Plus 1 joule concern

Boston

An upgraded model, by definition is not a stock model.

Alvin T. Grey

Leidenfrost wrote: »

You don't get the point...for example if a g36c ''toy-gun'' shooting at a 1 joule muzzle energy is upgraded with a new spring so as to enable it to shoot at 1.2J, it is then capable of discharging a projectile at greater than 1 joule from a barrel,...no matter if the original spring is inserted again...thus making all suck models capable of discharging a projectile at over 1 J

What you bought is incapable of discharging a projectile at greater then one joule.
What you did with it AFTERWARDS is what made it into a weapon. And seeing as you would have done it knowingly, believe me, the first people in line to grass you up would be us other airsofters.

romperstomper

guys, 2 things i think you need to learn from the soccer forums of this world (i have had lots of experience with those).

First, ignore the nonsense purpetrated by WUMs (wind up merchants). You will NEVER defeat their idiotcy with logic. You WILL defeat them by ignoring them.

Second of all, I would appreciate it if WE stuck to the rules. No discussion entertained or
engaged in about the forbidden subject (which i don't need to name)

end of

cherubaul

+1 to the above
never argue with an idiot they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Cuddlesworth

Gatling wrote: »

its it reads over 328fps on the chrono the generaly yes they get turned away

I have Chrono'd at a max once of 329 and been turned away at a popular Dublin site so yes. And I don't hold it against him, he was completely correct.

And by putting in a loose fitting O-ring I dropped the gun by 20 fps. So that makes a difference. Not just the Spring.

Leidenfrost

Hivemind187 wrote: »

It's called an analogy. It's also called paraphrazing and artistic license. That you are unaware of both these concepts is cause for some concern leading into the rest of your post.

Statistically, it doesnt matter how many monkeys you have - given enough time they will write all the major works of any particular 16th century playwright you care to mention.

I am wholly aware of paraphrasing and artistic license...the fact is however you stole Borel's quote and didn't give him credit for it. Secondly you're obviously not aware that a recent study done by the Universitiy plymouth found that monkey's are not random generators...So you are wrong actually.
(though we are getting off topic here)

Hivemind187 wrote: »

What I mean is, the term "can" is meant to be a transitory word, it doesnt apply to the same device once it has been altered, only in a given state.

Actually its you who didnt get the point, I understood your statement quite clearly. Changing the spring, since it is integrate to the mechanism alters the state of the device, it is therefore no longer the same product. You can not condemn something for its potential (regardless of some pretty stupid examples). It is the same as banning monkeys because they might one day infringe on a dead poets intellectual property.

I'l put this more simply so you dont get confused. Change the spring = alter the state. Stock spring = state of CAN NOT. upgrade spring = state of CAN. change spring back = state of CAN NOT.

Getting this now? Different quantum states? In different configurations (non-stock) they may be able to but not in a standard or unaltered way therefore it is DIFFERENT devices which are capable of exceeding the limitation?

I get what you're trying to say, with a new spring it's a different weapon...but I don't see the difference to be honest both can launch a projectile at over 1 joule of energy...if I shot the unmodified weapon in say, a helium gas atmosphere, the weapon would be shooting at a greater muzzle energy, quad erat demonstrandum, the weapon can shoot a projectile at over 1 joule. FACT!

just to clear up any ambivalence:

''Verb: can 2 (could) ''kan
Able to
"fish can swim", "I can drive if you like", "Can I help you?"

''An air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule of kinetic energy or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy

Hivemind187 wrote: »

You can not condemn something for its potential

According to that logic, Drugs and Explosives should be legal?
Are they not condemned illegal because of there potential to damage one's health or others around them?


As for your remarks on quantum states...Firstly, quantum states have nothing got to do with a change of a classical spring...meaning that quantum mechanics need not even be mentioned in this case as it's effects are wholly irrelevant at this level i.e the macro level...you can rest easy knowing that hooke's law will work excellently for all your spring needs.
If you meant quantum states, era Schrodinger's cat...hahah...so what you're trying to say is that when the weapon is in a box or until firing it is both in the over 1 J limit and below it...and it is only upon observation ( or shooting) that we collapse the probability wave function. Discussion of such physical states in relation to theses matters is grossly unnecessary...not to mention causing me to go off topic!

