Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

danpatjoe

Here's another oddity... this is by an unknown maker and is very hard to find -rarer than standard 'Schinkel-form crosses. It is commonly referred to (for obvious reasons) as the 'Odd date' EK2.
It has the unusual feature of a 'hump' on the top of the reverse frame for the suspension ring, but this has been filed off on the obverse. It is the only cross maker that I am aware of that has this feature.
Sometimes (incorrectly) called a 'Schinkel B' type frame because of the lack of curvature on the arms.

danpatjoe

Here's one of the more desirable crosses (despite the light surface rust and wear on the core), the rare 'Round 3' type (so called because of the shape of the top of the '3's in the dates). This one is the bevelled edge variant. The edges of the frame are belled - not a feature found on other crosses.

Fuinseog

this may be of relevance or it may not, but I stumbled across an EK I at an antique shop on the quays in Dublin,(between O Connell street and SIPTU.
its in an original case, has a pin back to it marked 65 and may even be a modified EKII.

danpatjoe

Fuinseog wrote: »

this may be of relevance or it may not, but I stumbled across an EK I at an antique shop on the quays in Dublin,(between O Connell street and SIPTU.
its in an original case, has a pin back to it marked 65 and may even be a modified EKII.

A modified EK2?? I've seen 'upgraded/modified' EK2's but never one with a marked pin. They are usually very crudely field made modifications. If the reverse had a pin system which was marked 65 and looked like this, then it would have been a genuine EK1.



Did you happen to see what price he was asking for it?

Regards - Dan

danpatjoe

Here's one I had been waiting ages to find, it's known as the 'little brother' übergroße - It is an 'oversize' (übergroße) EK2 (same core and frame) that has had its frame filed down to correspond with official regulation size.
These unmarked crosses are even harder to find than their full size brothers, so I was very happy to find this one.

HerrScheisse

Hi all,

Long time lurker and first time poster. I have been collecting about a year now and have built up a mixed collection in that time. My main interests are the world wars but also GDR items.

I will post some of my items very soon. I am about to buy my first iron cross and came across this wonderful thread with DanPatJoe and his encyclopedic knowledge.

I had always held out on an iron cross as they were so heavily faked. now I have the chance to buy one with Urkunde and the story of how it was earned. It was awarded in 1940 for actions in the Western campaign.

But it is not maker marked as I assume was common for that period. I would like to post a picture before I buy and was hoping that DanPatJoe might be kind enough to give me the benefit of his espertise?

Can someone please explain how I post the pictures?

Many thanks ;-)

danpatjoe

Unfortunate choice of screen name that...


Hello,
Thank you for the kind words, and I'd love to see your prospective cross and indeed the rest of your collection. It would be correct for the cross to be unmarked at that early stage of the war.

I use Postimage to host my pictures, they don't seem to have a problem with displaying the swastika - as yet (unlike Photobucket and Imageshack).

See:
http://www.postimage.org

Regards - Dan

arnhem44

HerrScheisse wrote: »

Hi all,

Long time lurker and first time poster. I have been collecting about a year now and have built up a mixed collection in that time. My main interests are the world wars but also GDR items.

I will post some of my items very soon. I am about to buy my first iron cross and came across this wonderful thread with DanPatJoe and his encyclopedic knowledge.

I had always held out on an iron cross as they were so heavily faked. now I have the chance to buy one with Urkunde and the story of how it was earned. It was awarded in 1940 for actions in the Western campaign.

But it is not maker marked as I assume was common for that period. I would like to post a picture before I buy and was hoping that DanPatJoe might be kind enough to give me the benefit of his espertise?

Can someone please explain how I post the pictures?

Many thanks ;-)

Hi HerrScheisse and welcome to the forum.There are different ways to post pictures here,you can use a photo sharing website like image shack or Photobucket,these will give you a URL for your photos suitable for forums to copy which you can then paste a link to the photo here in the thread.Alternatively you can scroll down on the page when you are posting a reply and you will see manage attachments,click on this and you can choose a photo from your computer and load it up,this can be done for a maximum of five photos per post.

arnhem44

danpatjoe wrote: »

Unfortunate choice of screen name that...


Hello,
Thank you for the kind words, and I'd love to see your prospective cross and indeed the rest of your collection. It would be correct for the cross to be unmarked at that early stage of the war.

I use Postimage to host my pictures, they don't seem to have a problem with displaying the swastika - as yet (unlike Photobucket and Imageshack).

See:
http://www.postimage.org

Regards - Dan

Have Photobucket and imageshack now gone down that road Dan?

danpatjoe

arnhem44 wrote: »

Have Photobucket and imageshack now gone down that road Dan?

Sadly yes, It may take them a while to notice but I have had quite a few images deleted (obverse of EK's), while I still have many more with them that have remained. Doesn't make sense to me at all.

arnhem44

I can understand if someone was using such images for glorying the time frame of the Nazi period and what it stood for but this is bordering on the ridiculous.It amazes me how one site can have no issues with it and others and people who use them are hell bent on having images removed.

HerrScheisse

Thanks guys!

Sorry about the name, it was late when I registered and inspiration was lacking ;-)
But at least its easy to remember.

I have four pics here of the iron cross, Ill try again:









I know it is not maker marked but would love to know if it is genuine, and any advice on what type of cross you think it is (if it is genuine) would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks!

HerrScheisse

Some further info - it is from an antique dealer. It comes with the original Ukunde certificate, a typesritten description of how it was earned (I think a military briefing report) and also some newspaper clippings of the awrd being presented.

danpatjoe

Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to tell anything from those small pictures, we'd need to see some more detail of the core and frame beading. The packet looks good, but again, better pictures are needed to be certain.

Can the dealer provide you with better resolution pictures? It looks like he just reduced the size of them for an on-line sale or for an email.

Sorry I can't be of much more help for now.

Regards - Dan

HerrScheisse

Hi DanPatJoe,

I resized them myself so as not to overload the screen.

I also removed the dealer name so if you see any smudges on the shots.

Here are the full size:








Best regards!

HerrScheisse

HerrScheisse

Hi all,

I just got the message from the dealer asking if I take it or not. I am sorely tempted but have been burned by unscrupulous dealers before. I cannot say if real documents are bundled with a fake cross so would be very grateful if someone could advise on this cross and whether they think it is fake or not. Any manufacturer estimate is also appreciated.

Thanks a lot in advance,

HS

HerrScheisse

PS If you cklick on the photos you get the full size with more detail.

danpatjoe

Hello HS,

Apologies for not replying sooner.

I believe the cross is indeed genuine, (as are the packet and piece of ribbon), but as to a maker, I cannot be sure. It looks like it is a 'standard' cross made with S&L (Steinhauer & Lück) parts.

S&L provided parts to many different companies who assembled the crosses and then stamped the ring with their own mark, so determining which company made/assembled this one would be impossible.... unless the packet happens to be stamped on the reverse (that is, assuming that the whole ensemble is in fact an original grouping and not put together).

If you do go ahead with the purchase, be sure to post some really clear pictures of the beading (especially around the inside corners near the swastika), that should help clarify if it uses S&L parts.

Regards - Dan

HerrScheisse

Many thanks Dan - your advice is very much appreciated.

I think I will be going ahead with the purchase as I do not have an Iron Cross yet. Always wanted one and I had plenty of opportunities but was extremely wary becase of fakes. The amount of shysters out there in the military antique world is utterly incredible and they ruin collecting for everybody.

This particular one comes with the Urkunde, some original newspaper clippings of the award being presented and also a typewritten account of the circumstances it was earned.

It was awarded to a Corporal (Unteroffizier) during the campaign in the West and he had to repair a broken comms link during an assault which he managed to successfully do while under small wrms and artillery fire. Knowing the story behind it makes it that much more interesting to me. When I get it, Ill post more. Ill be posting other stuff from my collection too.

Thanks again for your opinion.

BlackEdelweiss

Hi Dan,
This is my latest medal, it arrived a few days ago but I am finding it hard to get a good clear photo of it. Can you identify it from these pics.
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/jagerleaves/IronCross2086.jpg
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/jagerleaves/IronCross2102.jpg
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/jagerleaves/IronCross2089.jpg

This is both of my crosses. There is a minute difference in size between the two, the new one being about a half a millimeter bigger. The older medal weighs 21g and the new one 18g, both with the ribbons on.
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/jagerleaves/IronCross2098.jpg
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab326/jagerleaves/IronCross2097.jpg

danpatjoe

That is a great looking Paul Meybauer (PKZ no.7 / LDO code L/13) cross.. Congratulations!

I would like to see a close-up clear photo of the beading on the inner corners near the swastika if possible, but judging by the weight, it matches my marked Meybauers (One of which is 17.0g and the other 17.6g - both weighed without ribbons), while the '23' marked cross with the Meybauer core weighs 20.2g.

