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Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

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    #302
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    lego wrote: »
    You've really hit the nail on the head here. And it does matter, and you know it.
    No, I don't know why it matters. Please enlighten me.
    lego wrote: »
    Pretty much all who are not deported are given leave to remain on other grounds...
    Evidence?


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    #303
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Do I indeed?
    Life in Ireland, she says, is difficult, particularly given her comfortable upbringing in Nigeria. She had a job as a banking executive, while her husband worked in business. They had a nice house, three cars - a Jeep, an Opel and a Mazda - two maids, and all three children went to either private creches or schools.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2008/1122/1227288132612.html

    I don't know anyone living on welfare in this country with a lifestyle like that.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    Here you go. [7 MB PDF document]
    So unemployment among Nigerians is 31%, rather than the 62% figure you were implying? So the majority of Nigerians are NOT unemployed?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I suggest you read up on what rent allowance actually is.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I can’t, but as I’ve already said, I think it’s totally irrelevant. I’m not sure what you think you’re proving here?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    You’re continued assertion that Ireland has a “generous welfare system” is laughable. Why don’t you try living on welfare for a while and let me know how you get on? I had to do it myself for a short time a few years ago and it was not a pleasant experience.

    Anyway, could you explain in what way Ms. Izevbekhai’s “tale” is “trumped-up”?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    Er, maybe because they were fleeing in fear of their lives? Or are you admitting that there is often an economic motive in "seeking asylum"?
    An asylum seeker is obviously going to apply for asylum in a wealthy county if they have the means to get there, especially if there are kids involved. If you were fleeing Nigeria, would you pop over the border to Cameroon (as most Nigerian asylum seekers do) or would you use the resources available to you and try and get a bit further afield to Ireland, UK, Germany, US , Canada or wherever? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that a large percentage (relative to other nationalities) of Nigerians working in this country are trained professionals (according to the CSO document you linked to).


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    #304
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    KingSitric wrote: »
    Nigeria is touting itself as a leader in modern Africa.
    The US refers to itself as “the leader of the free world”; doesn’t make it so.


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    #305
    KingSitric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27 ✭KingSitric


    djpbarry wrote: »
    The US refers to itself as “the leader of the free world”; doesn’t make it so.

    But we're not talking about the US. We're talking about Nigeria and a particular case of illegal asylum here.
    My argument is that we need to switch this around, and think out of the box. Pamela Izevbekhai can be a beacon of hope to Africans in Africa. Irish aid agencies and NGO's should be jumping at the chance to support her in her own country, and make the Nigerian government live up to its obligations and promises.


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    #306
    blackiebest
    Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭blackiebest


    I know Pamela, and reading this thread is really hard, imagine your good friend being discussed in such a way. Her kids are a delight and are a sight for weary eyes seeing how natural Irish life is for them. I said in a different forum that I am ashamed to be Irish if she is deported, her kids are forced to face what can only be a childs worst horror, the fear of what could happen! I mean it to my bone marrow.

    All of you who have posted here could have a very different opinion if you knew her and knew her circumstances, how she interacts with people, her intelect and her amazing aura. She is a very proud African woman who, for right or wrong, ended up here with her daughters almost five years ago. I believe that fate will decide that she will stay here, be it from a court, a system or some slight of chance and that her story will become a becon, she will continue to generate debate, stimulate opinions etc. This is good, for us, as a country and as a nation.

    It will be the wrong decision if this lady is taken from Sligo and deported.


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    #307
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So unemployment among Nigerians is 31%, rather than the 62% figure you were implying? So the majority of Nigerians are NOT unemployed?
    I .

    And to save others PDF pain......
    Page 38 wrote:
    The percentage of Nigerians aged 15 or over at
    work in 2006 was the lowest of all groups featured
    at 38 per cent, though this splits unevenly between
    males (50%) and females (30%). In comparison
    with the other nationalities profiled, a relatively high
    number were unemployed or looking for their first
    job (31%). About one in five females was looking
    after the home and 17 per cent were students. The
    dominant industry was health and social work; one
    in five was working as a professional.
    Among the top occupations were care assistants
    and attendants (11%), security guards (7%), sales
    assistants (7%) and doctors (6%).

