New State Schools & Religion

Dades

Bishops seek religion veto on teachers in new schools

"THE Catholic Church has drawn up a list of "non-negotiable" demands in return for its involvement in new multi-denominational primary schools."

Turning to the characteristic spirit of the school, the Church side suggested a clause to the effect: "There will be an emphasis on promoting right relationship with God, self, others and creation."

Was listening to this story on the radio this morning, and looking forward to releasing the hounds in here.

CerebralCortex

Whats to be said? They have no place in any education system neither does any other religious institution.

seamus

Why are they asking for religious input at all?

Have a single class in lieu of the current religion class that provides ethical, moral and social guidance (do they call this "Social Science" in the US?). If any parent wants their child to have religious instruction they can do so after school.

Once the child hits ten, provide education on religion that includes a brief and discussion of all of the major religions, how they came about and how they intersect - perhaps as part of the history curriculum.

Dades

seamus wrote: »

Why are they asking for religious input at all?

So they don't miss lose out on indoctrinating kids when they are at their most impressionable, I assume!

adamd164

That's about the size of it. Bending over backwards to accomodate them because ... er, they were taught it themselves when they were in school. =/

philologos

Dades wrote: »

So they don't miss lose out on indoctrinating kids when they are at their most impressionable, I assume!

In some interfaith schools they allow for people of different faiths to go to their respective religious leaders / institutions if their parents will it during the religion class. I don't see much harm in that.

also, adamd I don't think most people believe because they were taught it in school. It took personal discovery to an extent for me.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

....also, adamd I don't think most people believe because they were taught it in school. It took personal discovery to an extent for me.

You've grown up in Ireland right? I you have I find shocking that you would believe the above statement to be through from the age of self awareness to the day I left secondary school I was fed catholic doctrine as was everyone else.

adamd164

Twould want to be a heck of a coincidence that you happened to discover Christianity (Catholicism?), given that you were raised here, Jakkass. What are the chances, out of every religion that's ever been established to worship every god that's ever been imagined, that you'd land on the predominant religion here. How lucky.

(course, if you're Jewish or a Muslim, feel free to enlighten me)

philologos

Hm, perhaps it might seem a coincidence that I discovered Christianity (actually Anglicanism!), given that I was in Ireland yes. However I looked to other religious texts during that time also. You could raise that point yes.

How would being Jewish or Muslim make anything different, surely if I wanted to be way out there I would have chose a Dharmic religion instead of an Abrahamic one?

Sure, Christianity was available to me in Ireland. However if it's the case that it's due to geography, what's your reason for being atheist? Were you raised atheist or did you decide later in your life?

Back to the original point however, you said it is due to schooling that one retained faith. I don't think that if I didn't take a serious look of the Bible for myself, it would have stuck for me.

adamd164

Well I think it would be different actually. The culture you were raised in was very much a Christian one. You were exposed to Christian ideals as a child. But, in all seriousness, I'd love to know how you went about ascertaining which god - out of the countless numbers that have been postulated - was the one who actually created the Universe? What were the criteria?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I remember being taught that the jews killed jesus as a child.

great times

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

Hm, perhaps it might seem a coincidence that I discovered Christianity (actually Anglicanism!), given that I was in Ireland yes. However I looked to other religious texts during that time also. You could raise that point yes.

How would being Jewish or Muslim make anything different, surely if I wanted to be way out there I would have chose a Dharmic religion instead of an Abrahamic one?

Sure, Christianity was available to me in Ireland. However if it's the case that it's due to geography, what's your reason for being atheist? Were you raised atheist or did you decide later in your life?

Back to the original point however, you said it is due to schooling that one retained faith. I don't think that if I didn't take a serious look of the Bible for myself, it would have stuck for me.

Its good that you found your faith that way but in Ireland we have a situation were people are herded into a belief system and made part of it without being allowed to think for themselves. I'm pretty sure in my national school that you could have the students believing in whatever they were told was the truth. Belief is very personal and it shouldn't be taught it should be discovered like you discovered christianity and I atheism. Although adamd164 asks a good question?

philologos

Jesus was due to be martyred according to Biblical prophesy. It's not a proper statement to say that it should be appended to the Jews. Jesus was a Jew Himself.

adamd164: That's down to looking at the history etc behind the religion and the archaeology that we have to suggest that many of the things of the Bible were indeed probable.

Rev Hellfire

Mordeth wrote: »

I remember being taught that the jews killed jesus as a child.

