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New State Schools & Religion

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    #92
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    rev hellfire proud muslim faith school advocate
    Absolutely, that's me as long as its state run and follows a state curriculum, much better to have that than god knows what been taught to the masses behind closed doors.

    As for reality based, I prefer dealing with what we have now and accomplishing what is possible given the time and resources available. :rolleyes:


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    #93
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Absolutely, that's me as long as its state run and follows a state curriculum, much better to have that than god knows what been taught to the masses behind closed doors.

    As for reality based, I prefer dealing with what we have now and accomplishing what is possible given the time and resources available. :rolleyes:

    you clearly don't know what you talking about, you're advocating religious schools for the religious, so i mention a different religion and suddenly you don't want religious schools for the religious.

    JESUS CHRIST!


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    #94
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    you clearly don't know what you talking about, you're advocating religious schools for the religious, so i mention a different religion and suddenly you don't want religious schools for the religious.

    JESUS CHRIST!
    yes yes rant away. religion bad.


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    #95
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    you clearly don't know what you talking about, you're advocating religious schools for the religious, so i mention a different religion and suddenly you don't want religious schools for the religious.

    JESUS CHRIST!

    If Muslims wish to have an Islamic school, and there is enough demand I don't see why not.


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    #96
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    yes yes rant away. religion bad.

    Wow. How patronising is that?


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    #97
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Wow. How patronising is that?

    I'm sure if I set my mind to it I can do better.


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    #98
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Wow. How patronising is that?
    I wouldn't shine too bright a light on the the comment that prompted it, tbh.


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    #99
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    yes yes rant away. religion bad.

    i didn't say religion was bad, in those posts, i just said you don't have clue what your talking about.

    in this thread we're trying to find out how the new schools we'll be structured
    if you don't have anything intelligent to add don't.


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    #100
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    on the radio they said ET schools did try to teach religion separatly during the school day but that 'it didn't work', first im surprised ET schools did this and secondly why didn't it work anyone with kids at an ET school know?


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    #101
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    i didn't say religion was bad, in those posts, i just said you don't have clue what your talking about.

    in this thread we're trying to find out how the new schools we'll be structured
    if you don't have anything intelligent to add don't.

    Yes clearly I don't know what I'm talking about since I don't agree with you :rolleyes:


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    #102
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Yes clearly I don't know what I'm talking about since I don't agree with you :rolleyes:
    rev hellfire proud muslim faith school advocate

    you agreed with this statement
    Absolutely, that's me as long as its state run and follows a state curriculum, much better to have that than god knows what been taught to the masses behind closed doors.

    but saying as long as they are state run they are not faith schools, your pretending to be all accommodating but those statements and others in this thread are inconsistent and show you don't even understand the detail of the issues and you don't really care to.


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    #103
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    two contradicting articles in the indo today by DQ and Paul Rowe
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/note-to-the-minister---parents-have-role-too-1327275.html
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/parents-must-be-at-centre-of--debate-on-religious-teaching-1329172.html
    never a good thing
    As the body that has been highlighting these issues over many years, Educate Together considers that the approach being adopted is shortsighted and defective. In some of our early schools we were compelled to adopt an approach similar to that being proposed in this pilot.

    Unsound

    It proved to be educationally unsound and led to difficult and complex negotiations that have resulted in the current Educate Together model in which children are not segregated according to religion within the statutory school day.

    In contrast, the VEC pilot, as announced, involves the compulsory registration and separation of children from the age of four, according to their parents' religion. Such practices have been shown to be socially divisive, unethical and educationally flawed. In a primary school class, they critically impinge on the socialisation of children and are counter-productive to the aim of preparing young people for a society in which religious discrimination is illegal.

    The details revealed yesterday suggest that there is already an agreement to give religious bodies authority over the employment of teachers and a wide range of privileges within a State school. It involves the unequal provision of State services between children whose families belong to 'main' religions and those who do not.


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    #104
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    but saying as long as they are state run they are not faith schools, your pretending to be all accommodating but those statements and others in this thread are inconsistent and show you don't even understand the detail of the issues and you don't really care to.
    Perhaps we are on crossed lines here. Let me clarify my position.

    On the topic of multi-denominational schools I believe these are a natural progression from the current system to one which is more encompassing reflecting the growth of other faiths within Irish society in general. I disagreed with the grouping of this 37% with the 11% who favour non-denominational schools. My reasoning is that both those who wish for a catholic schooling and those who wish for the multi-denominational are natural bed-fellows, both want a religious element within the school system.

    On those grounds I agree with the catholic churches principle that on the matter of religious instruction (only) that the person giving this should be compatible with the ideology of the particular church.

    On the topic of the Islamic faith school I was merely saying I have no objection to what religious element is taught so long as the general school syllabus follows the standard department of education ones and the religious element is compatible with our society in general ie. No Antisemitism propaganda, no creationism taught as scientific fact, etc.

    One further refinement: I firmly believe religion is better taught within schools than left to home instruction. It allows those who come from a more fundamentalist/conservative view exposure to main stream religious thought for their respective faiths which on the whole is typically more benign. America I suspect would not be so conservative if this was the case is my view for example.


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    #105
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    two contradicting articles in the indo today by DQ and Paul Rowe
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/note-to-the-minister---parents-have-role-too-1327275.html
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/parents-must-be-at-centre-of--debate-on-religious-teaching-1329172.html
    never a good thing
    That second article got me so annoyed I had to submit a comment, which may or may not appear.

    EDIT: Ah they did post it! From some guy called "Conor" at 14:13. ;)


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    #106
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    there is nothing 'natural' about the progression of education in this country from religious to secular, the taoiseach jack lynch had to personally intervene to get the first ET school open when the dept of ed blocked them on behalf of the church, and even then it seems they had to teach religion in school


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    #107
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    there is nothing 'natural' about the progression of education in this country from religious to secular.
    I'm not sure that what is proposed is a progression from a religious educational system to a fully secular one. I suspect most people would view multi-denominational schools as still religious in character; and while the general population seem in favour of such systems it is in my view a 'natural' progression from the existing system to one acceptable to society at large.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since I suspect our views on what is required for the educational system here are so fundamentally different a consensus can never be reached.


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    #108
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Here's what you have to do to get into a faith school in the US .... faith schools, No Thanks! ;)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPXmgXDJ3vQ


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    #109
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    pH wrote: »
    Here's what you have to do to get into a faith school in the US .... faith schools, No Thanks! ;)
    Yeah you're dead right.
    With the current exchange rate that's only about €190 being waived!


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    #110
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I don't know about the rest of yee, but Religious intruction when I was growing up (I went to a CBS), didn't overrule what my parents thought me. My parents were my authority on things as a kid. If I was thought a Catholic doctrine that my Parents had thought me was wrong, then it was my parents that won the war. My parents' method was always to provoke thought in me, rather than say, this is the truth end of story. Surely every parent is responsible for their childs 'social education'? I can understand people as a matter of principle saying that they don't want their children even having to go through that, but I doubt there are many, indeed any, children who have overruled their parents teaching for the sake of their teachers.

    Someone mentioned on another thread, with the increase in secularism, that religions must be running scared at the minute, A point which I agreed with. However, I find there is a certain frenzy being whipped up here by secularists in relation to schools, that personally, I don't think it actually matters in the big scheme of things.

    religion in school? Meh.

    No religion in school? Meh.


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    #111
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    you would say that...


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    #112
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    you would say that...

    ... and you wouldnt ...


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