    The split therefore refers to the total Nigerian population over 15, not excluding those in fulltime education or home makers.[/LEFT]


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    #308
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    djpbarry wrote: »
    An asylum seeker is obviously going to apply for asylum in a wealthy county if they have the means to get there, especially if there are kids involved. If you were fleeing Nigeria, would you pop over the border to Cameroon (as most Nigerian asylum seekers do) or would you use the resources available to you and try and get a bit further afield to Ireland, UK, Germany, US , Canada or wherever? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that a large percentage (relative to other nationalities) of Nigerians working in this country are trained professionals (according to the CSO document you linked to).

    Why not apply for a visa so and come here legally?


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    #309
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #310
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #311
    hellboy99
    Registered Users Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭hellboy99


    blackiebest wrote: »
    All of you who have posted here could have a very different opinion if you knew her and knew her circumstances, how she interacts with people, her intelect and her amazing aura.
    We don't and we don't know if whatever circumstances she has back home are true or not.
    At the end of the day we have rules here in place, we just can't go and disregard them in this deportation case or in any other case, it would just be a total mockery of the system in place here, it will send out the wrong message and open the flood gates for anybody to come to this country.


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    #312
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    KingSitric wrote: »
    My argument is that we need to switch this around, and think out of the box. Pamela Izevbekhai can be a beacon of hope to Africans in Africa. Irish aid agencies and NGO's should be jumping at the chance to support her in her own country, and make the Nigerian government live up to its obligations and promises.
    You think aid agencies are not doing this already?


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    #313
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    EF wrote: »
    Why not apply for a visa so and come here legally?
    Because that would be a temporary arrangement?


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    #314
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    So everyone in Nigeria earns exactly $2,100 per annum? You don’t think it’s in any way possible that Ms. Izevbekhai earned far more than that?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    No, of course you were not. Let’s just say you were being rather selective with statistics.
    donegalfella wrote: »
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    Straw man. I was comparing a good life in Nigeria (which apparently does not exist, according to you) to a bad life here.
    donegalfella wrote: »
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    Ah yes, you mean the cries of “LIAR, LIAR!”
    donegalfella wrote: »
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    I might if that figure was in any way accurate. As of 2005, the UNHCR reports that Ireland had 589 Nigerian refugees. If only 0.01% of Nigerian asylum applicants were successfully recognised as refugees, that would mean that as of 2005, Ireland received a grand total of 5.89 MILLION applications from Nigerian nationals. Now, you think maybe that 0.01% figure you keep throwing around may be an ever so slight underestimate?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    That term gets thrown around so much these days it’s lost all meaning.

    Oh, and you didn’t answer my question: Cameroon or Ireland; which would you opt for?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Seems a lot of posters on here are allowing their prejudice against Nigerians to cloud their judgment.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    According to Amnesty International, the Nigerian authorities are not exactly up to the task.

    In the US, the threat of FGM is often accepted as a basis for asylum:
    FGM As Future Persecution. An asylum applicant must demonstrate that he is unable to avail himself of the protection of his country because of “persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution.” FGM is recognized by most federal circuits and the BIA as a form of persecution. The BIA, for example, has characterized FGM as a form of “sexual oppression ... to ensure male dominance and exploitation,” practiced in order to “overcome sexual characteristics of young women ... who have not been, and do not wish to be, subjected to FGM.” Therefore, if an asylum applicant successfully shows a well-founded fear of FGM if she returns to her home country, that alone would satisfy the well-founded fear element of an asylum claim.

    Some asylum applicants have also made the argument that they have a well-founded fear of persecution based on the fear that a daughter will suffer FGM upon arrival at the applicant’s home country. Several federal circuits seem to at least implicitly accept this proposition. The BIA has, however, rejected an argument proposed by a childless applicant who based her asylum claim on the fear that her future, unborn daughters may suffer FGM, classifying this fear as too speculative to be well-founded.
    http://ftp.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS22810.pdf


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    #315
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    djpbarry wrote: »
    .

