Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

speedboatchase

Regardless of her personal experiences, I think this case should be dealt with rationally. The woman entered the country illegally and is an illegal immigrant. If the courts set a precedent and then 10 more ppl give the same excuse of FGM, should they all stay? Well, they're going to have to if we pass on her case.

And of course the news that she would be allowed stay would be international and show the world that we're a soft touch when it comes to illegal immigration, so "10 more ppl" would be a gross understatement. I feel sorry for the kids but the argument that "ooh we'll just allow it for her, the poor woman" doesnt hold weight because it sets a danerous precedent that plenty of illegal immigrants would follow.

What's everyone elses thoughts? I'm glad this is making people face up to the horrors of female genitial mutilation but that is, I repeat NOT, a product of the West and our values. It is Nigerias cross to bear and under no circumstances should our values and ideals be compromised or vilified over whatever decision is finally met IMO

dresden8

How in the spirit of multi-culturalism can we slag off Nigeria's ancient and wise customs?

Shame on all those racists who judge all those people just because they happen to be foreigners.

Pete4779

Yup. I absolutely think she and anyone she is responsible for should be deported. The far-left appeasment is what is causing this endless appeal system, and she should not be here in the first place.

It's you and me that will end up paying - and I would rather pay (my taxes) to help some local kid get free schooling than pay for endless legal costs and social welfare support for people who are here purely to leech our system.

If isn't about the money or financial welfare tourism in Ireland, these people wouldn't be here. They certainly weren't trying their best to stay when we were poor as dirt 20 years ago, and it's not like there are suddenly loads of direct flights from here to Lagos.

(Anybody from Nigeria who isn't here with a working visa must be an illegal immigrant or is else claiming asylum for some reason as there is no other way they could arrive here as first port of call in EU and claim asylum. E.g., the major of Portlaoise, who to claim asylum valiantly told us of the threats against him from his home in Nigeria and how he needed to stay, but where he subsequently was received as an honoured guest at his home town after becoming Mayor).

Of course there is a threat of FMG in Nigeria. Likewise, there is a threat of religious persecution in Northern Ireland but I don't see a lot of people there claiming asylum in Pakistan, Nigeria or Saudi Arabia.

wes

speedboatchase wrote: »

What's everyone elses thoughts? I'm glad this is making people face up to the horrors of female genitial mutilation but that is, I repeat NOT, a product of the West and our values. It is Nigerias cross to bear and under no circumstances should our values and ideals be compromised or vilified over whatever decision is finally met IMO

So knowingly sending her daughters back to be mutilated is alright then? Sorry, thats bull. If we are against FGM, we should help this Woman and her children. Instead of sending them back, where they girls will be mutilated. We should allow them to stay, they are in very real danger and we shouldn't turn our back on them. Allowing them to stay is upholding our values, sending them back would be taking our values and tossing them in a rubbish tip.

speedboatchase

FGM is disgusting BUT it is not our concern, its Nigerias. We shouldn't overhaul our laws or create a dangerous precedent to allow illegal immigrants the right to appease our governments by exploiting this appalling facet of THEIR country's customs, not ours.

If she stays, how many families arrive with the same excuse? FGM protestors are in the right but this is the wrong fight

dsmythy

Kevin Myers wrote a piece on this.

Pretty much echos my own thoughts on it.

Bubs101

Considering the economic climate I think it's about time that the state started focusing on Ireland and lowered the amount of time and money spent on foreign nationals and aid. Use her and her kids as an example and send them back. She broke the law, it should be enofrced

Mr.Micro

We should show a bit of compassion and allow the woman and her children to
stay in Ireland. Why should she or her children be forced back to possible mutilation, regardless of how the practice is not Ireland's responsibility. To go back to the same argument I am sure has been stated countless times before, us Irish went everywhere in the world looking for opportunity and work, so let us be generous and wise.

dsmythy

Mr.Micro wrote: »

We should show a bit of compassion and allow the woman and her children to
stay in Ireland. Why should she or her children be forced back to possible mutilation, regardless of how the practice is not Ireland's responsibility. To go back to the same argument I am sure has been stated countless times before, us Irish went everywhere in the world looking for opportunity and work, so let us be generous and wise.

God i hate that argument. I don't think it has anything to do with us today and our policies towards migration.

Mr.Micro

dsmythy wrote: »

God i hate that argument. I don't think it has anything to do with us today and our policies towards migration.

I think it is very relevant in that its only 5 minutes ago that people started to come to live and work in Ireland, before that we were a people exporter. Now we want to close the door. It does not work like that we have a responsibility to all people who live or reside in Ireland.

Sesshoumaru

dsmythy wrote: »

Kevin Myers wrote a piece on this.