The two crosses look great together... are you thinking of adding another at any stage?!!

Regards - Dan

HerrScheisse

Today I added a 1939 Iron Cross 2nd Class to my collection!

Dan - I can see why you got hooked on this award, they really are something special!
I have the award certificate, it was awarded in 1940 for action during the conquest of Belgium. The awardee received the cross for repairing a communications line between regiment and division HQ while under small arms and artillery fire.

I have put the award under my flatbed scanner (any distortion is becuase of this), Dan I would appreciate any comments you have on this item. The black coating is complete on the award and it has a metallic core (I tried this with a fridge magnet).

The points of the beading just touch the bottom of the swastika on both sides.

The award package is fairly thick paper, almost card but there is no clue to make on the rear. Maybe from the text stmped, it might give an idea?

I noticed the amount of ribbon with the award is very short - is this normal, Or would the soldier have taken a cutting? I believe they wore the ribbon on their tunic?

danpatjoe

Hello HS,

It's a great feeling alright! Congratulations on a fine addition to your collection.
According to the stamping on the packet, it was made by Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Graveur-Gold-und Silberschemiede-Innungen, Hanau (PKZ no: 25). Is the top flap missing or tucked into the packet?

The cross is more than likely by this firm, but I would like to see some high resolution scans to be certain. If it is ok with you, I will PM my email address to you and you can send me some large images.

The piece of ribbon is indeed short, the standard issued length being approx. 11.5 inches. Of this, the soldier cut off a piece for attaching to his buttonhole, but usually only a couple of inches.
The (period) piece with your cross looks like maybe a quarter of standard length. Dealers often cut ribbons into these lengths to add to medals that have lost their original ribbon. Yours doesn't look like it was ever attached to the cross.

All in all, it's a great cross. Can we see the urkunde aswell?

HerrScheisse

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the reply. I attached some hi-res images below - I had been using smaller images purely for ease of upload. I hope these should be detailed enough.

The flap on the packet is still attached and is indeed folded inside. I l
measured the ribbon and it is precisely 7.5cms or 3 inches. It has not been attached to the cross as you would see metallic rubbings on the fabric and this is not present, nor any form of creasing. Could it be that this piece is actually from the tunic? If you look at the picture, it has a well defined hole on one end (left side) and this end is machine cut - it is very precise with all thread extensions exactly the same length and absolutely no fraying. The other end is scissor cut and not perfectly straight and some fraying can be seen.

I'll scan the Urkunde and post it shortly also.

danpatjoe

Hello HS,

Thanks for posting the new images. It's a great looking cross, I really like the 'veining' on the core. I don't think it's a '25' cross, but I'm still a bit stumped as to which maker it is. I'm still leaning to the 'standard' S&L design, but I'll look into it a bit more.

It's not uncommon to see mismatched packets and crosses. I read recently a likely explanation being that when the crosses were awarded they were already removed from their packet and then presented to the soldier. The awarding officer would probably have a bunch of packets and getting them mixed up would be easily done.

The ribbon looks like an end piece alright, but not the piece attached to the uniform. I have often seen almost full lengths (approx. 9 inches) of ribbon with a 45 degree cut at one end. Judging by the way they were worn on the uniform, this style of cut would be the most practical.

HerrScheisse

Hi Dan,

Some interesting info you posted there.

Below is a link to the Urkunde you were interested to see. The Cross was awarded to a Corporal in 1940.

Any other info or thoughts on the maker of this item is much appreciated.

HerrScheisse

PS - Do any of you know if it is possible to retrieve information on a particlar soldier awarded an Iron Cross if it is documented. I am particularly interested to know if he survived the war or not.

Morlar

HerrScheisse wrote: »

PS - Do any of you know if it is possible to retrieve information on a particlar soldier awarded an Iron Cross if it is documented. I am particularly interested to know if he survived the war or not.

If he died and has a known grave you could try searching here :
http://www.volksbund.de/
Bear in mind the volume of men, also the amount with the same name, you will often get 5-6 hits on a single name and it covers WWI & WWII. So it would help to know where he fought & his birth date in addition to his name.

It's in German. Otherwise there is no 'Iron Cross holders list'. There are 'Ritterkreuzträger lists' for different branches but these are unnofficial and compiled by researchers (you can download those from the web).

HerrScheisse

Thanks Morlar for that info. Is that a volunteers website or is it government regulated? Does it cover exclusively WW1 and 2 or also up to present day (GDR inclusive) as almost all my GDR stuff comes also with named Urkunde?