Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

Options
1…1011131516…99

Comments

  • Options
    #362
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I'm not sure about the "floodgates" argument. As I mentioned earlier, in the US, the threat of FGM is regarded as grounds for asylum, yet Nigerian nationals do not appear to be "flooding" into the US claiming asylum.


  • Options
    #363
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #364
    Swords driver
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Swords driver


    Just a thought, as FGM is a crime under Nigerian law
    Quote Professor Okonofua-www.rufarm.kabissa.org/articles/fgm.htm
    "The law in section 2 defines mutilation as 'any cutting, incision, damage or removal of any part or all of the female organ. This law therefore deals with female circumcision and not male. You can therefore still circumcise your male children.

    Section 4, lists the principal offenders as:

    i) The person herself who offers herself for circumcision, so you cannot tell the court that it is my body and I have a right over it.
    ii) Any person who either forces, entices or cause any person to undergo FGM.
    iii) Any parent or guardian, you can't tell the court that it is my child or ward so it is not the government's business. It is a crime against the state.
    iv) The performer of the operation of FGM, you cannot therefore claim that I was in my office or house when the child was brought to me.

    For the offence of FGM, it is irrelevant that the female consented. Consent is therefore not a defence to FGM, you cannot also plead that it is a tradition of your people (see section 3)

    Under Section 5, the people who therefore have the power of arrest are the Police, officers of the Ministry of Health, officers of the Local Government or any other authorized person.

    Once the prosecution has proved its case the penalty is a conviction for not less than 3 years imprisonment or option of fine for not less than N3,000 or both (section 7).

    Any person who obstructs or assaults any officer in discharge of his duties under this law shall be liable for summary conviction to a fine of N2,000 or 1 year imprisonment or both (section 9)."
    Why did Nigeria not request her extradition on charges as above, child neglect and manslaughter ? Why did the lady firstly get a tourist visa to the UK before claiming asylum in Ireland and why was the Dublin Regulation not applied at first instance ?.
    It should also be remembered that FGM is not "practiced" throughout Nigeria so internal movement to a "safer area" would be possible.

    It would appear that rather then fleeing many traditional rituals and tribal customs, many "asylum seekers" are actually bringing the customs and rites which they claim to flee into Europe, we have seen children die from DIY circumcisions, muti killings, tribal witchcraft and the selling of bush meat in many european countries. The abuse of welfare systems across Europe is staggering and I fear the only answer is to start deportations on a mass scale to stop this eating into the social and cultural fabric of European countries. It will be a sad day for our country when some genuine African in true danger is turned away because of the behaviour of his fellow Africans who today abuse Ireland and Europe's charity and shelter.

    The West cannot solve Africa's problems, Africa's people must start getting their home countries in order.


  • Options
    #365
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #366
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    micmclo wrote: »
    She should have stayed in the first "safe" country she arrived in.
    Why?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #367
    zap27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭zap27


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why?

    You're right Oscar, why should she indeed. She has a better chance of being set up on welfare for life just like thousands of her fellow scammers here.

    At least some are being caught. This is today's indo. Notice the nationality of those mainly caught scamming. Probably just scratching the surface.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-uncover-83642m-fraud-by-asylum-applicants-1551743.html


  • Options
    #368
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #369
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #370
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Some FACTS:

    There has been a significant decrease in those seeking asylum in Ireland in recent years.

    - 320,000 people in total have come to live and work in Ireland in last 5 years. Asylum seekers are smallest category of these migrants entering Ireland.
    - During the same 5 years applications for Asylum were close to 33,000.
    - In 2006 199,850 people sought Asylum in EU countries. Only 2% made in Ireland (4,310 people).
    - 63% decrease in asylum seekers since 2002.
    -Over 650 recommendations were made for refugees to be recognised in Ireland in 2006
    - At end of 2006 there were 8,500 recognised refugees in Ireland.
    - Returning home in safety and dignity is the solution best preferred by refugees. E. g vast majority of Kosovars who were given safety in Ireland in 1999 voluntarily returned home when it was safe.
    -Many refugees unable to return home are working and contributing their skills in Ireland.
    - By law asylum seekers are not allowed to work although many of them would like too.
    - Asylum Seekers are housed in accommodation around the country where they receive food and a small cash payment of 19.10 euro per adult and 9.60 euro per child per week.
    - They are not entitled to go on public housing lists.
    - When recognised, refugees must move from their asylum accommodation centres. If they are unable to pay for accommodation, they can apply for assistance or for the public housing waiting listthe same as Irish nationals. They are asesses on the same criteria as others.
    - Nether Asylum seekers nor refugees receive free mobile phones or cars from the state as some inaccurate reports have suggested


  • Options
    #371
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    And what would that be based on?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Link please. I don't have time to trawl through court statements.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I think you'll find a large chunk goes to law practitioners.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    You don't? Where do you draw the line?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I was just about to ask you the same thing. After all, you've been doing far more complaining about the current system than I have.

