Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

Permabear

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T runner

You seemed to be highlighting the parents role in FGM:

The justifications for the practice are deeply inscribed in the belief systems of those cultural groups that practice it. Custom and tradition are the main justifications given for the practice, and FGM is often carried out as part of an initiation into adulthood. It is considered an essential part of social cohesion.
FGM is not an act of hate. It is carried out on children because their parents believe it is in their best interest. In the patriarchal communities where FGM takes place, marriage is necessary for a woman’s honour and survival. An uncircumcised woman will stand very little chance of marriage and will not be accepted by her community. In these communities FGM is carried out to safeguard the chastity of a woman before marriage. FGM is used as a means of controlling and de-sexualising women and repressing sexual desire, thus reducing the chance of sexual promiscuity in marriage on the part of the woman. FGM is also carried out for reasons of aesthetics and hygiene. The practice is often carried out as a means of purification and ensuring that a woman is clean.

FGM and Human Rights:

Dorkenoo (1995) states that FGM ‘represents one of the most extreme ways in which women are subordinated by men, and it is sufficiently horrifying to make men and women question practices which women endure in the name of
culture and tradition’.12 FGM is a clear manifestation of a gender-based human rights violation which aims to control women’s sexuality and autonomy. FGM has internationally been recognised as a form of torture and violence against women. However, most governments in countries where FGM is practised have done little to put an end to it. Although the prohibition of torture has long been enshrined in international law, FGM has only recently been written into the international human rights agenda.


I think this shows it as it is male violence against women. The parents are unaware of it at this level.

donegalfella wrote: »

T runner wrote: »

But cultural norms, by definition, are not chosen...?

Yes they are followed as I have said.

Again, this is purely speculative on your part. Honestly. The only reference you've managed to find to kidnapping and forced genital mutilation is in one tribe in one state in southwestern Nigeria, where it is a tradition to perform it on pregnant women.

No. I have a reference from a Care Worker in Nigeria accepted by Canadian authorities who stated that Forced FGM occured in Nigeria. There was the case of the pastor in Cameroon who was murdered after 2 young girls died after forced FGM. (only reported due to death of pastor)
This Report from the BBC:

"At least 300 girls in south-western Kenya have fled from home and sought refuge in churches in a bid to escape forced female genital mutilation (FGM)."

And this one from advance Africa

Eliminating Female Genital Mutilation in Africa
Our Masai Volunteer Program is aimed at eliminating female genital mutilation in Africa.
Volunteers work in a rescue centre which accommodates Masai women and Masai girls rescued from forced marriages and those rescued from forced Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) practices.

These examples show that where you have FGM you will also have forced FGM when people refuse to subject your children to it.

I already have!

You have provided no evidence to show that Nigerian Police, Courts even NGOs supply preventative measures against FGM. And you cant because ther are none!

This is why the Courts are reduced to using dodgy stats about FGM in NIgeria to "prove" Nigerias "state" protections are adequate when in actual fact there are none! There are only penalties after the torture is done and these are only paid lip service to. Again if you have references to show this is not through please show us. (You wont because you cant)

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Come on!!!! She made those comments to get extra presents for her kids?
Maybe drop this one......

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Permabear

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blackiebest

Donegal,

Her kids are in school in Sligo for most of their lives now. They are as normal and accepted as any other kids in the school except for the fact that they, at this moment in time, have no idea where they will be in a day, week or month. We are now in Christmas and that is special for all children accustomed to living in Ireland. The point I think Pamela was trying to make is that it is a very traumatic time to be living day to day and the reality is that she can not plan to be in Sligo for either Christmas day or her daughters birthday as she could at any time be deported. That is hard for any mother to explain to her very 'Irish' daughters. I really am fascinated that you can associate scrounging presents with the reality that is hers. The only present she wants for her daughters is to be allowed to continue to live where their friends are, continue to go to school where they have done from day one.

As I said before I enjoy reading your posts in the main, and have learned much from your info which is well articulated, but to lower your argument to such a level is, IMO, discrediting your whole argument.

Really no offence intended, just honest observation.

Permabear

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lego

sovtek wrote: »

Again I feel the need to point out the severe hypocrasy and willful ignorance in any Irish person that bitches about foriegnors coming to their country for whatever reason.
If you want to bitch about wasting taxpayers money why dont you have a look for some stats on how much it's cost the taxpayer for the government to fight the granting of residency to non-eu nationals married to an EU national unless they gained it in another state first in the High Court and EU court. Then come back and continue to rabidly seek the deportation of this woman who has obviously suffered enough.

I don't know if its the majority, but many of the EU treaty rights applications are based on fake marriages.