Hivemind187 wrote: »

/looks for suitable "fail" pictures.

A semi-barrel would still constitute a barrel and you would have built a fully automatic firearm. Congratulations. You're now a criminal. Is your mother proud?

By the way, seeking ways to circumvent the 1joule limitation is verboten by the charter - though I suspect a mod will be along shortly to remind you of this.

Alright I'll make it with no barrel then... thus making it completely legal!


Quite frankly I expressed a point by stating that launching a projectile with over 1 joule muzzle energy without a barrel can be done, not in any effort to boast but as a way to make fellow members of this board aware of the flaw in the law...I was merely pointing a hole in it, and trying to get others opinions on it, and in accordance with the title of this thread, I believe that I in no way deserve being called a criminal or have a ''strike'' come upon me for mentioning such a thing, are you a fascist? Do I not have the right of free speech? or to think about illegal activities?... I resent that implication Why did you mention my mother?...I ask you politely to never ever mention my mother again
.

kdouglas wrote: »

Leidenfrost: as Hivemind pointed out, and as per this forum's charter, discussion of anything over 1 Joule is not allowed, you've been given an infraction for breach of forum charter, another breach will be a ban

I appeal the infraction. Your charter must say something to the effect of ''discussion of barreled weapons which can launch a projectile that attains a 1 joule muzzle energy are forbidden'' there is no way it just says ''1 joule'' as that would include cars, the earth,.people on bikes people falling etc. (Though I haven't looked at the charter so I don't know) maybe those things are forbidden and this is secretly a fascism forum...However I don't see people getting ''infractions'' brought to them for discussion of cars etc.
Secondly, If discussion is forbidden then why has this topic remained open for so long? and why isn't everyone you posted on this topic having an infraction brought against them? are we not discussing ''plus one joule concern''? You should probably lock this thread now should you not.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

So, you you are allowed hypothetical analogies about insane airsoft devices which are clearly prohibited in the charter but I can't make mine about monkeys? Double standard having @%;*£#!!!

Analogies are forbidden by the charter?

Hivemind187 wrote: »

As for your design, as far as I am aware there is a gas powered claymre out there and it is about as powerful (maybe less so) than the standard spring one. You would need to use CO2 or another denser gas to achieve any kind of decent propelling of the BB's. You re forgetting that much like in a number of airsoft shotguns and BB showers (thats 40mm grenades that fire a large number of BBs to/at the uninitiated) must divide the energy up into the different things it is propelling. The basic laws of the universe say "You missed something bro!" in that you will need a fairly large resevoir of gas or seriously dense gas in order to propell BB's at the energy you suggest.

Oh yes there are gas powered landmines out there...but not one operating on my design...so that you can pump up the chamber by foot/hand.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

You would need to use CO2 or another denser gas to achieve any kind of decent propelling of the BB's.

haahahahha, Who thought you physics ''bro''
I'll give you a free lesson but the next one will cost you,
Actually I won't waste my time showing you mathematically why lighter gases are better as propellants (no offense, I just don't think you'd get it)...but if you don't believe me? okay...read this and notice how the working gas in this TRANSONIC GUN is HYDROGEN!...''why is that used when CO2 or a heavier gas(denser gas) would be better'' you say? Because you are completely bloody wrong ''bro'' that's why!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gas_gun

I could go on about how the optimum propellant gas (the exhaust) for chemical rocket engines in terms of performance is again hydrogen but I'm lazy.
Anyways...don't go talking about the laws of the universe when you clearly know nothing and then try to pervade disinformation...pick up ''the road to reality'' by roger Penrose if you wish to acquaint yourself with the true laws of the universe ''bro''. Though to be honest there's a lot of concepts in it that I don't fully understand.

You don't need a large reservoir...just a properly rated and scheduled/manufactured one... 7 atmospheres of pressure is safely held in common 10mm wall thickness PVC pipe. don't believe me? google ''sch 80 PVC rating''

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Why would you want them to go with that power/velocity anyway? A claymore detonating at the lane side of HRTA and peppering people in the safe zone is rather pointless.

