Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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I don't think you understand cultural norms if you think its really a choice.
95% (guess) of members of religions in Ireland bring their kids up in that religion. Were supposed to be enlightened but the one factor in our unbalanced "choice" is what our tribe does.

But what about parents who don't wish this to happen to their daughters? What about daughters who are placed under the protection of the Nigerian police and courts? What happens to those girls?
.....
Do you have an instance where someone has sought state protection and been refused it, or found it lacking? If not, how do you know that state protections are not adequate?

"Legal Status: Ref.
There is no federal laws banning FGM/FGC in Nigeria. Opponents of this practice rely on Section 34(1)(a) of the 1999 Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria that states, "no person shall be subjected to torture or inhuman or degrading treatment," as the basis for banning the practice nationwide.

Protection:
We are unaware of any support groups to protect an unwilling woman or girl against this practice.
Prepared by the Office of the Senior Coordinator for International Women's Issues, Office of the Under Secretary for Global Affairs, U.S. Department of State, June 2001"

Therefore, in reality there is no State protection. It is not possible to place people under the protection of Nigerian police or courts.

What happens to those girls?

In the extremely rare case that their Mother might have a few quid she may be able to take them out of the country to a "liberal western democracy".

Conversely, if most FGM procedures are performed as familial rituals, with the consent of parents, how is the state supposed to fight the practice? Do the authorities cruise around town, busting down doors every time they hear a two-year-old girl crying?

With the consent of the parents it is extremely difficult to stop it. Without parental consent it is equally difficult as there arent "any support groups to protect an unwilling woman or girl against this practice."

You seem to be suggesting that until Nigeria proves definitively that such state protections exist, any mother who arrives in Ireland, daughter(s) in tow, and professing a fear of FGM, should automatically be granted asylum. Is that what you believe?

Ive explained this twice in my last post so I wont be explaining it again.

I am suggesting nothing of the kind.
I am suggesting that the reason of "adequate state protections" in Nigeria is being used by the courts] to refute her case for asylum.

If it is shown that there are inadequate state protections she still has to prove the liklihood of persecution.

A hypothetical example. A Russian female seeking asylum here from Russia due to fear of FGM could successfully argue that there are inadequate state protections against FGM in Russia. This would unlikely be enough to grant her asylum.

I feel that the courts are using the blanket rule of "state protections are adequate in Nigeria" to refute her case. Thus the importance of the disputed statistical evidence the courts are using to show reduced cases of FGM in Nigeria.

But the case doesn't hinge on statistical likelihood. It hinges on Pamela Izevbekhai's claim that her daughters have a well-founded risk of being subjected to FGM—against the wishes of their parents, the Nigerian police, and the Nigerian courts—if they are returned to their homeland.

If the courts are using this disputed statistical evidence to prove that "state protections are adequate" which would mean unliklihood of persecution looking forward, then unfortunately yes, it looks like this case does hinge on statistical liklihood.

Can you show me how this is well-founded? Where are the gangs of thugs roaming the streets, looking for infant girls to mutilate?

"Reports of kidnapping and forced FGM and response by authorities

The Project Coordinator of Women's Rights Watch Nigeria also indicated in her correspondence that kidnapping and forced FGM occurs in Nigeria (24 Aug. 2006). The Project Coordinator stated that

Among the Urhobo Tribe of Delta State, the women are not notified of the date of [their] circumcision. They are kidnapped and forcefully circumcised during pregnancy. The authorities have done nothing and only pay lip service to the prevention of FGM. Even though some states have passed a law making FGM a crime, there has been no prosecution and FGM is still practised daily in Nigeria. (24 Aug. 2006)

I gave a link to this in my last post :-(

T runner

dodgyme wrote: »

Instead of trying to throw the discussion round in circles, what is your opinion mate? you still havent provided it? What do you think? I dont need evidence or a sworn affidaviff or I wont ask how you formed the opinion etc etc? What is your opinion?

