Civil Service - EO exams

The_Conductor

dubabroad wrote: »

I have seen on public jobs that they re advertising for AOs.
Can anyone explain to me the difference between AO and EO positions?
In terms of salary, wht they would require from applicants and also long temr prospects for promotion etc?
I did not know about EO jobs until too late so filed to apply. I understand that they will not come up for about 3 years.
Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
I presently work in uk civil service at HEO grade but need to move back to ireland fairly soon so prepared to take a cut in wages etc
Apologies if this is off thread

AO is similar to HEO salarywise, but is honours graduate recruitment level, and would not have the same staff responsibilities that a HEO would have. AO is fast-tracked for promotion purposes to AP though.

Longterm prospects for promotion really depend on the department and the location you are in (and whether you are prepared to move). Under the benchmarking programme, it was conceded that 40% of all promotions be open to external candidates- the individual departments will have their own promotion panels in place, based on examination and competitive interview (note: in bygone years tenure was often seen as a deciding factor- not anymore!!!). For every 10 positions that become vacant in departments, 4 are ringfenced for external candidates- 6 for internal (or serving civil servants).

This circular details current salaries for the different grades (note:go to page 9 Standard scale for the post 1995 new comer salary scale- it starts at €34,275 and goes all the way to €56,510 (with 2 Long Service Increments after 3 years and 6 years at the max of the scales respectively).

The Irish civil service is based on the British model (indeed it was inherited from the British administration)- so the different ranks are broadly similar to their British equivalents.

The AO grade used in the past to be largely confined to the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners- and to this day you will find a preponderance of this grade there- of late other Departments are using it as a manner of recruiting highly skilled intelligent graduates- as the grade is fast tracked for promotion- the intention obviously is to populate Departments with very competent managers of the future. Promotion of course is subject to- 1. Successful completion of the 2 year probationary period, 2. sick leave of an acceptable level (this can be tricky now that Saturday and Sundays are counted towards your days), 3. Written examination covering the competencies considered necessary for whatever grade you are going for, 4. Competitive interview. Internal promotion is exactly the same as external recruitment- you have to do the exams etc (in the past this was not the case).

Depending on the specific AO post you are going for, qualifications in addition an honours degree may be considered necessary (tends to be those who have their bar exams done, successfully completed their professional tax exams, CIMA or ACCA certified etc (you get the picture)). I.e. those familiar with law or accountancy...... The job description will specify which qualifications are necessary. (Similarly- you need an IT degree/masters to go for an ICT/ISD role).

Hope this helps,

Shane

druss

dubabroad wrote: »

I have seen on public jobs that they re advertising for AOs.
Can anyone explain to me the difference between AO and EO positions?
In terms of salary, wht they would require from applicants and also long temr prospects for promotion etc?
I did not know about EO jobs until too late so filed to apply. I understand that they will not come up for about 3 years.
Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
I presently work in uk civil service at HEO grade but need to move back to ireland fairly soon so prepared to take a cut in wages etc
Apologies if this is off thread

I think the AO UK equivelant is the Fast Stream programme, as in it is seen as a good entry point for top graduates, working with policy etc, etc. However in some departments, there is no real distinction between AO and HEO.

An EO is generally seen as a junior management role.

See here:

http://www.publicjobs.ie/en/civilservice/employee-profiles.asp

And here:
http://www.publicjobs.ie/en/civilservice/structure.asp

Salaries are here:

http://www.pseu.ie/html/Pay.html#Payrate_Page

You may be able to get your UK experience taken into account, but it'd still be a paycut.

druss

Snap, smccarrick!

The_Conductor

Ps- there is an AO grade in the UK civil service- its a promotion grade for AAs (the equivalent of SO being a promotion grade for our COs).