    But seeing as you asked first, proper facilities to house asylum seekers would be a good start. We don't receive very many so it shouldn't be that difficult to implement and will save money in the long run. I would also be open to the idea of allowing asylum seekers to work and pay their own way.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Does it? Or does it suggest that she exhausted the options available to her in Nigeria before fleeing?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Of course it's not surprising. As I've said before, every single person on this forum would choose an affluent country over a developing country if they were seeking asylum - it's just common sense.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Well that's interesting, isn't it? So, if almost all of the Nigerians who were unemployed in 2006 were asylum seekers, does that not mean that almost none of the Nigerians in Ireland at that time who were eligible to work were unemployed?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Oh yes, I forgot. All the Nigerians are spongers. They're not really in any danger at all. Amnesty International are just making all that stuff up that they put in their annual reports.

    :rolleyes:


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #372
    rkeane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭rkeane


    with respect, what has that got to do with the case of Pamela Izevbekhai?

    Her case has more holes than swiss cheese....and more & more information is coming out everyday. This case is a joke.


  • Options
    #373
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    zap27 wrote: »
    You're right Oscar, why should she indeed.
    Well, why should she?
    zap27 wrote: »
    This is today's indo. Notice the nationality of those mainly caught scamming. Probably just scratching the surface.
    I bet they are just scratching the surface - I'm sure there are plenty of Irish fraudsters yet to be caught.

    You know what the first thing I thought was when I looked over that article? Our welfare system is in desperate need of reform.


  • Options
    #374
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    rkeane wrote: »
    Her case has more holes than swiss cheese....and more & more information is coming out everyday. This case is a joke.
    I've lost track how many times you've come out with comments like this and you've yet to provide anything to back up your claims.


  • Options
    #375
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    zap27 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-uncover-83642m-fraud-by-asylum-applicants-1551743.html

    Gotta hand it to ya zap27 Schadenfreude AND Impecable Timing

    Hats off sir :D


  • Options
    #376
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    zap27 wrote: »
    You're right Oscar, why should she indeed.
    It was a genuine question: why should she?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    At what?


  • Options
    #377
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,405 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    There is very rarely any scientific or medical purpose for many cultural things. Would make for a boring world though, wouldn't it?
    Medical associations in most of the Western world now prohibit the practice

    Fantastic, but the West is not all the world. We have some pretty squirrely cultural morals ourselves, from the point of view of some other cultures.
    Sorry, but FGM should have no legitimacy as a "cultural tradition." It should not be talked about as if it were analogous to a Jew lighting a Menorah or a Muslim woman wearing a headscarf. It is a barbaric, inhumane thing to do to a girl, and it needs to be eradicated.

    I may happen to agree with you as a matter of personal opinion, it's highly unlikely that were I to have a daughter I'd take her down the road to the local witch-doctor for a quick slicing. Heck, I'm not even sure if I would want my son, were I to have one, circumcised even though I am aware of a few benefits, and it didn't seem to do me any great harm. However, who am I to tell another what to believe in? I mean, FGM is far from the only bizarre body mutilation going on in the world. Is there a movement going on in the world to ban lip disks? Is there any possible medical benefit to having a lip the size of a CD?
    Except for the fact that the girl involved is left with a mutilated vulva, and probably without her clitoris. That's a nasty enough side-effect for me.

    Sounds like shoddy workmanship.
    There is a culture in the West involving clit piercings. My understanding is that it's somewhat hit-or-miss as occasionally the nerve is hit just wrong, and all feeling is destroyed. It's as bad as not having a clitoris at all, as near as I can tell and I would personally consider it a form of FGM. Yet the practice continues unabated. Why should this not be a concern of ours? Is it somehow more culturally acceptable to us?

    NTM


  • Options
    #378
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Maniac Moron - you need to go read up on FGM. and stop pulling the cultural relativism card - it's old.


  • Options
    #379
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,405 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    it's old

    Doesn't make it invalid.

    NTM


  • Options
    #380
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Doesn't make it invalid.

    NTM

    Yes, cultural relativism is invalid in this instance. According to the WHO:
    FGM is recognized internationally as a violation of the human rights of girls and women. It reflects deep-rooted inequality between the sexes, and constitutes an extreme form of discrimination against women. It is nearly always carried out on minors and is a violation of the rights of children. The practice also violates a person's rights to health, security and physical integrity, the right to be free from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and the right to life when the procedure results in death.

    Some things are universal, like um... not wanting to be tortured. FFS, we're not talking about scarves here.