Pretty much echos my own thoughts on it.

I had heard of this in the news a while back but had no idea this murderer walked free. This for me just exemplifies everything that is wrong with the West today. Multiculturalist hippies telling people how bad they are for belonging to Western civilisation and to respect inferior cultural practices :mad:

Anyway I am sceptical about this woman's claims. But at the same time I'd be hesitant to send her back. I'd let her stay as long as every effort is made to make sure she finds employment here and works for a living. If it's as bad as she claims in Nigeria, then she should be very happy just to be able to live here and work.

Pete4779

Mr.Micro wrote: »

We should show a bit of compassion and allow the woman and her children to
stay in Ireland. Why should she or her children be forced back to possible mutilation, regardless of how the practice is not Ireland's responsibility. To go back to the same argument I am sure has been stated countless times before, us Irish went everywhere in the world looking for opportunity and work, so let us be generous and wise.

1. She and here children should be deported because I personally no longer can afford to keep feeding the voracious welfare appetite of the third world as it arrives in Ireland. This is what tax is. When you wonder why the hospitals, roads and education systems of taxpayers are so bad, no you know why: so many millions are tied up asylum and immigration costs. Next time some asylum seeker keeps appealing, gets costs, etc., awarded for a few hundred grand, remember that it means no ultrasound scanner, no CT scanner, no new social work team in your community. It is why there is no local breast cancer service. It is why there is no extra teacher to make the classes smaller.

2. Irish people went abroad to work and in conditions that had zero social welfare or support structures by the government. The equivalent would
be for her to remain and receive no social supports. The situations are not equivalent, or else Ireland would be claiming reparations from the UK for the lack of support during the famine the same as Israel gets support form Germany. We don't, and we didn't.

Mr.Micro

Pete4779, I do'nt buy that argument. The health service and the rest have always been c..p in Ireland due to incompetent governments in the past and the like, appointing non experts in jobs where they did not have a clue. Since the boom times started in 1995 or thereabouts there has been a little bit of infrastructure put in but not enough. Education, transport, health all still falling behind and its nothing to do with funding foreign nationals etc its just down right waste and incompetence.

Mr.Micro

dresden8 wrote: »

Leave Nigeria alone you racist.

I presume thats an attempt at a flat joke? I never mentioned Nigeria nor am I a racist.

dsmythy

ShakeyBlakey wrote: »

20year ago we were leaving in our droves you muppit, what do you think of the illegal irish all around the world you fool

Quit the abuse would you. They should be deported to Ireland.

dsmythy

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I think it is very relevant in that its only 5 minutes ago that people started to come to live and work in Ireland, before that we were a people exporter. Now we want to close the door. It does not work like that we have a responsibility to all people who live or reside in Ireland.

And i hope those who are granted permission to stay are all taken care of. But if the deportation order is eventually given the go ahead then she should be returned home. We don't owe anybody anything.

GuanYin

Tone down the abuse or you'll all be banned.

Mr.Micro

dsmythy wrote: »

And i hope those who are granted permission to stay are all taken care of. But if the deportation order is eventually given the go ahead then she should be returned home. We don't owe anybody anything.

If the deportation order is served then its down to the authorities, to act on what they have decided. No we do not owe anything to anybody but to our own people at home and abroad and our European partners. We should still treat immigration cases individually and give each case individual consideration and never lose compassion.

Pete4779

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Pete4779, I do'nt buy that argument.

fair enough. But allow me a chance to show how much our tax money is diverted away from services for taxpayers to asylum seekers:

Please note that welfare payments to asylum seekers are paid by the HSE sectors (previously health boards). The huge budgets giving to HSE sectors (see www.hse.ie are not for salaries for doctors, nurses and hospital equipment. Billions are spent every year on social services.

1. Oireactas Report 2000: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0537/D.0537.200105240147.html
- €50 million costs for year 2000 in SWA (Supplemental Welfare Allowance)
- €57 million in estimated costs for 2001 in SWA

2. RTE 2003: http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1008/mcdowellm.html
- €47 million in 2003 in processing alone
- €330 million in 2003 cost to other departments (this means things like health and education)

3. PD's Mary Harney Self-congratulatory statement (2007): http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/about_us/national_conference_speeches/speech_by_minister_michael_mcdowell_td/
- €120 Million costs per year to Dept. of Justice, Equality and Law Reform alone.
- €340 Million costs per year to all departments to pay for non-justice related costs for asylum seekers (this is where things like SWA, Rent Allowances, for asylum seekers get paid out of HSe budgets).