One word for you, Realism!
I think the current claymores don't properly represent the kill radius of a real m18a1 claymore which is ~50m with 700 projectiles (I'll probably divide the radius by two when making the airsoft version) The initial energy of the bb's probably won't need to be over 1 J but as a proof of concept I might make it so it is slightly above 1 J, though I definitely won't go any higher than 1.5 J as that would start to hurt. No barrel no law against it, am I right?
I believe realism is an integral part of this sport...thus I don't see how I'm breaching any rules here.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Glad to hear criticism is welcome.

You are only looking for an argument.

And your idea has already been patented.

okthxby :pac:.......O.........

Why would I want an argument? I'm just looking for members of this boards opinions on the law etc and anyway didn't someone once say ''Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still retarded.''

My idea is NOT patented yet...sorry!

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

What you bought is incapable of discharging a projectile at greater then one joule.
What you did with it AFTERWARDS is what made it into a weapon. And seeing as you would have done it knowingly, believe me, the first people in line to grass you up would be us other airsofters.

You are clearly blind.
If you read my post properly...you will notice, no doubt to your surprise, that I did not mention at all that I owned an AEG (which I don't) nor did I mention that I actually intended on making an AEG into a firearm. I was merely posing a hypothetically argument that one could do such a thing...and from that I extrapolated the argument, that the AEG even unmodified is a firearm.

As for the ''grassing'' up crap, I'm glad you would so frivolously to make claims and statements based on your delusions of what was actually said or typed... yes that's exactly the kind of deplorable incompetence and completely sickening type of behaviour we need in this sport and indeed in this world!
oh yes!

If this seems like I'm over reacting...well let me tell you a true story, I'll keep it short:
I was once accused of doing a severely illegal act in which I had no hand in (which was later (1 yr) indeed proved to be the case) but for 1 whole year of my life I was questioned twice, taken out of school and alienated... I had to study for my Leaving cert with this nagging thought in the back of my head that I could be sent to prison for a very long time for something I hadn't done before or once I had completed the LC.
If you don't know what this torment is like then you are a lucky person.


If you don't believe I don't own an AEG? check out the eirsoft thread and notice that I recently asking tony where my shipment was as it has not arrived.


As for the other snide comments and remarks:

No I am not the troll that was here last week I've been a member here for quite some time as my ''join date'' states. though I usually lurk. ask the guy who runs the Drogheda airsoft games he knows me.

To the guy calling me an idiot, you do know that name calling is indeed the expression of the bullies own inadequacies and hatred of himself...like the commonly known ''you know what they say about homophobics...they're closet gays''. Just a suggestion, You could read a book and lessen your unconscious self hate? it would do you the world of good.



I think the animosity towards me in this thread really boils down:

(1) Me raising the point that your so called ''legal'' airsoft guns are in fact illegal if you interpret the written law correctly: Your weapon CAN expel a bb over 1 joule...even unmodified... I'd be willing to bet that a 1 joule muzzle energy attaining weapon would be at least 1.15 J if you were playing on a day that was very humid...as water vapour is slightly less dense than dry air it actually decreases the density of the air and thus drag is decreased. At high altitudes where the air is less dense due to the drop in pressure.
So cock your ''bang on 1 joule gun'' at sea level in a freezer and walk up to a mountain top on a hot humid summers day, bring your chrono ...and you'll have a firearm on your hands
which raises another issue...say an airsoft member tweaks his gun so that is bang on 1 J at sea level in the winter and brings it to a game on high ground doesn't need to be a mountain in the summer...he'll be shooting a ''firearm'' at you.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/atmos.html
google external ballistics to show you drug will slow down a projectile.

(2) The other point I brought up about how non barreled hand held weapons can launch projectiles over 1 joule in energy (notice I didn't say a muzzle energy) thus I think the law should be re-written to include this possibility in the interest and protection of Irish citizens. like my claymore idea and by transferring the angular momentum of a spinning wheel onto a projectile like shown here: http://www.fogdog.com/graphics/info/shared/BG_baseball_pitching_machine.gif ...Accuracy wouldn't be great but still dangerous.

So from raising these two points, The discussion with Hivemind has become, according to him an argument, and I also gained a strike/infraction?

All in all, you guys aren't happy with me at all!

Stercus Accidit

Leidenfrost wrote: »

. FACT!

Did you stumble in here from AH?