I think the poster has given his opinions on different aspects on numerous occasions. Why dont you read some of the thread so we dont have to keep repeating ourselves?

From: ismisecathy

And Pamela did see her children's attempted kidnap and did see her husband beat up by the kidnappers. What gives your experience any more weight than hers?

Good point! A pity he was unable to answer you!

T runner

rkeane wrote: »

yeah but isn't that why we get visa's for the countries we emigrate to .....oh I forgot, Pamela had a multi-entry visa for the UK.

So what? Not a problem according to the Irish Courts.

Mr. Presentable

She should be deported. To the UK.

I experienced first hand a plane full of Eastern Europeans being forwarded on rushed visas from the UK to Ireland. By European law an asylum seeker must seek refuge in the EU country they first arrive in and are not permitted to continue to another member state.

djpbarry

nipplenuts wrote: »

By European law an asylum seeker must seek refuge in the EU country they first arrive in...

:rolleyes:

blackiebest

nipplenuts wrote: »

She should be deported. To the UK.

I experienced first hand a plane full of Eastern Europeans being forwarded on rushed visas from the UK to Ireland. By European law an asylum seeker must seek refuge in the EU country they first arrive in and are not permitted to continue to another member state.

FFS, Which Eastern European country are you talking about??? Forwarded by who??? This is a b**lsh*t comment as are many others here.

Dodgy, many of us have spent extended periods in Africa and other places across the globe. In fact most, of my generation, have probably spent time illegally in various countries trying to maintain gainfull employment. The simple fact is that on the most basic level of all, people who have encountered Pamela will wish for her to be allowed to stay in Ireland as she is a fantastic woman who has two beautiful daughters who know no other life than in Sligo, she is a worthy recipient of 'status' to live here. You all can, some much better than others, argue the law and express your desires to keep Ireland for the Irish, however some of the comments on here are steeped in ignorance.

Pamela will be allowed to stay because that is the right decision, in her case. People like Pamela are needed in our Country to help slowly disperse the pre-conceptions of the largely racist society to which we belong.

Permabear

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T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Youve missed the point. The major factor in the decision is which tribe (culture) the parent belongs to. It is not an enlightened decision it is cultural. Catholics will have catholic children. Presbyterians will have presbytarian children, muslims will have muslim children. There is no enlightened choice or any other kind of choice here.

Regardless, taking your daughter to church is hardly the same thing as taking a razor blade to her vulva, is it?

They are both cultural norms, so the decision process of both parents would be similar. (BTW the parent does not take a razorblade to their daughters vulva as you implied.)
The local culture tells the parents that FGM is holy and beneficial to the child.
And so it takes place and the parent will believe they're doing right by their child.

Incidently FGM was carried out in late 19th century England to prostitutes in an effort to stop promiscuity.

Some of our own present day cultures may seem barbaric in future years. An example, might be taking your child for their first drink. (This may well lead them to an unhappy life or a premature death). This is still culturally acceptable here. This is seen as a cultural right of passage. However, If a parent experienced losing someone to alcohol they may think twice about introducing their child to it.
Same with FGM. The parents who object usually have experience of its dangers by either losing someone or by realising they were witnessing torture after someone was hurt.

The state has said that "relocation and state protection" should be adequate. And if you look at the geography of female genital mutilation in Nigeria, as shown in this PDF document, you'll see that the frequency varies greatly by area. In particular, there is a huge difference between the north and south of the country—note that the prevalence of FGM in northwestern Nigeria is stated as 0.4 percent, compared to 56.9 percent in the southwest of the country. Why can't Pamela Izevbekhai just move with her daughters to a region such as northwestern Nigeria? And request state protection there?