Re: Pay- going by the UK payscales quoted here, the Irish HEO grade (and AO grade) are actually paid considerably more than their UK equivalents (particularly at current exchange rates). Annual leave entitlements are considerably lower though (plus we have 3 fewer bankholidays too! )

Leave entitlements here are-

21 days for EO, rising to 22 days after 5 years, and 23 days after 10 years
23 days for AO, rising to 27 days after 5 years, and 29 days after 10 years
27 days for HEO, rising to 28 days after 5 years, and 29 days after 10 years

Shane

dubabroad

Thanks lot for all of the input.
I do have an honours degree (in a scientific discipline). I would hope that academically speaking that would qualify?
I did not really have any specific department in mind and I would be willing to move.
When you commented re accountancy/law qualifications, you said that they would be particularly attractive to the dept of finance. I unfortunately don't have any additional qualifications along those lines as I have been working in a quite a defined scientific area for Defra (Dept of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs). Would the absence of law/financial traning rule me out of the running?
Also, when applying, does one specify what department/area or is it simply a general application to the AO role?
Sorry for all the questions and I appreciate the advice.

The_Conductor

Well the Irish Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (and Forestry!) (its the equivalent of DEFRA), will be taking on quite a few staff, including at the AO level, over the next while, as its moving to Portlaoise. While you don't get to specify which Department you are going for- when you apply, if you are successful at the exam, and then the interview- you can tell them that you are only interested in certain Departments or certain locations (it worked for me )

With a Science degree- obviously you are not going for the AO Finance Officer in the Revenue Commissioners- but there are a myriad of other options!

Also something not mentioned is that as a new AO you have your "Home Department" where you spend your initial probationary period, before you go out to another Department (to broaden your horizons!)- and then back to your Home Department again. Its a great way to see how the different departments function (as they often have very little in common with each other).

notlongleft

i m going for the AO in the revenue - currently doin my final tax exams and I am a qualified accountant - aca, was wondering if I manage somehow to get by the apt tests - where abouts on the salary range would i fall in with these qualifications?

question for people who did well on the job simulation - were u just totally and brutally honest or did you answer what u think they want to hear? just wondering if your answers later on in the test contradicte what you ve answered before and whether it would come thru that you are just telling them what they want to hear?? however I have to say i dont really know what kind of person they want to hire anyway!!!

The_Conductor

notlongleft wrote: »

i m going for the AO in the revenue - currently doin my final tax exams and I am a qualified accountant - aca, was wondering if I manage somehow to get by the apt tests - where abouts on the salary range would i fall in with these qualifications?

question for people who did well on the job simulation - were u just totally and brutally honest or did you answer what u think they want to hear? just wondering if your answers later on in the test contradicte what you ve answered before and whether it would come thru that you are just telling them what they want to hear?? however I have to say i dont really know what kind of person they want to hire anyway!!!

If its a specified requirement for the job, you simply come in at the bottom of the scale (the job would attract an allowance, which would make it more favourable than the regular AO though- and given the nature of the job, its a reasonable expectation that it would be fast tracked to AP within a few years). If they are work relevant qualifications, in addition to those specified by the job, there is a circular relating to the awarding of increments on recruitment (will see if I can find it). As far as I know its a maximum of 3 increments (under unusual circumstances), and is most often used to try to attract candidates with experience in working in the private sector in that particular area- in recognition of the higher salaries in the private sector (though at the moment salaries for new starts in some areas (e.g. solicitors) are in freefall).

With respect of the aptitude test- don't try guessing what they are looking for. Unless you have actually worked at that rank for a protracted period of time, you'd be pulling assumptions out of thin air. Its very possible that your guesses might be the polar opposite of what the job actually entails- and might taint what you expect of the job were you to be offered it. Often the honest answers, mundane though they may be, are far more pertinent than the convoluted ones........

S12

Hi there, thinking of going for the general AO position as well and looking for advice from people who have been through it before. Does anybody know if your degree discipline matters? (I have an arts degree & masters, as well as some management experience) Also, do you know if they exam is usually on a weekday morning/afternoon or a weekend? I'm worried about getting off work as they seem to give short notice. Any advice welcome!

druss

S12 wrote: »

Hi there, thinking of going for the general AO position as well and looking for advice from people who have been through it before. Does anybody know if your degree discipline matters? (I have an arts degree & masters, as well as some management experience) Also, do you know if they exam is usually on a weekday morning/afternoon or a weekend? I'm worried about getting off work as they seem to give short notice. Any advice welcome!

The degree discipline won't matter for the general AO job. It's a competency based interview, so if you have the specified educational qualifcations and can demonstrate the competencies, you're in!

Depending on application numbers, the exams can be scheduled for both mornings and evenings. Occasionally weekends too.