  • Options
    #381
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Doesn't make it invalid.

    What makes it invalid is that it can be an apology for misogyny , homophobia and even Naziism ( if we accept German nationalism circ. 1930's as being a different culture to our own "Western" and/or modern culture). Such a "belief" system is bankrupt.

    ( if believing in nothing like cultural relativists do can be called a belief)


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #382
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,405 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It doesn't seem to have been internally recognised as such by many Nigerians, though.

    Just like any other questionable practise, there are three basic options.

    1) Do nothing.
    2) Attempt to eradicate it. Ban it, make it illegal, punish those who do it, and attempt to educate people as well. Hope that it does not force such practicioners even further underground.
    3) Accept that people are going to do it anyway, and at least bring it out into the open where it can be monitored and carried out with less risk.

    These should sound familiar, they've been pretty much the same options for anything from prostitution to drug use, and the arguments for and against are pretty much the same. You may not like Option 3, but it is an option to be considered. Obviously option 2 is, from our perspective, the preferred option, but how likely is it to be successful? Particularly in the immediate future, whilst we're working towards Option 2, maybe Option 3 should be provided in the interim.

    Because until Option 2 has met with 100% success, just like the wars on drugs or abortions or any other such, there will still be such procedures carried out on a mud floor in a straw-roofed hut using a dull, rusty blade regardless of how much we disapprove of it.

    NTM


  • Options
    #383
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd



    3) Accept that people are going to do it anyway, and at least bring it out into the open where it can be monitored and carried out with less risk.

    Accept that "people" are going to do what where? That we will ahve FGM in the West? do we allow this for certain cultures in the West, or for everybody. What is the cultural relativist(spit) response to that?


  • Options
    #384
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    by the way you seem to have very little ability to differentiate between a practice (like drug use) carried out by adults which is pleasurable to them, and not harmful to others which is therefore hard to eradicate and undesirable to legislate against, and a mutalating practice carried out by adults on children who have not given their consent.


  • Options
    #385
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,405 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    asdasd wrote: »
    Accept that "people" are going to do what where? That we will ahve FGM in the West? do we allow this for certain cultures in the West, or for everybody. What is the cultural relativist(spit) response to that?

    My immediate thinking is 'our country, our laws.' FGM does not have any traction in Western nations, but you can certainly make the argument for allowing it for cultural purposes if it can be done safely.
    and a mutalating practice carried out by adults on children who have not given their consent.

    I assure you that nobody asked me for my consent before they hacked at my genitalia with a blade. In fact, I'm not even sure anyone asked my parents, neither of them are Jewish. Whilst acknowledging the difference in degree between FGM and male circumcision, I'm not so sure I see the distinction in principle.
    It is also a generally acknowledged principle that parents are responsible for, and have decision-making authority for their kids. What you need to do is convince the parents not to have it done, not just outright say 'you can't do that.'

    NTM


  • Options
    #386
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    My immediate thinking is 'our country, our laws.' FGM does not have any traction in Western nations, but you can certainly make the argument for allowing it for cultural purposes if it can be done safely.
    I'd love to hear what argument you can make for FGM..go on.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I assure you that nobody asked me for my consent before they hacked at my genitalia with a blade. In fact, I'm not even sure anyone asked my parents, neither of them are Jewish. Whilst acknowledging the difference in degree between FGM and male circumcision, I'm not so sure I see the distinction in principle.
    It is also a generally acknowledged principle that parents are responsible for, and have decision-making authority for their kids. What you need to do is convince the parents not to have it done, not just outright say 'you can't do that.'
    While a clear distinction can be made between male circumcision and most FGM, which is very extreme and of a more severe and damaging nature, you're right that the concept of circumcising any child is wrong. In fact, Denmark has banned (or is about to ban) all child circumcision - male or female:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3625859,00.html

    (btw, I don't agree with the sentiment of that article)


  • Options
    #387
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #388
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #389
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    It struck me as avoiding a perfectly serious question with a flippant response, and I'm wondering why - after having the question asked three times - it still goes unanswered.

    The reason I asked the question is that I'm expecting an answer along the lines of how the Dublin convention requires it, which - despite how often it's repeated - isn't even remotely close to being true.

    The reason people think that Nigerians should apply for asylum in the first "safe" country they arrive in is because that country won't be Ireland.


  • Options
    #390
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #391
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    asdasd wrote: »
    by the way you seem to have very little ability to differentiate between a practice (like drug use) carried out by adults which is pleasurable to them, and not harmful to others.

    What about gangland warefare?
    Families destroyed by malfunctioning members?
    Roberies to get money for drugs?
    People in S America forced to grow coca?

    I think its was a relevent comparision. Controling something like this, as well as eduacation, might be more productive than trying to eradicate it.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement