Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

MedalFuhrer

I thought that your body doubles were just rumours and things of conspiracy theories! How many do you have?

danpatjoe

Herr_S wrote: »

I recently picked up an old love again. 33 years ago i had a small collection of German materials and iron crosses (wwi and wwii) but times let me sell them privately.
Recentely - during a trip thru Normandy - i picked up that old love again ... And it hit me strong!
Since two months now i have six wwi 2nd class and one 1st. Same with wwii i hve one of each.
Reading the threads on this forum made me see that i'm not alone. Only i know even more then i did that you hve to look very good on wht you buy ...
Seems like you are able to look at a cross and know immediate if it's ok ... Any tips?
What's a b-type btw?
Did every maker had it's one and oly way to make them?

Many questions ... I hope to find some anwsers.

Hello Herr_S,

Welcome to the forum. It's always good to see another EK collector here.
I hope you will take the time to show us the crosses in your collection.

Regarding spotting fakes, sadly there isn't really any instant information I can give that will ensure you will not get caught out. The best advice I can give is not to jump on every cross that becomes available without checking them out carefully first. You can post images here (and maybe other militaria forums) and the members will give their opinions. Also, study up on them as much as you can. I have posted a considerable amount of crosses from different makers here in this thread so you can use these to compare to any potential purchase.

Generally, iron crosses have a ferrous blackened or painted core, which is sandwiched between two silver frames (some WW1 and most WW2 versions are not actual silver).
Most one piece crosses are cast fakes, but be aware that there are also genuine one piece crosses out there.

There are some extremely good fakes available with the same construction methods as the genuine crosses, and these are very dangerous pieces for the collector who is not aware of them. But these also can be spotted if you know what to look for. (The 'Floch' and '333' crosses being prime examples of this type of fake).
I have posted some images of a few different types of these fakes (here somewhere) with pointers to the give-aways. (I will have to check where this post is).
EDIT: See post number 13 in this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59502957
On re-reading that post, I realised that I hadn't pointed out the distinguishing features... sorry

Herr_S wrote: »

Did every maker had it's one and oly way to make them?

There are many, many differing core and frame types on both WW1 and WW2 crosses. Most makers crosses will have some type of flaw or individual characteristic either to the core or frame that identifies that maker, but many other makers used frames supplied by other firms and just stamped their own code on afterwards.

WW1 crosses are frequently found with shared parts between firms, while during WW2, the firm of Steinhauer & Lück of Lüdenscheid made what is termed as the 'standard design' iron cross and supplied many other makers with these parts.

When I first stared collecting crosses, they all looked the same to me, but now I see differences between them almost straight away. You get used to it eventually!

Herr_S wrote: »

What's a b-type btw?

A 'B-type' refers to the design used on the core of a cross.

When the 1870 cross was introduced, the cores were initially made using one pattern - the 'A-type'. Later a second design was introduced - the 'B-type'. Have a look at the 1870 crosses I have posted, note especially the style of the 1813 date on both types. They are very different from each other.

Both of these style cores were used as designs for some early 1914 cores too, (see previous post on the 1914 'B-type') and I have just yesterday found a 1914 with an 'A-type' core which I will post in the coming days.

I hope this has been of some help to you, and I'm looking forward to seeing some of your crosses.

Regards - Dan

Herr_S

HerrScheisse wrote: »

Herr S?? Would you be one of my doubles by any chance :pac:

No but with my lastname 'Stock' it was obvious ...

Herr_S

Thanks Dan for the extended and valuable information, i'll try to post pictures as soon as possible!

http://imageshack.us/g/341/wk2ek2long.jpg/

danpatjoe

Herr_S wrote: »

Thanks Dan for the extended and valuable information, i'll try to post pictures as soon as possible!

http://imageshack.us/g/341/wk2ek2long.jpg/

Thanks Herr_S,

On first glance, they all look fine to me. Looks like you are hooked... there's no going back now!

