Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

Another rare one.
The maker mark on this one is unusual in that it has a very definite 'period' (.) after the numbers, presumably to differenciate from the number '99'.

danpatjoe

Until recently this was an unknown maker, but it is now thought to be of the firm of Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid.

A very distinctive cross with unusual beading.

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

Not generally known as a 'wideframe', but this cross has a large frame to match the size of a '24'.

FiSe

I will ask a silly question now, but can you find the "real owner" /holder/ of whichever particular cross? Is there a number or some sort of code stamped on them? So you'd be able to trace its history?
/ie. 32261 belongs to Uffz Josef Ursch, awarded in 1942 for attack on enemy pillbox/

Dr Strange

Hi FiSe,

not a silly question at all! That system would be great for collectors as it would make life easier researching the people behind the awards.

Unfortunately, it is not the case. The only markings you may find on an Iron Cross Second class and most Iron Crosses 1st Class are the makers marks. Very rarely do Iron Crosses 1st Class have a personalised name engraved on the back and many have been faked.

That is why many collectors look for complete documentation with the awards. If you are lucky you can get the award still with its original documentation:

The awards-certificate (Verleihungsurkunde) - it will tell you who the reciepient was, what army category he was in, when the award was awarded, the name of the awarding officer.

The paymentbook (Soldbuch) as well as army passport (Wehrpass) - these will have details about all decorations awarded to the person, what dates, what combat situations (link with dates in awards section).

I personally would always buy documents and awards belonging together. Sometimes, dealers/sellers have a large amount of awards and couments all from one family and in order to sell them quicker they "tear apart" the collection and sell everything seperately. This is terrible as it is impossible now to link documents and awards. You may always be able to buy another original Iron Cross or other awards that is missing in a document group but it will never be the original medal awarded to the person.

Best,
Preusse

danpatjoe

Preusse wrote: »

I personally would always buy documents and awards belonging together....
Sometimes, dealers/sellers have a large amount of awards and couments all from one family and in order to sell them quicker they "tear apart" the collection and sell everything seperately.

I agree with Preusse, in that it would be great for collectors if all medals had been engraved/marked or coded in some way, so that research could be carried out on the recipient, but alas...

Unfortunately, I imagine there are also unscrupulous dealers/sellers out there that are matching random medals to award documents and thus 'creating' groups.
It is relatively easy to find an EK2 document and maybe an Ostmedaille or Black Wound Badge document to the same soldat, just add the relevant medals, ribbonbars, packets etc., and hey presto! a great grouping. We have only the dealers word to rely on.

Sorry if I seem a bit too cynical!

- Dan

Dr Strange

danpatjoe wrote: »

. . .
Unfortunately, I imagine there are also unscrupulous dealers/sellers out there that are matching random medals to award documents and thus 'creating' groups.
It is relatively easy to find an EK2 document and maybe an Ostmedaille or Black Wound Badge document to the same soldat, just add the relevant medals, ribbonbars, packets etc., and hey presto! a great grouping. We have only the dealers word to rely on.

Sorry if I seem a bit too cynical!

- Dan

No Dan, you are quite right. That is why I try to get most of my material directly from the families but if you buy from a dealer or internet you have to watch out! Sometimes you see something and already get the feeling there's something not quite right. I usually skip anything I have doubts about.

FiSe

...sorry for hijackin' this thread :cool:

But another question:
How much is the usual price for such a medal/s?

Bit of explanation, I'm building models of, mainly, German WWII selfpropelled guns and I'd like to have a few basic medals to go with my collection /Iron Cross, Tnker badge, Infantry badge.../
So obviously I'm not looking for some rare pieces, but if the price is reasonable I'd rather have an original item then some resin copy /which would do the trick at the end as well, but.../
Thanks

Dr Strange

FiSe wrote: »

...sorry for hijackin' this thread :cool:

But another question:
How much is the usual price for such a medal/s?

Bit of explanation, I'm building models of, mainly, German WWII selfpropelled guns and I'd like to have a few basic medals to go with my collection /Iron Cross, Tnker badge, Infantry badge.../
So obviously I'm not looking for some rare pieces, but if the price is reasonable I'd rather have an original item then some resin copy /which would do the trick at the end as well, but.../
Thanks

Hi there,

the price really depends on rarity and where you are buying. Do you have a list of medals you would like to own? I do sell some medals and other militaria from time to time to very reasonable prices if I may say so. I'd be more than happy to help you out. Have a look in my signature, there is a link to recently sold and for sale stuff which I put on adverts.ie.