They will normally try to accomadate you if they have available space at another session though. But that is obviously at your own risk.

denot08

I have applied for the 3rd sec/JD position and it seems that alot of people apply, just wondering how they actually rank you. Obvioulsy it's based on your performance in the exam but if say 100 people score the same how do they rank between them. How many people do they typically call for interview and does everyone who applies get called to do the exam??

Any tips on how to prepare for this and how to actually get the job

S12

Thank Druss! Can I ask if you are applying or already in the civil service? Looking around here I've seen lots of people talking about making it through the exams, but so far I can't find anyone who actually got the job- pretty disheartening! I know that its important to do well in the exam to get the interview, but still there seems to be an awful lot of people going for very few positions Does anyone know approx how many get the job out of the interviewees (not out of the thousands that sit the exam)?

druss

S12 wrote: »

Thank Druss! Can I ask if you are applying or already in the civil service? Looking around here I've seen lots of people talking about making it through the exams, but so far I can't find anyone who actually got the job- pretty disheartening! I know that its important to do well in the exam to get the interview, but still there seems to be an awful lot of people going for very few positions Does anyone know approx how many get the job out of the interviewees (not out of the thousands that sit the exam)?

I got the job on an earlier recruitment campaign. There are relatively few positions, but if you're not in etc, etc!

Earlier this year, 20 + were appointed as far as i can remember. The appointed/interviewed figures were in the union magazine, which i haven't got at the moment.

Process has been slowed a bit by decentralisation as lots of jobs have conditions applied. Eg you accept a job for Dublin, but must also accept moving to Portlaoise.

indiewindy

For EO's maybe 200 will get a job off the panel each competition

The_Conductor

indiewindy wrote: »

For EO's maybe 200 will get a job off the panel each competition

In the current context that could be perhaps 200-250 from a panel of about 8000-9000- i.e. less than 4% of those who apply can reasonably expect to be successful....... Not great odds, but if you're not in you can't win........

tricky@

Have posted this before in previous threads about civil service competitions but just to give an idea of how the process works. For the 2005 open EO competition my timetable of events went something like this:

Sep 2005: Sat Exam
November 2005: Received results- I was placed 468 in the Dublin panel
January 2007: Received pre interview questionaire.
June 2007: Did interview/Junior Management exercise.
August 2007: Started Job.

applicant

Hi
I recently did the EO assessment test and scored pretty low for Dublin but did much better for Wicklow and Kilkenny. I'm not sure now though what happens. Do I wait until decentralisation occurs to these areas and then wait until my number is reached on the panal? If so does anyone have any information on when decentralisation to these two counties might occur? I have looked at the website but it doesn't seem to say. Just trying to get a picture as to how long I will have to wait for possible interview (I scored in the 70's for Wicklow and Kilkenny).

S12

druss wrote: »

I got the job on an earlier recruitment campaign. There are relatively few positions, but if you're not in etc, etc!

Earlier this year, 20 + were appointed as far as i can remember. The appointed/interviewed figures were in the union magazine, which i haven't got at the moment.

Process has been slowed a bit by decentralisation as lots of jobs have conditions applied. Eg you accept a job for Dublin, but must also accept moving to Portlaoise.

Belated well done so!
Do you have to move though? Is there any chance of getting a job in Dublin and staying there or will everything be moved at some point? I don't want to have to commute from Dublin to another county and I have no interest in moving to a place I have no ties to.
Ah well, I'm getting ahead of myself- better wait till I see if I can even pass the exam!:D

tricky@

S12 wrote: »

Is there any chance of getting a job in Dublin and staying there?

Yes, in the last competition, which also highlighted the fact that posts were being decentralised, I was placed in a Department in Dublin, which is not decentralising.

S12

Great! Did you ask for Dublin only?

The_Conductor

applicant wrote: »

Hi
I recently did the EO assessment test and scored pretty low for Dublin but did much better for Wicklow and Kilkenny. I'm not sure now though what happens. Do I wait until decentralisation occurs to these areas and then wait until my number is reached on the panal? If so does anyone have any information on when decentralisation to these two counties might occur? I have looked at the website but it doesn't seem to say. Just trying to get a picture as to how long I will have to wait for possible interview (I scored in the 70's for Wicklow and Kilkenny).