I see a Godet and a Sy und Wagner in there, but can you list the ones that have maker marks, so I won't have to spend ages trying to identify them!

Regards - Dan

Herr_S

these are the visible marks

Eisernes Kreuz 1e Klasse WW2 "7"?
Eisernes Kreuz 1e Klasse WW1 no marks
Eisernes Kreuz 2e Klasse WW2
Eisernes Kreuz 2e Klasse WW1 "KO"
Eisernes Kreuz 2e Klasse WW1 "G"
Eisernes Kreuz 2e Klasse WW1 "S-W"
Eisernes Kreuz 2e Klasse WW1 "WUS"
Eisernes Kreuz 2e Klasse WW1 no marks
Eisernes Kreuz 2e Klasse WW1 "CD 800"

danpatjoe

Are there any marks on the small jump ring of the WW2 EK2?
It looks like a 'wide frame' 24. They are sometimes found with additional marks (clover leaf, cross or arrow head).

Herr_S

Didn't find any. This is the only one where i'm not very sure on ...

I do love your collection, as you have a lot of different makers.
Are the WW2 always or only marked with ciphers?

danpatjoe

Herr_S wrote: »

...Are the WW2 always or only marked with ciphers?

Yes, either the awarded crosses with Präsidialkanzlei numbers or the privately purchased LDO codes. See:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59997132&postcount=102

Herr_S

Hello all,

What do you think of this one? http://imageshack.us/g/192/img7149b.jpg/

1870 2.klasse - reliable? It is marked KO, but wasn't that a 'hersteller' from WWI?

http://imageshack.us/g/192/img7149b.jpg/

danpatjoe

Herr_S wrote: »

Hello all,

What do you think of this one? http://imageshack.us/g/192/img7149b.jpg/

1870 2.klasse - reliable? It is marked KO, but wasn't that a 'hersteller' from WWI?

http://imageshack.us/g/192/img7149b.jpg/

Hello,

I would avoid this one for a number of reasons:

(A). The pictures are terrible, and do not show the details that need to be seen to verify it's authenticity.

(B). No 1870 EK2's are ever had a maker mark.

(C). This looks to have a painted core, while originals are not painted but rather blackened.

(D). The frame looks too large - it's more like a 1914 EK2.

I believe that it is probably one of the infamous '9th Bead fakes' of an A-type 1870 EK2 -

These are extremely good fakes with excellent detail and need careful examination. The ninth bead refers to one of the beads on the crown being slightly larger than the rest. But with these pictures the crown always seems to be out of focus... coincidence?

Another tell tale with these is the '8' in the date - the fakes have a kind of 'over and under' formation at the centre of the eight - I believe that I can see this feature in the pictures supplied. Originals did not have this.

These fakes usually have a larger frame similar to a 1914, and are frequently found with maker marks - KO being one of them.

There are too many warning signs about this cross, so my advice would be to avoid it.

Regards - Dan

Herr_S

Thanks Dan!
Better avoid it ... Going to take a look at it this weekend
If this has the facts you described is this it a fake or a late 1914 one?
If so what would be the marketprice?

danpatjoe

IF it is one of the 'ninth bead' fakes, then it is not a replacement or late example, just a fake core in a 1914 frame.
However,
There are known replacement crosses that have painted cores and resemble 'A-type' cores. (These would not have a WW1 stamping on the ring).

I still do not have much hope for the cross you have posted. Is there any chance you could take clear, straight on, large pictures of the cross when you see it?

Regards - Dan

P.S.
Mike Estelmann wrote an excellent and most informative article on the subject of 1870 EKs and the 'ninth bead fake', translated into english on WAF here:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3287232&postcount=17
Well worth reading.

danpatjoe

An '800' (silver content) marked cross with a rare non-combatant ribbon:

danpatjoe

An 'A' marked 1914 EK2. Assmann of Lüdenscheid.

danpatjoe

Here's a hard to find "JWS" (Johann Wagner & Sohn, Berlin) marked cross, this one is unusual in that it has a core design based on the 1870 'A-type'.
The frame is quite small in comparison to it's 1914 counterparts, at 42.2mm it is closer in size to an 1870.... leftover parts perhaps?

arnhem44

Dan as always great to see more of these crosses and there different variations,excellent job for posting them up and sharing them with everyone.

danpatjoe

One of a few recent additions, an ED marked cross (as yet, an known maker).

danpatjoe

A nicely worn 'K' (unknown maker) marked cross.

danpatjoe

And here's an unmarked cross (as yet unidentified). This has a nice early sand cast core and a very high silver content frame (hard to tell from the scans, but this frame is beautiful!)

danpatjoe

Here's one stamped 'V' on the ring (another unknown maker).

alexm

Hey i have 2 iron crosses i know very little about them so any info would be great the first is marked as y which is unknown as ar as i can tell



the second is marked 1



thank you

danpatjoe

Very nice Alex.

The 1939 cross is was made by the firm Deschler und Söhne of Munich. This is a nice find as they are a very desirable maker. It's a pity that the core has some rust spots - try to limit its spread by keeping the cross in a sealed container with some silica gel sachets - don't try to re-paint it or scratch off the rust.

The 1914 is also interesting and has a core design that I have not encountered before. 'Y' is an unknown maker, but I would like to know if the core attracts a magnet? It looks to be an early sand-cast core, but I'd like to be certain as it also reminds me of the texture found on some single piece crosses.

Again, good finds, congratulations.
Regards - Dan

alexm

great thank you very much
you really do have a seemingly endless supply of knowledge

No it doesnt attract metal
Thank you for that i have them both sealed with rice and cotton wool.

If you dont mind me asking another question what sort of price range could i hope to get on these items?

Thank you
Alexm

danpatjoe

Regarding the 1914 cross, if the core is not magnetic, it is a good hint that the cross may be of one piece construction. Can you see any seam around the outer edges or is it possible to slip a thin piece of paper in between the core and under the beading?

As I have said, this cross is a new one to me. It looks like a good one in its detail, but the only things I am not fond of are the crowns - considering the detail of the rest of the cross, these look strangely 'unfinished'.

Hold on....
you said it "doesn't attract metal" - no iron crosses have an actual 'magnetic' core, what is meant is that the core is made of iron / ferrous metal which will be attracted to a magnet. Is this the case?

Regards - Dan

alexm

ah yes apologies it is magnetic
yeah a slim piece of paper can get under the beading on the inside but not outside edge

thank you
Alexm

danpatjoe

Ah, then it's a perfectly standard cross. No worries.

Price wise, marked 1914 EK's generally sell on dealers sites at approx €45-€50, however some rarer marks (800 or 935 silver content) can fetch a little more.
The Deschler cross, since it is marked, I would expect it to sell for approx. €90-€100 and maybe a little more, but the rust devalues it somewhat.

Hope this helps.
Regards - Dan

alexm

wow brilliant thank you last question. where would be best to sell them?

Thank you
Alex

danpatjoe

Hello All,

Things have been really dead in here lately. I presume no one is buying much these days - I most certainly am not anyway!
So to re-awaken this thread here is a nice private purchase period case for a standard 1914 'KO' marked EK2. (I have seen these cases before and many of them held a Godet cross, but this is the cross that was in the case when I purchased it). This is not a recent purchase, but I haven't shown it here before. It is showing its age but that's how I like them.

The caption on the inside of the lid reads:
"Zur Erinnerung an Deutschlands Grosse Zeit"
(In Memory to Germany's Great Time).

And the stamping on the base of the case is very difficult to photograph, but reads:
Eisenberger Etuisfabrik
Max Retsch. Nauhr
Eisenberg SA
Ges. Gesch.

danpatjoe

Another one I picked up last year... a heavily patinated 'EW' marked cross on a DRGM stamped parade mount.