So, you may still not believe me. However, it is as clear as day and public knowledge that there are hundreds of millions of tax payer money being handed over to asylum seekers in various forms every year. That €340 Million *every year* is a lot of money - and I do believe that without those asylum seeker support costs, the money could have been better spent on getting more hospital facilitires, beds, nurses, doctors, teachers, SNAs, etc.,. Do you not agree?

Noone denies that the health service was ever anything but awful, but that is no reason to throw in the towel and give our tax money to asylum seekers who never earned or payed a cent for it. It is not our job to heal the world anymore than it is America's job to police it. However, we are footing the bill for health care for the third world just like americans are footing the military bill. It is a ridiculous rebuttle to imply that "sure it's always been bad, so we should just accept it".

It is time to stop our tax payments going to asylum seekers. It is time our tax improved our local health, education and transport services.

purple'n'gold

If there is a problem with FGM in Nigeria, its Nigeria’s problem and up to Nigeria to deal with it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with us. This lady and her children are in this country illegally and are due to be deported. Hopefully they will be, very soon, and I also hope it reported widely and internationally. The word has to go out; Ireland is not a soft touch. Illegal immigrants are not welcome.

Mr.Micro

Pete4779, I accept it costs money but I do think that all our EU partners have the same problems. In our democratic country that has become very prosperous we have to accept that migration to here will occur, some migrants will be illegal, economic, asylum seekers etc. We cannot just shut up shop and close our borders. It then takes time to process all these new people and then there is the processes of appeal etc. As you rightly say it all costs big money. Its a problem historically AFAIK that we have never had, so its a learning curve.

Firetrap

For once, I find myself agreeing with Kevin Myers :eek: It's hard not to think that Ireland's been ridden sideways by a certain percentage of asylum seekers because we didn't/don't have systems in place to deal with this relatively new phenomenon.

It's hard not to get the impression that if she hadn't cited FGM as a reason not to be deported, it would have been torture or something like that. Let's face it, if any of us were in her shoes, we'd try every trick in the book as well.

GuanYin

Shakeyblakey banned, dresden8 warned.

Even the slightest hint of abuse or racism in this thread and you'll be banned on the spot.

Keep it civil and use the report post function if you have an issue.

Malice

Firetrap wrote: »

For once, I find myself agreeing with Kevin Myers :eek:

Same here, it feels strange .

Firetrap wrote:

It's hard not to get the impression that if she hadn't cited FGM as a reason not to be deported, it would have been torture or something like that. Let's face it, if any of us were in her shoes, we'd try every trick in the book as well.

He makes a very valid point where he wonders how many countries she passed through between Nigeria and Ireland. It reminds me of the case of that autistic Nigerian boy last year where the media quietly ignored the fact that the woman and her son had gone from Nigeria to Italy and from there to Ireland before being deported back to Nigeria.

As far as I'm aware the procedure must be done with parental consent so if she's not going to give consent, where's the issue? Of course these questions will probably be avoided because the ever lovable Residents Against Racism will rear their heads to offer their opinion to the national media.

walrusgumble

dresden8 wrote: »

How in the spirit of multi-culturalism can we slag off Nigeria's ancient and wise customs?

Shame on all those racists who judge all those people just because they happen to be foreigners.

you are missing the whole point

it is a bit rich considerering you do not know the facts of this case as the RAC & RAT transcript are not available to the public. It is up to the applicant to prove that her case is credible and plausible and that her fear is matched by an objective fear. We do not know what credibility issues if any there are available. As required by international case law and the handbook on criteria in determining refugee status, we also do not know if she actually went to the police and sought their protection, or if the police acted, if she did not and had no reasonable reason for failing to do so, she has failed to exhaust all her options in her home country - ie allow the police the opportunity to protect her and bring culprits to justice

realible country of origin provides the FGM is not common in Nigeria, only in small parts, however, the police treat this matter serious, particularily when it leads to a murder. moreover, it is only carried out against children by at least 5 years old. moreover, coi provides that there are ngo's available to provide assistance and their is the opportunity to make a complaint to the higher level in the police department.

so, provided her case stands - which is highly possible it does not (cases like these rarely succeed in other jurisdictions, just because she has a problem, COI provides that it is possible for her to avail of state protection in her home country. unless such evidence provides the contrary this she should not be allowed to stay as she and her family have no need for protection.

its as simple as that, however, if evidence is contrary well then faire enough she deserves to stay, it got NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. the sooner some people get that into their heads the better., the court can only decide on how the deicsion was made, did the dept have regard for all info and apply the right tests. the court in this instance does not mean its a court of appeal - the dept , ORAC & RAT is left to deciding what facts are true or not

walrusgumble

wes wrote: »