    Oh, and you didn’t answer my question: Cameroon or Ireland; which would you opt for?

    ....the question known in phillosophical circles as 'Dunphys Dilemma'.


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    #316
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #317
    lego
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭lego


    djpbarry wrote: »
    No, I don't know why it matters. Please enlighten me.
    Evidence?

    Travelling through other safe countries first is not the behaviour of someone who is in fear for their lives, it is the behaviour of someone looking for a soft touch country.

    Asylum seekers who are refused refugee status don't just vanish into thin air, and they are not deported. What do you think happens to them?

    Granted, a fairly large proportion become illegal immigrants (What they were anyway, considering the result of their applications) but not a majority. The rest are granted exceptional leave to remain or get residency on a scam such as the fake marriage to an EU national scam.


    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n12849319

    http://catholic-perspective.blogspot.com/2008/09/up-to-900-failed-asylum-seekers-have.html


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    #318
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Indeed it is, but you said "Per capita income in Nigeria is $2,100."
    donegalfella wrote: »
    Of course it's possible.
    Great. So we've established that it's possible that she may be telling the truth. That's a good start.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    If I recall correctly (I'll try and dig out the article I read about this - it was a couple of years ago), she attempted to relocate within Nigeria after the birth of her two daughters, but her husband's family found her. She then decided it was necessary to leave the country.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    That's some nice twisting of the facts to suit your argument.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    No you wouldn't and you know it. Given a straight choice between Cameroon and Ireland, just about everyone on this forum would pick Ireland every time.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    :rolleyes: Unbelievable.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Oh, we’re not talking about other countries now? You were when it suited your argument to do so.


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    #319
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #320
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    lego wrote: »
    Travelling through other safe countries first is not the behaviour of someone who is in fear for their lives, it is the behaviour of someone looking for a soft touch country.
    So you think that because of Ireland’s geographical location, we should not be receiving any asylum applications? How likely do you think is that other EU states would be happy with such a situation?
    lego wrote: »
    Asylum seekers who are refused refugee status don't just vanish into thin air, and they are not deported. What do you think happens to them?
    Some leave voluntarily. Some are deported. Some remain illegally (and are most likely exploited by Irish employers). This is going off-topic into the subject of illegal immigration and human trafficking.


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    #321
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #322
    veronica
    Closed Accounts Posts: 153 ✭✭veronica


    Enough is Enough it's time to close down our borders and put in place a Visa system like other countries.It's time to give Ireland back to the Irish.We are far too concerned about other countries image abroad always giving aid to others but no supporting for our own like Simon Community ISPCC Rape Crisis etc., I am sick of these tv and radio ads for to support others abroad and if u speak of this of course u are a Racist but I see my self a realist....send her back home and stop wasting taxpayers money.How many countries this she pass over to get here!


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    #323
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #324
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Yes, I read what you wrote, which basically amounted to "My argument is not a racist one, but don't get me started on those Nigerians." You're generalising based on nationality (not very accurate generalisations, might I add) and you are basing your opinion of Ms. Pamela Izevbekhai on those generalisations.


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    #325
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #326
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #327
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    You seem to have be having a great deal of difficulty in accepting that an unsuccessful asylum application is not necessarily a "bogus" one.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at here? You're jumping from asylum seekers to immigrants?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    How so?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Really? The courts don't seem to think so.


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    #328
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Is this not precisely what I (and others) have argued throughout this thread?


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    #329
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #330
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #331
    balanced view
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭balanced view


    The whole refugee system is geared to provide protection to those and only those who are deserving and fulfill certain criteria. It is not about entering a country legally or illegally. This doesn't matter in refugee cases and anyone fleeing persecution does not alway have the time or facilities to do everything legally.
    The whole point of this case is providing safety and protection to 2 little infant girls and their mother.
    I think anyone who is actually fully aware of all the facts and risks facing the 3 applicants would have no hestitation in providing those protections


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