Who was the imposter on the cross then ! Answers are needed !

philologos

CerebalCortex wrote:

Its good that you found your faith that way but in Ireland we have a situation were people are herded into a belief system and made part of it without being allowed to think for themselves. I'm pretty sure in my national school that you could have the students believing in whatever they were told was the truth. Belief is very personal and it shouldn't be taught it should be discovered like you discovered christianity and I atheism.

I actually think it was Muhammad of Islam, that wrote in the Qur'an there was no compulsion in religion. That's one of his statements I agree with. Jesus in the New Testament encouraged us to think about what Christianity would mean for each of us before we fully committed to it, and indeed to think about the cost of being a follower (Luke 14:25-32)

Sangre

Jakkass wrote: »

Jesus was due to be martyred according to Biblical prophesy. It's not a proper statement to say that it should be appended to the Jews. Jesus was a Jew Himself.

Typical self hating Jew!

philologos

Sangre wrote: »

Typical self hating Jew!

Is it really wrong to be critical of religious practices, and seek to reform them? I happen not to think so. Returning to Biblical truth is something that we must continually do in the Church, that's why we had the European and Anglican Reformations.

death1234567

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Whats to be said? They have no place in any education system neither does any other religious institution.

DADES wrote: »

So they don't miss lose out on indoctrinating kids when they are at their most impressionable, I assume!

Nail. Head.

seamus

To a certain extent many people will hold onto those things that they were told as a child, even if those things are inherently irrational or have been disproven or made redundant.

It's hard to come up with any specific examples of this (as society discards them, most people follows), but take any urban myth (the kind that are constantly disproven on mythbusters) and see how many people think the the myth is an actual truth. They think this because they were told at a young age that it's true and have never since questioned its veracity - it's just always been there.

One interesting one in Ireland is the concept of the seasons. Almost everyone in Ireland knows the four seasons and what months they are - we learned them from 5 years of age.

If you tell people that some countries don't have four seasons or that our Winter months aren't the Winter months in every other country, you'll get a variety of responses. Some people will be astonished, but thankful for the new information. Other people will be just plain confused and won't understand the concept. And other people will see your point of view but will attempt to argue with you, insistent that what they learned in school is the truth and that you're completely wrong.

philologos

seamus - that begs the question, how come atheists here have shed so many of these things they were taught as children?

seamus

Jakkass wrote: »

seamus - that begs the question, how come atheists here have shed so many of these things they were taught as children?

I couldn't tell you specifically, but disposing of or questioning childhood beliefs isn't limited to religion. It may be something that children are encouraged to do - so while you're being told what is true, you are also being encouraged to question these "truths".

I'm of the opinion that it's largely an educational thing - not necessarily related to how much education a person has received, but more related to a person's "appetite" for education. If you are interested in knowing more, then you are naturally going to be predisposed to questioning your existing knowledge rather than accepting it.

How does someone get a bigger "appetite" for knowledge? No idea. I'd be very interested to know or see any related studies. Though I personally suspect that a good basic level of education and positive parental feedback towards academic achievement would play a part in it.

Hellm0

Jakkass wrote: »

seamus - that begs the question, how come atheists here have shed so many of these things they were taught as children?

Luck? Intelligence? The answer to that question would have to be a generalization. Each persons faith or lack of is a personal discovery. I believe the point people are trying to make is that Christianity has such a foothold in the european/western mind that it is seen as the "default" religion(regardless of which branch). The problem of course with schools teaching religion from this perspective is that it is biased in a very open fashion, a trait not welcome in a secular and therefore equal state. Christian doctrine should be taught from the outside in and with a skeptical eye, in the same fashion as all religions.

That said at this point many customs and concepts to do with Christianity have leaked over into mainstream culture and are held not so much as doctrine in the traditional sense but as emblems of identity in Ireland, a country which has a very strong traditional culture. People who are not even very religious become enraged when such emblems are threatened(such as the American "one nation under god" thing) not so much out of religious zealotry but rather in defense of our culture. To those of us who have seen the light(or the lack thereof) these artifacts of times gone by(for instance the recent debate over serving alcohol on good friday) are offensive due to their religious content and should be removed.

philologos

Hellm0: I don't think it's fair to say that faith neccessarily corrolates with intelligence. If it's seen as the default religion, I don't know why. Arguably the people who believe through school are mostly lapset Christians as the rate of attendance is actually only in the 40% region on Sunday mornings for Roman Catholic churches anyway.

As for Christianity being taught with a skeptical eye, I think that it should be yes, but I think it should be only taught by people who have correct qualifications in the study of Christianity at the same time.