If you have a list of items/medals I can look into it and let you know the approx. prices. I have some collector friends in Germany who always sell some of their collectables in order to upgrade. Originality/autheticity is guaranteed and you can always return a medal if you have your doubts (for the full price but excluding postage).

danpatjoe

Hello FiSe,

These models sound interesting! Can we see them when they are finished?

Do you intend to attach the medals/badges permanently to the display?
I hope you would use reproductions if it were a case that the medal would have to be altered and/or damaged during the attachment (eg. pins being removed or ground down, or where glueing is involved).
I don't believe that any genuine award should be interfered with in such a way.

Regards - Dan

danpatjoe

Back to the crosses!...

Probably the easiest crosses to identify due to their very obvious frame differences. Souval's frames used a very different style of cornice on the beading than 'regular' crosses. Note the 'birds feet' style cornices and the very rounded inner corners.

My least favourite maker, (I think they are ugly!), Souval's crosses are not generally liked, because he continued to use the dies to produce EK's after April 1945, and there is no easy way to tell the post-war ones apart.

These frames also appear on some crosses using a Frederich Orth - (MM-15) core, (believed to be a case of factories helping each other out to fulfil orders. Both producers are from Vienna).

danpatjoe

This makers crosses are frequently found in excellent condition with all the rhodium plating and white 'frosting' remaining. Another maker that uses the 'hump' to attach the jump-ring.

This example arrived with a surprise!... a wartime 'Visitenkarte' from the person it was awarded to:
Horst Joachim Meye
Oberleutnant in Einer PZ.-Aufkl.-Abtlg.

(This was enclosed with the cross by the seller who added a note to tell me what it was. It was not part of the sale and I was unaware of it until I opening the package. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve it, so I have left it with the cross just in case!)

Dr Strange

danpatjoe wrote: »

...
Do you intend to attach the medals/badges permanently to the display?
I hope you would use reproductions if it were a case that the medal would have to be altered and/or damaged during the attachment (eg. pins being removed or ground down, or where glueing is involved).
I don't believe that any genuine award should be interfered with in such a way.

Regards - Dan

Yes, a good point, Dan. I have to say I wouldn't agree with the use of any awards in such a way either. There are many good reproductions out there which could be used for such alterations.

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

This one unfortunately has had it's core re-painted.

danpatjoe

These crosses have an oversized jump ring and a very unusual large maker stamp.

danpatjoe

Here is a cross from the firm of J.J. Stahl, one of two firms (the other being '123' - Beck, Hassinger & Co.) that were technically 'outside the reich' - both firms were located in Strassbourg in the Alsace region, (although the notion of 'being outside the reich' would have been hotly debated at the time.)

danpatjoe

A cross from the second Alsace firm.



And another late war example with a completely different style of maker mark. Unfortunately this one was poorly stored and has a bad case of rust on the core.

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

Another of the rarer ones.

danpatjoe

For a change, here's a few 1914 crosses.

In comparison to 1939 iron crosses, the 1914 cross is smaller and the differences on cores and frames between manufacturers are much more obvious.

First one up is marked 'G' for Godet & Co., Berlin.

danpatjoe

This makers (unknown) crosses have incredibly detailed core features.

danpatjoe

Here are two samples of 'KO' marked crosses. Both have differing cores and maker marks.

This was my first iron cross - the one that started the obsession!

danpatjoe

I haven't added anything in here lately, so here's one of my more recent purchases.

A nicely worn medal bar (my first) with heavy patina. It consists of a 1914 EK2, Honour Cross for combatants 1914-1918 (Hindenburg Cross) and a 25 year Faithful Service cross.

I cannot see the ring on the EK2 to see if it is maker marked, but the Hindenburg cross is marked on the reverse by the firm of Assmann & Sohne.

The bar has a neatly stitched label on the back from the firm of L. Wagener, Frankfurt (oder).

danpatjoe

Here's another Deschler.

These are my favourite maker, their crosses are thicker and heavier than any other makers that I have seen (excepting the 'Round 3' - which has many common features with Deschler).

The core on this one is very loose and as a result there is some paint loss where the core is rubbing off the frame.