Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

marcsignal · 26-11-2008 8:44pm

yes

which of course, conclusively proves she is genuine, right ?

I'm pretty sure plenty of people who knew the other 2 Nigerians "Olivia Agbonlahor" (with the Autistic Child) and "Kunlee Elunhanla" (the leaving cert student) believed they were genuine too. Whether the person in the wig believes Pamela Izevbekhai is another question, as it's the only thing that really carries any weight. So far that doesn't look too promising.

Nodin · 26-11-2008 8:55pm

They get 19 Euro a week.

Permabear · 26-11-2008 8:59pm

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Manic Moran · 26-11-2008 9:23pm

I'm only pointing out the differences in the comparison, as you do with various of my arguments.

I'm not saying don't make it illegal. I'm proposing that a 'grey market' should be set up. There is ample precedent for that sort of thing. Over time the combination of legal enforcement and cultural change will have the desired effect. But you do need to have some sort of control system to deal with the numerous people who do not wish to comply with the law, and will carry out the practice until they are caught. The alternative is to simply leave the fate of the young girls to a game of "Can I beat the cops or not?"

Not any more it isn't, at least in Ireland. It took many years of campaigning to reduce its acceptability, but it wasn't that long ago that driving down to the pub for a pint or two was completely unremarkable. The same sort of campaigning which needs to happen in Nigeria.

Not just legal enforcement. There is a general public feeling that such fighting bloodsports are wrong. Public tips come in to the police to help break up the rings, they would not be doing that if they didn't feel that it was the right thing to do.

A proposal I have little problem with. All I'm saying is that perhaps one should consider that even when illegal, many operations will be carried out in really deplorable settings and that until one can stop them, one should minimize the damage.

Misses my point. I'm working on the presumption that a nationwide Nigerian law will be imposed, and that the Nigerian police force, however effective they may or may not happen to be, does what it can to enforce the law. I'm suggesting that even with all the best intentions of the government in Abuja that there will still be a large number of girls facing the blade, and we can either ignore them on the basis that "we're doing enough, we think. It just sucks to be them" or we can carry out additional actions to at least reduce, if we can't prevent, their suffering.

Neither do I. But that doesn't negate the problem that the parents want it done, and will have it done. If not by someone who knows what they're doing, then by someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

"Thank you doctor. I have been duly advised." (Goes around corner) "Hallo Shaman. The doctor won't carry out the tradition of my family. Would you do the honours in your humble hut please?"

Absolutely the doctor should advise against. But if they're that insistant upon it, it's going to happen whether the doctor likes it or not.

NTM

djpbarry · 26-11-2008 9:39pm

No, I am not, but it is clear that there has been a misunderstanding somewhere, so let’s just move on, shall we?

I wasn’t attempting to explain it at all – such would be impossible without full access to the complete census data.

I presume by “particular population group”, you mean Nigerians? Rather than unemployed people? And what exactly does “legitimate right to be irate” mean? You’re saying that it’s ok for people to perpetuate negative stereotypes of Nigerians because a minority of them were unemployed according to the most recent census?

:rolleyes:

How hard is it to provide a link?

How much should they allocate? What could be done to reduce the cost?

Why is that? What is the cost to the state of welfare for refugees?

Nope. The number of asylum applications made in Ireland has been declining for a number of years now. In fact, I believe the number of applications lodged worldwide is also declining.

Aid embargoes rarely help anyone. Besides, I don’t think Nigeria receives much, if any, aid from Ireland.

oscarBravo · 26-11-2008 10:00pm

So if a genuine asylum seeker is successful and is allowed to stay here, but doesn't immediately find work, they're left homeless and starving?

Manic Moran · 26-11-2008 10:10pm

As I was having a think about it in the chow line, my Donegal sparring partner, would it be fair to summarise our philosophical differences thusly?

We both would like to see as an end goal the end of FGM in Nigeria.

You believe that the best immediate course of action is to completely help as many girls as possible, and that any who are not helped are simply statistically unfortunate and that the numbers suffering the misfortune will be tolerable.

I believe that it is an acceptable alternative in the short term to have a lower number of completely prevented cases of FGM in trade of having no cases at all of a girl going under the blade in unsanitary conditions and performed by an amateur.

Assuming that we can agree on these crude position statments as representative, can we at least agree that the position of the other has at least some sense behind it, without necessarily agreeing with them?

NTM

Permabear · 26-11-2008 10:17pm

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Nodin · 26-11-2008 10:18pm

So a possible fraud/genuine needy case can have the 19 Euro, but one who has been found to be genuine refugee case by the Irish Government can hump off?