There IS NO state protection against FGM in Nigeria before it occurs NONE.
Pamela Izenbeaia has already moved her family away from the people who are demanding that FGM be performed on her children.
Her family were followed by relatives of her husbands who tried to kidnap her daughter. There is therefore nowhere in Nigeria that is safe for them.
If they kidnapped her and arranged FGM to be performed at best the perpetrators might receive imprisonment or a fine. More often than not, nothing.
I would argue therefore that the prevalence of FGM in the tribe of the individuals concerned is all important. It will be the people of their tribe who circumcise the children. The stats of the particular province they are currently living in wont save them.
You should be looking at statistics for a particular tribe and not for a particular provence.

More specifically, it is being used by counsel for the state. But what studies or statistics are they relying on? How do you know they are not accurate?

I dont know the specific stat that was used by the refugee commisioners. I know that Nigerias state protections are not worth the paper they are written on. I have not seen any statistics that show of a reduction in FGM due to state intervention in Nigeria.

I have provided as much evidence(previously) as I am willing to on this. If you feel the state protections are adequate then please show us some examples to prove this. I have given more than enough to show they are not. Time for you to dig.

I think the state's point is that Izevbekhai has not been able to substantiate her allegation that a well-founded risk exists. Will you not accept that there are many parents—especially in certain regions of Nigeria—who do not wish FGM to be performed on their daughters? That their decisions are both culturally normative and respected? And that the random mutilating of girls does not go on?

Possibly I might only accept that random mutilating of girls does not occur. All girls are culturally bound to have FGM in tribes where it is part of the culture.
This includes the Izenbaia children.

Yes, you linked to this project coordinator's statement that the Urhobo Tribe of Delta State has a "tradition" of kidnapping pregnant women and performing FGM on them. Nobody denies that this is an indefensibly reprehensible thing to do. But Pamela Izevbekhai does not belong to the Urhobo Tribe. She has never lived in Delta State—which is in the south-west of the country, where FGM is most prevalent. And her daughters are not pregnant women. So I don't see the relevance of quoting the above.

You asked me to show you evidence that, In Nigeria, kidnapping did take place for children of non consenting parents. So you tell me the relevance. I answered your question, after all.

Mr. Presentable

blackiebest wrote: »

FFS, Which Eastern European country are you talking about??? Forwarded by who??? This is a b**lsh*t comment as are many others here.

.

My belief at the time was that they were Russians. Forwarded by the British. Just because you say it is BS doesn't make it so. One of us was there - and it wasn't you!

Permabear

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T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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The police dont get involved in FGM disputes in Nigeria.
They are treated like "domestics" used to be over here (and still are)

Pamela Izevbekhai has stated that she formerly worked as a banking executive in Lagos. She has never mentioned belonging to a tribe.

OK. The word "Tribe" may be unfair to Nigerians, although on her site she says she came from a different "Tribal tradition" to her husband. We can call it an ethnic group instead?
She has never had FGM as it is not a tradition of her ethnic group.
I was not talking about a threat to her, rather her children.

What I'm trying to impress upon you is that the number of girls who are kidnapped and genitally mutilated against the wishes of their parents is extremely small.

I dont believe this for a second. Have you any references for this?

Most FGM procedures happen because the parents want it done

Incorrect. Most FGM procedures happen because the culture of the particular ethnic group dictates it. The same as most Catholics baptise their children because thats what Catholics due, most muslims bring their kids up as muslims, jews as jews etc. etc.
There is no choice in these religious type customs.
If a catholic has a child I can guess with almost 100% certainty that they will "choose" to baptise their child. If the outcome is guaranteed where is the choice?

And it's really hard to police something that is domestic, underground, and practiced on infant children by consenting parents.

This is true and the police dont even try.

However, there is no possibility of a parent who doesnt want FGM on their child, to have that child taken into protective custody by courts or police. There is no protection offered, the laws only claim to punish the perpetrators after the event.

The fact that Izevbekhai and her husband do not want this procedure performed should be enough. If not, there are parts of Nigeria where FGM is virtually unknown—and there's nothing to stop Pamela Izevbekhai moving to live there.