The loophole is being taken advantage of mainly by Pakistani, Mauritian, Indian and Bangladeshi men claiming residency on the basis of bogus marriages to EU nationals (Mainly northeastern european women looking for an easy €5,000-€10,000).

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nonirish-using-fake-marriages-in-bid-to-secure-legal-residency-1074793.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/836410000-bogus-marriage-offer-for-latvian-girls-1372358.html

lego

blackiebest wrote: »

That is hard for any mother to explain to her very 'Irish' daughters.

They're NOT Irish.

Victor McDade

GuanYin wrote: »

Grown ups are talking here.

[modhat]
Please elaborate on "our own problems" - I think you'e trolling

I want to see some sort of intelligent commentary to prove me wrong.

I did expect a HTT to kick up over my comment.

We're seen as a soft touch for these type of people.

What would we be entitled to if we were in her position in her country???

blackiebest

lego wrote: »

They're NOT Irish.

Thats why I used ' '. But here's hoping that their pretty little faces will soon be on gleaming new Irish passports

blackiebest

savemejebas wrote: »

I did expect a HTT to kick up over my comment.

We're seen as a soft touch for these type of people.

What would we be entitled to if we were in her position in her country???

This is the bit that makes me feel ashamed to be Irish, wow what planet are you from? Would you please go back there.

Permabear

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lego

blackiebest wrote: »

Thats why I used ' '. But here's hoping that their pretty little faces will soon be on gleaming new Irish passports

Just like the IBC scammers.

They know they are scammers, they know that 79% of Irelands population don't want them in Ireland, but they stay anyway.

Victor McDade

blackiebest wrote: »

This is the bit that makes me feel ashamed to be Irish, wow what planet are you from? Would you please go back there.

Why not answer my question and not just insult me because you disagree with my opinion?

blackiebest

donegalfella wrote: »

Well the reality is that her judicial review challenge for "subsidiary protection" has been adjourned until January 12th, which means that she will be in Ireland at least until that time.

Was not aware that it was definite she was here till Jan 12th and for sure there will be a party for her kid but I just think that the media ask her questions, she answers them as she sees/feels it and then we have the liberty of interpreting what she meant. Well I think she was not trawling for public sympathy, she was expressing how she felt. You know she was not scrounging presents for her kids, she has been through a lot and it is so easy to be mis-understood.

I really think it is offside having a pop at her personality, i know her and she is not the person represented in those few posts of yours. I accept your opinions that she should not be granted leave to remain but you are so wrong to cast her in such a negative light based on selected quotes.

blackiebest

lego wrote: »

Just like the IBC scammers.

They know they are scammers, they know that 79% of Irelands population don't want them in Ireland, but they stay anyway.

Genuine question, what are IBC ?

HollyB

blackiebest wrote: »

Genuine question, what are IBC ?

Irish Born Children.

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lego

blackiebest wrote: »

Genuine question, what are IBC ?

"Irish Born Child", a child born (of non-Irish parents) within the geographical jurisdiction of the Irish state. Their parents were usually illegal immigrants (Usually travelling to the Republic via the border with Northern Ireland near Dundalk, or via a port). Their plan was to exploit a loophole in the Irish Constitution which granted their child Irish Citizenship. The Irish state was going to deport the illegal immigrant parents (obviously the children would have to go with them). A load of court cases ensued and all the illegal immigrants were allowed to stay because of the IBC loophole.

Alot of the time the women would be heavily pregnant when they arrived in the state.
Many of them used the asylum process to stall for time knowing full well that their asylum application would be rejected. This was to allow time to give birth to an "Irish Born Child".

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/deportation-is-the-answer-1458509.html

Examples:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-welfare-cheaters-who-tried-to-beat-the-system-62263.html

The loophole was closed by 79% of Ireland's electorate in the Citizenship referendum, but the IBC scammers who got into Ireland before we amended our constitution have remained.

blackiebest

lego wrote: »

"Irish Born Child", a child born (of non-Irish parents) within the geographical jurisdiction of the Irish state. Their parents were usually illegal immigrants (Usually travelling to the Republic via the border with Northern Ireland near Dundalk, or via a port). Their plan was to exploit a loophole in the Irish Constitution which granted their child Irish Citizenship. The Irish state was going to deport the illegal immigrant parents (obviously the children would have to go with them). A load of court cases ensued and all the illegal immigrants were allowed to stay because of the IBC loophole.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/deportation-is-the-answer-1458509.html

Examples:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-welfare-cheaters-who-tried-to-beat-the-system-62263.html

Cheers, I knew the story just not the abbreviation. I take your point and agree the system was not only s**te but also abused. I just don't know how you can associate it with Pamela.