There are 32,400 serving administrative civil servants (from SIS), of whom 16,800 are in Dublin. The decentralisation scheme entails moving 10,300 of these Dublin based civil servants to region locations, leaving 5,500 in Dublin. Of the 10,300 posts being moved- 959 serving civil servants have elected to move. The vast bulk of the current recruitment regime- is for the remainder of the 9,400 odd posts that are moving, but that their incumbents do not want to move with (note: the official statistics are horribly skewed as most of the people they are registering as agreeing to decentralise are already decentralised, but are simply moving from one currently decentralised location, to another........ handy way of making up the numbers!)

Normally the posts being decentralised are initially in Dublin (for training purposes, and until such time as suitable accommodation is found in the decentralised location). Previously there existed what was known as "the two year rule" whereby if you were recruited/promoted for a specific location but spent more than 2 years elsewhere, they would not ask you to move. However with the decentralisation programme, and particularly with all newstarts since 2005, they are being made sign a contract stating unequivocally that they will decentralise to a specific location (there has been very limited recruitment for Dublin positions- notably in the Revenue Commissioners, but for the most part these posts have been filled by pre-existing Dublin based civil servants who do not wish to move to decentralised locations).

Its possible that you may get a post in Dublin- but they are thin on the ground, and likely to become very much more difficult to find- particularly with the latest instructions re: redeployment of existing staff (from Agriculture initially- but from other Departments as staff become available).

If you aim for specific Departments that are not relocating- that is your best bet.

Supercell

I'm rather hoping that they do interview for non Dublin positions first - I'd love to work in somewhere like Roscommon or Longford to be honest.

That said my first and second favourites were Dublin and Waterford (but applied for all counties) so dunno how thats gonna work out.

tricky@

S12 wrote: »

Great! Did you ask for Dublin only?

Yes only applied to be considered for dublin posts but as per the posts above, there's no guarantee that you will be offered a position in Dublin thats not due to decentralise.

dubabroad

One last question re the AO positions. At 31 would I be considered too old to be taken on in that role?
I know there are probably anti-ageist policies etc but in practice at that age would I be likely to struggle to get what is essentially graduate position?

The_Conductor

dubabroad wrote: »

One last question re the AO positions. At 31 would I be considered too old to be taken on in that role?
I know there are probably anti-ageist policies etc but in practice at that age would I be likely to struggle to get what is essentially graduate position?

Definitely not- I'm 34, I'm going for it.
There is actually a benefit in taking on an older person- obviously they will have other experiences and skills to bring to the job that a younger person might not have. There are policies in place targetting ageism- despite this you may encounter some people who may think that because you're a little older you may have difficulty in picking up things- but thats nonsense. Put your best foot forward and see what happens......

inarut

No that shouldn't be an issue at all. I know people older than you who have been successful in these competitions. Experience along with the appropriate qualifications would be an advantage at the interview stage. Good luck!

dubabroad

Thanks to you both for the information and the encouragement
Best of luck

applicant

Thanks for all the info smccarrick! I wouldn't necessarily mind going to Wicklow or Kilkenny. It would be great to have a rough idea of when I could expect an interview but would I be right in saying its impossible to know?

dubabroad

Sorry,one further question, when applying for the AO position I was asked to update my profile.
When I update it there was a tick box relating to decentralisation.
When I ticked the box, to indicate that I would be interested in decentralisation, it directed me to a further page where I had to say what dept I was in. Obviously, not being an employee of any dept I was unable to tick any box!
Am I correct in saying that this must apply to present employees of the civil service or is there a way I can indicate a willingness to decentralise?
I have submitted the application for the AO posts already but I presume I can alter my profile after the application has gone in

The_Conductor

As you have a pre-existing profile- they are making the presumptious assumption that you are indeed a serving civil servant. Note: some of the competitions are limited to serving civil servants (don't think there are any this time round though) its possible that you may have accidentally ticked a box somewhere else in the past- which led them to this assumption.

I think there is an automatic assumption that if you are applying for the civil service that you are willing to decentralise. With the exception of any competitons that specifically state they are "Dublin only" competitions (few and far between) in the absence of further information you should assume its for decentralising. If you do get to interview stage- you can make your willingness known at that point (or clarify it), its not worth getting worried over it until that point.

Best of good luck!!!