They have tried that and her inlaws followed her. Her inlaws believe that if their daughters are not circumcised they are lower in their view than prostitutes. They are unholy, unclean, cannot marry and cannot bear clean, holy children. Moving the children will not take then out of the ethnic traditions that they were born into. The obligations will still be on the inlaws to ensure FGM happens to the girls.

This is their Ethnic tradition and unfortunately the Izenbeyai girls are part of that Ethnic group.

But the Izevbekhai children are not part of any tribe, so they are not bound by tribal traditions.

They are part of an ethnic group and are bound by the cultural traditions of that ethnic group, one of which is FGM.

You gave me an example of one tribe in one state in southwestern Nigeria that performs ritual kidnappings and genital mutilations on pregnant women. The Izevbekhai girls do not belong to that tribe, do not live in that state, and are (obviously) not pregnant women. So where is the danger?

No. I gave you an example of someone who believed that Kidnapping and forced FGM occurs in Nigeria. She used an example to demonstrate this.
"The Project Coordinator of Women's Rights Watch Nigeria also indicated in her correspondence that kidnapping and forced FGM occurs in Nigeria"

You dont get the significance of the pregnant women obviously.
Many ethnic groups that perform FGM believe that a woman from their group without FGM will bear unclean children. If the female has not had FGM, then every effort will be made to grab her when she is pregnant.

Permabear

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oscarBravo

nipplenuts wrote: »

By European law an asylum seeker must seek refuge in the EU country they first arrive in and are not permitted to continue to another member state.

Infracted and banned, per policy.

dodgyme

blackiebest wrote: »

Dodgy, many of us have spent extended periods in Africa and other places across the globe. In fact most, of my generation, have probably spent time illegally in various countries trying to maintain gainfull employment. .

how much time have you spent in nigeria?

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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That is not true. I have previously quoted referenced statistics to show that the prevalence was around 60%. The prevalence varies from ethnic group to ethnic group. If you want the reference for that figure read my previous posts.

Well, it's just logical. If only 0.4 percent of girls are being circumcised in certain areas of the country, and if even one in ten of those girls is being kidnapped and forcibly mutliated, then the number of girls affected is about 0.04 percent.

If the rate of FGM is 60% in Nigeria then your calculations are way off for the number of people who have FGM performed against their will. By your calculations 6% of female population. (7 million?) Seems large, maybe 1 in 50 is more like it.

Fair enough. But there are many other cultures within Nigeria that do not dictate it. Izevbekhai herself belongs to a non-FGM-practicing culture, as you noted. So why not raise her children in that culture?

Her first child was raised to the customs of her father. (Thus the death of Elizabeth) She is trying to have her other children subjected to FGM. I am unaware of how many of the other religious customs they observe.

Yes. And I don't hear much about Jews kidnapping infant Catholic boys and forcibly circumcising them, do you?

No but you do hear of people being kidnapped in Nigeria and having FGM forced on them.

So what happens when a Catholic has a child with a Protestant, or a Muslim has a child with a Buddhist? Izevbekhai and her husband are from different cultural backgrounds, as you note.

Looks like the culture of the father was taken.



How do you know?

I have a gripe with you here as yet again I have previously answered this with reference. I wouldnt be repeating points Ive already made again.

"Legal Status: Ref.
There is no federal laws banning FGM/FGC in Nigeria. Opponents of this practice rely on Section 34(1)(a) of the 1999 Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria that states, "no person shall be subjected to torture or inhuman or degrading treatment," as the basis for banning the practice nationwide.

Protection:
We are unaware of any support groups to protect an unwilling woman or girl against this practice.
Prepared by the Office of the Senior Coordinator for International Women's Issues, Office of the Under Secretary for Global Affairs, U.S. Department of State, June 2001"

The Laws in the states where it is illegal only prosecute after the event. No pre-emptive protection. I have linked to this previously so please look it up.

Can you show us any instance where the courts/police have protected someone in Nigeria from FGM?

If you cant then surely you have to conclude that state protections are inadequate?

Yes, she stated that it occurs as a tradition in the one tribe she referenced. How do you generalise outwards from that to it occurring all over the country?

