
2 squadrons of Saab JAS-39 Gripen Swing-role aircraft.
Purchase of L-39, L-159 or Hawks for the purpose of jet training.
Relegation of the Pilatus PC-9Ms to basic to intermediate training. We use these as our front line aircraft atm. lol. Condor Airlines in germany operates 10 of these (vs. our 8) for target-towing.

Add three Saab Erieye Airbourne Early Warning aircraft.
Add two C-130J Hercules Transport Aircraft.
12+ Long Range UAVs

Retain AgustaWestland AW139s (inc. the 2 on order)
Increase the Eurocopter EC-135 order +3 for Garda Air Support, and +3 for military use.
Add three NHI NH-90 Medium Helicopters
Retain CASA CN-235s
Possibly use additional CN-235s rather than C-130Js to save costs.

Retain Britten-Norman Defender 4000


Naval Service:

Majority of existing vessels to be reassigned to a new Coast Guard w/h LÉ Róisín as the flagship.
Establishment of a proper Navy Diving school.
Three Bases - Sligo/Donegal, Kerry, Wicklow

Three Fridtjof Nansen/Álvaro de Bazán class frigates.
Four/Five Visby Class Corvettes
Five Skjold class patrol boats
LÉ Niamh converted for SIGINT
Seven CB-90s under the jurisdiction of the Army.

Addition of two/three German Type 212A submarines.

Army:

22-26 Challenger II-E Main Battle Tanks
Order BTR-T or Puma Infantry Fighting Vehicles.
Order Iveco Light Multirole Vehicles
Maintain Nissan Patrols gradually replaced with Toyota LandCruisers

Increase order for Javelin Anti-Tank Missiles
SRAW Anti-Tank Missiles
Retain AUG rifle gradually replace with IMI TAR-21 Tavor
Retain USP Pistol.
Retain FN MAG
Retire AT-4
Add FN P90 as support weapon.
Replace L96 sniper rifle with M110 SASS
Retain RBS-70 G to A Missile
Order MEADS if available or Patriot PAC-3 for point defence
Order SA-20 Triumf for general air defence
Order 120mm Mortars