So knowingly sending her daughters back to be mutilated is alright then? Sorry, thats bull. If we are against FGM, we should help this Woman and her children. Instead of sending them back, where they girls will be mutilated. We should allow them to stay, they are in very real danger and we shouldn't turn our back on them. Allowing them to stay is upholding our values, sending them back would be taking our values and tossing them in a rubbish tip.

have a check of coi from homeoffice.gov, us dept of state, canadian refugee board (all these sites can be got at irishrefugeecouncil.ie) does fgm really happen in nigeria?, if so is it a major problem that the authorities do not try and tackle this? is they do, which coi provides is the case, then there is no case for subsidiary protection or leave to remain. are they really in danger, because if not, is there story reasonable, if not, then they do not meet the criteria for non refoulement. again, this case has nothing to do with upholding our values


if anything, by preventing frivolous cases in upholds the intergrity of our asylum system and common good. taking cases that do not support themselves and are cock and bull are not in the interest of the state

daithicarr

a lot of this money is squandered on inefficent services. i am sure you are all aware of what the public servant culture in this country is like. In reialdn, we prevent asylum seekers from working, we give them foos and boarding and they get a mesely 15 euro a week each for personal spending. thats exactly how much they get. i know because a few of my friends have worked with asylum seekers. its the system which is at fault, our goverment are notoriously inefficent with just about everything they put there hand to, sinking our money down the drain across the board.

In Ireland we get about 4,000 asylum applications a year, and accept about 400. those 400 then go on to work, thats what they want, so the contribute to the society. the problem is the other 3,600 might not be instantly deported as there cases are processed very slowly.

while i would be some what sceptical of people claiming asylum form Nigeria, as its not the worst place in the world. our goverment turn away plenty of genuine cases. people from places like Iraq and Afghanistan etc, where lets face it, they might have some case.

many of the people coming from these places are quite skilled and willing to work, its a waste for them and for us to have the languishing in refugee centers.

irish_bob

Pete4779 wrote: »

1. She and here children should be deported because I personally no longer can afford to keep feeding the voracious welfare appetite of the third world as it arrives in Ireland. This is what tax is. When you wonder why the hospitals, roads and education systems of taxpayers are so bad, no you know why: so many millions are tied up asylum and immigration costs. Next time some asylum seeker keeps appealing, gets costs, etc., awarded for a few hundred grand, remember that it means no ultrasound scanner, no CT scanner, no new social work team in your community. It is why there is no local breast cancer service. It is why there is no extra teacher to make the classes smaller.

2. Irish people went abroad to work and in conditions that had zero social welfare or support structures by the government. The equivalent would
be for her to remain and receive no social supports. The situations are not equivalent, or else Ireland would be claiming reparations from the UK for the lack of support during the famine the same as Israel gets support form Germany. We don't, and we didn't.

i can no longer afford to feed the voracious appetite of our over paid and under worked surplus to requirements public servants

however i think this woman should be allowed to stay , i think this is a genuine case

one other thing , i find it amusing that certain people in here who in a thread about muslim customs of FGM , will defend this practice to the hilt but when this practice is a debate in the context of deporting an illegal immigrant , the same people use threat of FGM as an argument for the immigrants to remain here

wes

walrusgumble wrote: »

have a check of coi from homeoffice.gov, us dept of state, canadian refugee board (all these sites can be got at irishrefugeecouncil.ie) does fgm really happen in nigeria?, if so is it a major problem that the authorities do not try and tackle this? is they do, which coi provides is the case, then there is no case for subsidiary protection or leave to remain. are they really in danger, because if not, is there story reasonable, if not, then they do not meet the criteria for non refoulement. again, this case has nothing to do with upholding our values


if anything, by preventing frivolous cases in upholds the intergrity of our asylum system and common good. taking cases that do not support themselves and are cock and bull are not in the interest of the state

If as your trying to say that FGM isn't something thats common in Nigeria and the police there are willing to protect her, then yes she should be sent home. I will have to read up on it, to see if what you saying is accurate.

As for our values, I was responding to other posters, who seemed to have the impression that her children could suffer FGM, even if sent back, and had no issue with it, saying its not our problem. However, as you pointed out that may not be the case. If they are in genuine danger of FGM however, to send them back would be pretty inhumane.

Dr_Teeth

FGM is no arguement for asylum. It's not like her kids are going to be dragged off the plane the moment it touches down in Lagos Airport and attacked. It's a barbaric practice but uncommon in Nigeria and only happens in the really backward Muslim north from what I have read, and it happens because parents want it to happen, for whatever crazy cultural reason.

Liam Byrne

Can I ask a question ? Why did she arrive as an "illegal" immigrant ?? Why didn't she go through the proper channels ?

I would guess that if she'd arrived legally that there would be no issue with her being here.

So, broken down to that, is her plight of her own making ?