The Project Coordinator of Women's Rights Watch Nigeria also indicated in her correspondence that kidnapping and forced FGM occurs in Nigeria

She generalised, not me.

Permabear

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Permabear

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T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

My calculations were merely a hypothesis. My basic point is that when FGM is performed on infant girls, it is ordinarily with the consent of their parents. I'm not saying that parents have a right to mutilate their daughters' vulvae—but they do ask to have it done. I don't have any statistics on how many girls are mutilated against the wishes of their parents—but neither do you.

Yes, but they are following cultural and religious norms they are not choosing.
But I have shown that kidnapping and forced FGM occurs.

Well, you also hear about people in Ireland winning the Lotto. But just because you hear about something doesn't mean that it is widespread.

The lottery is a completely random event. You increase your chances of kidnapping and forced FGM by deciding not to have FGM on your child.

Yes, but this document you keep citing is 7 years old, and is contradicted by other, more recent, studies.

Then why dont you reference them?

No. Can you show any instance where someone requested protection from the courts or police and it was refused?

No, because I have shown by reference that there IS NO pre-emptive protection against FGM provided by the courts, police or anyone else.
So I can reason that anyone who did apply would be turned down as the courts and police do not have the authority to protect people from FGM before the event: only to prosecute after the torture has taken place.

If you have a newer reference that disproves mine then lets see it.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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You'd probably have to hear full statement to have it in understandeable context. Probably a bit unfair too to pick over and judge her every statement. She obviously is under severe stress as you would be. Nobody's perfect.

blackiebest

dodgyme wrote: »

how much time have you spent in nigeria?

About 3 hours, to collect a connection flight. I have however spent over two years in Mozambique, two months in Angola, and worked/traveled in many other southern Africian countries.

The point of your question is what?

Permabear

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dodgyme

blackiebest wrote: »

About 3 hours, to collect a connection flight. I have however spent over two years in Mozambique, two months in Angola, and worked/traveled in many other southern Africian countries.

The point of your question is what?

Ok so you have no experience of nigeria?

Permabear

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blackiebest

dodgyme wrote: »

That kinda emotional infused article is the reason it has taken this sh*thole country so long to smell the roses and cost us multi-millions in rent and allowances etc. The rte report on the civic reception in sligo for Pam et al was also a tear jerker. Not trying to get involved in the specifics of this case (I havent read that much about it), I spent alot of time in nigeria between 2000 and 2003 when the streams of people were outside the offices in town from nigeria looking for asylum and I can tell you (from my experience) we were being completely taken for a ride and the amount of stupid g*b****e dogooders are the reason we are still in this mess. I have posted on this stuff before (and try not too anymore) as have others who have spent time in nigeria and no matter how you try to translate the negative ethnographical experience from being there, the plonkers just block there ears.

I take it you do not have a very high opinion of the people in those Nigerian queues you witnessed between 2000 and 2003. I guess I would also be in the 'stupid g*b****e dogooder' bracket you refer to. You see Dodgy, I dont believe that you or anyone else have the authority to cast judgement on any of those people either in the queues in Lagos or for that matter in Dublin outside the American Embassy in the 80's lining up for 'holiday' visas, maybe you were around for that or was that before your time?

To cast judgement in such a broad way over a group of people is wrong and you know it. But for the grace of geography and fortune of timing you could have been a starving pesant, an economic (illegal) migrant, a child slave worker etc. And all those things in this great country of ours over the last 160 years or so.

Pamela is not taking this country for a ride as you wish to believe. She wants to remain here for the benefit of her kids and herself. She receives €19.00 per week from our Government, however she could, at this stage access probably any required money she needs as there are so many people whom she has won their respect and loyalty that will happily put on the table whatever it takes to show Pamela that the Irish, as a nation have humanity and compassion, maybe you could have a look for yours.