Hellm0 wrote:

To those of us who have seen the light(or the lack thereof) these artifacts of times gone by(for instance the recent debate over serving alcohol on good friday) are offensive due to their religious content and should be removed.

Well surely it is up to the Christian populace to be adhering to this rule, and what better way to test it in some regards than to allow certain things to happen and see how popular they are.

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

how come atheists here have shed so many of these things they were taught as children?

I can't speak for anybody else, but in my case, I found out that when I studied greek, that the text of the NT does not correspond to the understanding that people have of it; when I read up on history after school, I found out that the history I was taught in school was completely one-sided; intellectually, no serious debate ever took place in school about religion (even failing to notice that the story does not make sense); reading up on social research indicated that being religious does not make you a better person, and frequently makes one worse, particularly in groups; more history showed that the churches have endlessly abused their power and privilege; biology showed me that you do not need an external agent to create the illusion of design, and so on and so on.

You could probably pick out some of these reasons, or similar ones, as the ones why you don't believe that Santa Claus or Zeus exists; I just extend exactly the same reasoning a bit further and conclude that your god doesn't exist either, and that religion is at best, useless cultural baggage, and at worst, a direct threat to stability.

philologos

robindch wrote: »

I can't speak for anybody else, but in my case, I found out that when I studied greek, that the text of the NT does not correspond to the understanding that people have of it;

That's highly interesting, but surely Christian scholars and theologians have been studying the Scriptures for centuries. Asides from this, we have concordances (such as Strongs) and various Biblical commentaries to look to also.

robindch wrote:

biology showed me that you do not need an external agent to create the illusion of design, and so on and so on.

Again, a very interesting point that we could discuss for a bit. But surely because there is no necessity (in your opinion) for an external agent to be involved in design, that doesn't really shed any light on it being more or less true.

Hellm0

Jakkass wrote: »

Hellm0: I don't think it's fair to say that faith neccessarily corrolates with intelligence.

Of course you wouldn't, you being a man of faith:P That said my post did state that any answer to your question would be a generalization, the two I posed were merely opinion.

Jakkass wrote: »

If it's seen as the default religion, I don't know why.

Because Christians throughout the ages have murdered, lied and cheated in the name of spreading their religion. That of course is true of many other faiths however when you look at Christianities track record there is no denying innocent blood has been shed in the name of Jesus(look at south America). Ireland is just another victim.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for Christianity being taught with a skeptical eye, I think that it should be yes, but I think it should be only taught by people who have correct qualifications in the study of Christianity at the same time.

So you agree with me but only if there is a Christian teacher? That doesn't fit

Jakkass wrote: »

Well surely it is up to the Christian populace to be adhering to this rule, and what better way to test it in some regards than to allow certain things to happen and see how popular they are.

Good Friday is not popular it's tolerated. There would be no public outcry if drink were to be served, if anything people would be happy I should think.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

seamus - that begs the question, how come atheists here have shed so many of these things they were taught as children?

Isn't that question kind of moot? That people can shake off what they are taught as children does not make it okay to teach them anything.

School ends at about 3pm. If a parent wants their child to be raised a catholic, then there are plenty of hours left in the day to do it. And Sundays of course.

But I wonder who really wants all these little catholics - the parents or the church? How many of these parents actually go to mass, or have anything but the fluffiest notion of catholic doctrine?

seamus

Hellm0 wrote: »

Good Friday is not popular it's tolerated. There would be no public outcry if drink were to be served, if anything people would be happy I should think.

At this point, I would say that Good Friday is treated as a national joke. Because drink cannot be sold, Good Friday has now become one of the biggest party nights of the year.

The reason we still have it is political will. If a politician was to attempt to abolish the rule, some Catholic bishop or priest would condemn it as a move against the Catholic church, accuse the politician in question of not being a Catholic and then the politician would have to air their laundry in public.

It's much easier to be a politician with undisclosed religious views than to be an atheist/agnostic politician. There just isn't enough public pressure to abolish the rule because nobody gives it all that much thought.

Xhristy

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Tim Robbins

It's clear Hannafin is fence sitting on this issue. Terrified of upsetting someone. It's a simple issue, you either favour equality or you don't.

In a Republic "all children should be cherished equally". She could solve this problem, simply and quickly. But she is terrified she might cause a few negative comments from church goers and loose some vote.

Another FF politician with no concept of right and wrong. I doubt very much Jesus would fence sit or discriminate on this issue.

Xhristy

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