Permabear · 26-11-2008 10:19pm

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Permabear · 26-11-2008 10:20pm

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Permabear · 26-11-2008 10:30pm

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balanced view · 26-11-2008 10:47pm

Surely any reasonable person with a "forward looking" assessment of this case would have said; " Yes. It is more than likely that her in-laws, who have already forced FGM on her first born infant girl with fatal consequences, will do the exact same thing to her next two infant girls. Remember, her in-laws have continously threatened this since the day they were born and have also made several kidnap attempts on the infants. That's why she had to leave Nigeria.
In my opinion, the one decision-maker in this case has clearly come to an totally illogical and arbitrary conclusion which will more than likely result in two infants being mutiliated on their return to their native country. Not to mention the vengence that will be invoked by her in-laws for taking their grand-daughters away from them.
Who, with any bit of a conscience, would want to place these girls back in peril again?

Nodin · 26-11-2008 10:57pm

But what if they can't find work?

balanced view · 26-11-2008 11:06pm

Manic Moran · 26-11-2008 11:08pm

And when the next two infants and their mother show up?

Or the ones after them?

NTM

balanced view · 26-11-2008 11:15pm

I assumed with all your knowledge on this matter that you would be already aware that persons who are granted "refugee status" are entitled to work.
THowever in order to claim social welfare payments they must also pass the "habitual residence" test of at least 2 years residence in this state and, of course, have the required PRSI payments to qualify for jobseekers benefit - Just the same as all the other fellow human beings in this country.

balanced view · 26-11-2008 11:18pm

I believe that under the Regulations each case "must be considered on their individual merits"
I haven't heard or read of any other case like this in Ireland. And if it does happen, let the merits of that case be heard fairly and squarely.
I can't belive the fear people have of providing safeety for two little infants

Permabear · 27-11-2008 12:17am

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Permabear · 27-11-2008 12:20am

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Permabear · 27-11-2008 12:29am

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rkeane · 27-11-2008 1:43am

You certainly got him on that one

Permabear · 27-11-2008 3:32am

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Manic Moran · 27-11-2008 5:31am

Because they think it's the lesser of two evils, much like euthanasia is the lesser of two evils?

Yet it is not hard to find doctors willing to conduct abortions without a threat to the mother's life. Does that not constitute doing harm? We accept it, though, as a social norm today. Or one can just find some form of specialist who isn't a sworn practitioner.

T runner · 27-11-2008 12:06pm

Bogus implies she is deliberately trying to lie to the courts because she knows there is no danger for her or her daughters in Nigeria.

There is the probable possibility that she believes there is danger but the courts do not believe there is sufficient danger. This does not make her bogus ofcourse.

Any mother whos child has been mutilated will protect her other children from going back to the country where that practice is still taking place.

A useful way of determining someones character and genuinness is by assessing the network of people, friends and support around her. I would put far greater trust in someones character reference who actually knows her.
It doesnt of course conclusively prove that she is genuine but is a very strong indication that she is.

The courts believe this too obviously. The question for them is whether there is sufficient danger for her family in Nigeria. I dont think there is a doubt that she believes it and i dont think the court believes her to be bogus. Being refused refugee status means only the court thinks there is insufficient danger for her not that the courts believe her to be bogus or not genuine in her fear.

So Why do you think she is bogus?

Permabear · 27-11-2008 12:30pm

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Permabear · 27-11-2008 12:41pm

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djpbarry · 27-11-2008 1:24pm

You see what you did there – you’re focusing on that one statistic again. Have you compiled a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis of having a Nigerian population in Ireland? Considering the fact that Nigerians tend to be more educated than other nationalities, I’d be surprised if such an analysis revealed a net cost to the Irish state. But, even if it did, I would still not consider this valid grounds for a person to be “irate” at an entire nation of people!

I would still not consider outrage at Nigerian nationals (as a group) to be acceptable in such a scenario. Are you honestly trying to say that nationality is an accurate means of characterising people? Are Nigerians really all that different to Irish people? The fact that so many Nigerians live with Irish people (80% according to the CSO report) would suggest that they are not.

What percentage of the total Nigerian population in Ireland do these guys represent?

Are you trying to tell me that British, French and American nationals, or any other nationals for that matter, do not perpetrate crimes in this country? All the Nigerians, eh?

I actually stand corrected – the latest report from the UNHCR shows asylum applications worldwide increasing from 2006 to the present. The main country of origin of asylum seekers is Iraq:
http://www.unhcr.org/statistics/STATISTICS/48f742792.pdf

Having said that, the number of applications received in Ireland is still declining.

If your concern is welfare fraud, then why focus on asylum seekers? Surely there are other groups, Irish nationals included, who are guilty of welfare fraud? The solution is surely to reform the welfare system – that way you catch all the spongers, not just the non-Irish ones.

You see this is a problem. You’re relying on the Nigerian authorities, who are not exactly saintly (according to AI), to produce reliable evidence to support her case. If the Nigerian authorities were so reliable, it is unlikely that there would be so many Nigerian asylum seekers.

Permabear · 27-11-2008 2:11pm

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Permabear · 27-11-2008 2:18pm

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Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

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