Do not insult yourself further by banging on about the fact that Nigeria had the honour of your presence for whatever period of time it was. It means nothing and sounds, to me at least, like an immature brag.

sovtek

donegalfella wrote: »

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Again I feel the need to point out the severe hypocrasy and willful ignorance in any Irish person that bitches about foriegnors coming to their country for whatever reason.
If you want to bitch about wasting taxpayers money why dont you have a look for some stats on how much it's cost the taxpayer for the government to fight the granting of residency to non-eu nationals married to an EU national unless they gained it in another state first in the High Court and EU court. Then come back and continue to rabidly seek the deportation of this woman who has obviously suffered enough.

dodgyme

blackiebest wrote: »

I take it you do not have a very high opinion of the people in those Nigerian queues you witnessed between 2000 and 2003. I guess I would also be in the 'stupid g*b****e dogooder' bracket you refer to. You see Dodgy, I dont believe that you or anyone else have the authority to cast judgement on any of those people either in the queues in Lagos or for that matter in Dublin outside the American Embassy in the 80's lining up for 'holiday' visas, maybe you were around for that or was that before your time?

To cast judgement in such a broad way over a group of people is wrong and you know it. But for the grace of geography and fortune of timing you could have been a starving pesant, an economic (illegal) migrant, a child slave worker etc. And all those things in this great country of ours over the last 160 years or so.

Pamela is not taking this country for a ride as you wish to believe. She wants to remain here for the benefit of her kids and herself. She receives €19.00 per week from our Government, however she could, at this stage access probably any required money she needs as there are so many people whom she has won their respect and loyalty that will happily put on the table whatever it takes to show Pamela that the Irish, as a nation have humanity and compassion, maybe you could have a look for yours.

Do not insult yourself further by banging on about the fact that Nigeria had the honour of your presence for whatever period of time it was. It means nothing and sounds, to me at least, like an immature brag.

Most of what you said there is just your made up rubbish. Simply accuse me of loads of things and off you go. But your innocence on the nigerian asylum scam is blatant. Weaving in the irish emigrant card, US embassey, nigeria apparently honoured with my presence ..what are you on about???...etc etc binded with the grace of god statements and starving peasants. Are these the same starving peasants that mange to organise to travel from lagos through various countries to little old ireland and honour us with their presence, which is paid for in hard cash. They are on 707's and not coffin ships, its organised and calculated. Wake up and smell the roses. Your opinion is part of the basis for the reason we are forking out so much money on this whole process.

sovtek

dodgyme wrote: »

Are these the same starving peasants that mange to organise to travel from lagos through various countries to little old ireland and honour us with their presence, which is paid for in hard cash. They are on 707's and not coffin ships, its organised and calculated. Wake up and smell the roses. Your opinion are the basis for the reason we are forking out so much money on this whole process.

Your opinion is basis for the reason "we" are forking out so much money on this process because your government's handling of this situation seems to mirror your own.
I can tell you that I know of people from SA that the whole family (and even some of their neighbors) worked to provide one person with the means to leave there as well as themselves working several **** jobs to do so.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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I thought we had got past the personal attacks on Pamela Izevbekhai......Obviously not.

She has been most gracious in her thanks to the people of Sligo and Ireland who have helped her on many occasions. For all you know, she may even have thanked them in that interview.

blackiebest

donegalfella wrote: »

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Donegal,

While i disagree completely with your opinions I enjoy your posts and respect your stand. However in the above you are very much misrepresenting Pamela by using selective quotes. I know and you should accept that she is grateful for all she receives in our country and it is unfair to be so petty. She has earned her audience in front of the Seanad and the Dail and yesterday won the support of the Fine Gael party. Do you think all the people who support her have been suckers or do you think she has impressed upon them her qualities?

dodgyme

sovtek wrote: »

I can tell you that I know of people from SA .

other end of the continent? Worked there and met lots of people there, alot of people working in Joburg that had to leave mugabes lovely oasis. Doubt they had the time or cash to take a nice aslyum flight to little ireland. Funny they never even really mentioned Ireland atall.