CAN eh? can.

A potato stuck in an exhaust meets all the stipulations of the firearms act to be a firearm, and would likely pop out at over 1 joule.

A device with a sub 1 joule spring isnt a firearm and cannot propel an object over 1 joule.

Your saying it can be modified to over 1 joule, of course, modified.

Made something new, anything can be modified into anything, what is the difference between changing a spring and changing the whole thing to incorporate a nuclear device, degrees of modification?

What degree of acceptable modification is defined in Irish law? Go look that up.

If it is modified you have made whatever it is after modification.

Absolutely anything can be modified or altered by a human into anything at all.

What is your argument, ban airsoft because someone can mod it to over a joule, which is an illegal act in itself, the device is illegal to own, it is well covered by very strict laws in this country.

I can modify anything into anything, I could stick a potatoe in the exhaust of your car, achieving 1 joule kinetic energy, I could take a rubber band in the office, a fax roll and a pen and create a barreled device for projecting that pen at over 1 joule.

You seem to not realize can by your definition covers every object in the world, do you propose matter is banned?

BTW Hiveminds analogy was a good one, it was a paraphrase, he did not need to add a reference, this isn't a college essay, he obviously assumed you were capable of getting the reference on your own, perhaps this assumption of inteligence on your part was offensive in some way?

/meath man: Feck off troll

kevteljeur

Leidenfrost wrote: »

I am wholly aware of paraphrasing and artistic license...the fact is however you stole Borel's quote and didn't give him credit for it. Secondly you're obviously not aware that a recent study done by the Universitiy plymouth found that monkey's are not random generators...So you are wrong actually.
(though we are getting off topic here)

You are both being terribly pedantic - and believe me when I say that many consider me a specialist in pedantry! That said, I hope I don't get beaten up by any Sunday World readers here (and bonus points to anyone who knows what I'm referring to).

Leidenfrost wrote: »

Me raising the point that your so called ''legal'' airsoft guns are in fact illegal if you interpret the written law correctly: Your weapon CAN expel a bb over 1 joule...even unmodified... I'd be willing to bet that a 1 joule muzzle energy attaining weapon would be at least 1.15 J if you were playing on a day that was very humid...as water vapour is slightly less dense than dry air it actually decreases the density of the air and thus drag is decreased. At high altitudes where the air is less dense due to the drop in pressure.
So cock your ''bang on 1 joule gun'' at sea level in a freezer and walk up to a mountain top on a hot humid summers day, bring your chrono ...and you'll have a firearm on your hands
which raises another issue...say an airsoft member tweaks his gun so that is bang on 1 J at sea level in the winter and brings it to a game on high ground doesn't need to be a mountain in the summer...he'll be shooting a ''firearm'' at you.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/atmos.html
google external ballistics to show you drug will slow down a projectile.

That's interesting, and hadn't occurred to me, though I think in Ireland at least, the effects are negligible - the altitudes here aren't substantial enough. But in theory that would make sense. That said, people bringing their AEGs to exactly 1J rather than .96 or so is an issue (or at least, a distraction) - but generally those people know how to bring it back down again in a hurry too.


Anyway, calm down lads, it was a discussion about the possibility of someone slipping some heavier bbs into their mag and getting a +1J device past testing, regardless of the honour system - let's call it quits and relax? It's just a sport we play for fun...

Stercus Accidit

kevteljeur wrote: »

That's interesting, and hadn't occurred to me, though I think in Ireland at least, the effects are negligible - the altitudes here aren't substantial enough. But in theory that would make sense. That said, people bringing their AEGs to exactly 1J rather than .96 or so is an issue (or at least, a distraction) - but generally those people know how to bring it back down again in a hurry too.


Anyway, calm down lads, it was a discussion about the possibility of someone slipping some heavier bbs into their mag and getting a +1J device past testing, regardless of the honour system - let's call it quits and relax? It's just a sport we play for fun...

+1

And in that slightly more probable situation, the aeg in an unmodified state being over one joule would be illegal, so is covered by our laws, what else do people want?

This is a ridiculous argument to have taken hold.

And as said above, reeks of being pedantic interpretation of language in the law, monkeys, helium, ffs.

What a waste of time, the law is in place, it does its job, >1 joule and it illegal and well catered for by the law, less than its not.

If it goes over 1 joule by changes in the atmosphere and temperature, it is >1 joule, illegal, and illegal all the time.

Being modified, it is no longer the same device, and the original device was not illegal, the subsequent modified one is, and is catered to by our lovely laws already in place.

Leidenfrost

Motosam wrote: »

Did you stumble in here from AH?

A potato stuck in an exhaust meets all the stipulations of the firearms act to be a firearm, and would likely pop out at over 1 joule.

A device with a sub 1 joule spring isnt a firearm and cannot propel an object over 1 joule.

You seem to not realize can by your definition covers every object in the world, do you propose matter is banned?
/meath man: Feck off troll
l

Where/what is ''AH''
That's it exactly, the whole barrel and 1 joule thing is ridiculous, as you kindly pointed out, the exhaust is a firearm too under the definition in this country.
In this day in age you need a license for the rights to own matter..deeds and such jk
I don't want to ban airsoft? I just think the law should be written correctly so as to eliminate any possibility of future animousity between airsoft players and the law.


What is wrong with Meath Men, was ''meath man'' the name of the troll?

kevteljeur wrote: »

That's interesting, and hadn't occurred to me, though I think in Ireland at least, the effects are negligible - the altitudes here aren't substantial enough. But in theory that would make sense. That said, people bringing their AEGs to exactly 1J rather than .96 or so is an issue (or at least, a distraction) - but generally those people know how to bring it back down again in a hurry too.


Anyway, calm down lads, it was a discussion about the possibility of someone slipping some heavier bbs into their mag and getting a +1J device past testing, regardless of the honour system - let's call it quits and relax? It's just a sport we play for fun...

There are many Irish airsoft retailers that claim there products are bang on 1J an unexpected newbie who purchases one would, for talks sake, may have no knowledge of how to make it legal on the hill side airsoft site...and may not be allowed to play... or worse still be charged with owning a firearm without a licence.
Although I don't own a chrono I believe the effects woud be more substantial than we think and even with doing calculations with fluid dynamics (evil stuff) the actual results may be different than real world data ( it may come to a surprise that sufficiently humid air is actually roughly half as dense as cool dry air)...someone who does own a chrono should test the average velocity, with a standard bb weight, at sea level at night and then again on top of the ''groom hill'' airsoft site during a humid day (I can't remember the name of the place exactly).
That way we can get an estimate on the average velocity gained (when using .2g) and thus only purchase toys with a max velocity of 328 fps/ 100mps minus the velocity gain on the hill.

Yeah airsoft is great fun, don't get me wrong!

Motosam wrote: »

And in that slightly more probable situation, the aeg in an unmodified state being over one joule would be illegal, so is covered by our laws, what else do people want?

This is a ridiculous argument to have taken hold.

Yes but you may be the owner of an illegal device right now, without your knowledge, As you don't want to break the law (I don't think any of us here do) I think it would be in our best of interests to deal with the possibility, should we not?

Puding

someone who does own a chrono should test the average velocity, with a standard bb weight, at sea level at night and then again on top of the ''groom hill'' airsoft site during a humid day (I can't remember the name of the place exactly).
That way we can get an estimate on the average velocity gained (when using .2g) and thus only purchase toys with a max velocity of 328 fps/ 100mps minus the velocity gain on the hill.

maybe you should take this up with the garda as well, they will be most pleased to learn how you can instruct them on making there testing as well more accurate

kdouglas

I think this thread has gone sufficiently off-topic now.

Leidenfrost: The very fact that we all regularly import, buy and play airsoft is testament to the fact that your wrong about the use of the word can, this discussion has been had before on here and while i appreciate the point your trying to make, the facts prove otherwise.

Furthermore, your ideas about a claymore type device firing bbs at greater than 1 joule; although the device may not contain a barrel and therefore come under the direct ruling of our 1 Joule law, there are plenty of other paragraphs in the Firearms Act and the many other acts available in the Irish Statute Book that I'm sure one of them applies to a device firing projectiles without a barrel using mechanical propulsion.

Also, this may seem pedantic, but in future, do not use the word weapon to describe any airsoft device, something only becomes a weapon when used in such a fashion.