Donegal,
I very much accept why you would be annoyed by what Pamela is quoted on re 'defending her reasons', I just think it was not meant to come across as arrogance. Not sure what exactly she meant there but I'll find out and let you know.

T runner

lego wrote: »

"Irish Born Child", a child born (of non-Irish parents) within the geographical jurisdiction of the Irish state. Their parents were usually illegal immigrants (Usually travelling to the Republic via the border with Northern Ireland near Dundalk, or via a port). Their plan was to exploit a loophole in the Irish Constitution which granted their child Irish Citizenship. The Irish state was going to deport the illegal immigrant parents (obviously the children would have to go with them). A load of court cases ensued and all the illegal immigrants were allowed to stay because of the IBC loophole.

Alot of the time the women would be heavily pregnant when they arrived in the state.
Many of them used the asylum process to stall for time knowing full well that their asylum application would be rejected. This was to allow time to give birth to an "Irish Born Child".

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/deportation-is-the-answer-1458509.html

Examples:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-welfare-cheaters-who-tried-to-beat-the-system-62263.html

The loophole was closed by 79% of Ireland's electorate in the Citizenship referendum, but the IBC scammers who got into Ireland before we amended our constitution have remained.

Maybe, but the children are innocent and very much Irish. What did it say in th proclomation: That we should cherish all the children of the nation equally.

AlekSmart

This is indeed a very impressive and emotive thread.
It is indeed refreshing to see such robust discussion without much rancour or namecalling...well done to the mods I should think..?

However I am somewhat perturbed by this Personality Cult which has now enveloped Ms Izevbekhai and which appears to be quite well managed and targetted.

Civic Receptions by a Mayor.
Invites into a National Parliament and meetings with senior administrators therein.

This has the look of effective PR about it.

Pamela is not taking this country for a ride as you wish to believe. She wants to remain here for the benefit of her kids and herself. She receives €19.00 per week from our Government, however she could, at this stage access probably any required money she needs as there are so many people whom she has won their respect and loyalty that will happily put on the table whatever it takes to show Pamela that the Irish, as a nation have humanity and compassion, maybe you could have a look for yours.

This assertion by blackiebest may well be true but it raises the question of just where does this level of support for Ms Izevbekhai cease to be personal and then expand into a crusade against the Institutions of State in general.

I am also minded of the fact that Nigeria as a sovereign state maintains an Embassy in Ireland which presumably entails the Irish State accepting that Nigerian political and cultural systems are sufficently benevolent to merit diplomatic recognition.

Watching the News reports of the situation in Zimbabwe however brings home to me the fact that there are other African countries and tribes suffering far more widespread (and avoidable) torture than the localized incidents of tribal FGM so well documented in these threads.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Then you really dont understand FGM or cultural male violence against women. This tradition is demanded by the male dominated culture. The person who actually carries out the task is irrelevent.

Here it is explained for you again.

Dorkenoo (1995) states that FGM ‘represents one of the most extreme ways in which women are subordinated by men, and it is sufficiently horrifying to make men and women question practices which women endure in the name of
culture and tradition’. FGM is a clear manifestation of a gender-based human rights violation which aims to control women’s sexuality and autonomy. FGM has internationally been recognised as a form of torture and violence against women. However, most governments in countries where FGM is practised have done little to put an end to it. Although the prohibition of torture has long been enshrined in international law, FGM has only recently been written into the international human rights agenda.

"At least 300 girls in south-western Kenya have fled from home and sought refuge in churches in a bid to escape forced female genital mutilation (FGM)."

This is in Kenya. But did you notice this part: "Mr Wanjama says some cases of forced circumcision had been reported to the police and legal action has been taken."

Yes, After the event and when it is too late. Like Nigeria, Kenya doesnt have preventative laws to stop FGM only punishment after torture.

Conversely, you have provided no evidence that girls are being rampantly mutilated in Nigeria against the will of their parents. You can't, either, because there are none!

I have provided evidence that kidnapping and forced FGM occurs in Nigeria.

I take it that since you didnt supply evidence that there is preventative law against FGM in Nigeria that we can accept that there is none. Only a fine and /or imprisonment after the event which is clearly not a sufficient "state Protection" against FGM. There is no recourse for a person to get protection from the Nigerian state before FGM occurs.

Permabear

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T runner

AlekSmart wrote: »

This assertion by blackiebest may well be true but it raises the question of just where does this level of support for Ms Izevbekhai cease to be personal and then expand into a crusade against the Institutions of State in general.

Can you answer this question?

I am also minded of the fact that Nigeria as a sovereign state maintains an Embassy in Ireland which presumably entails the Irish State accepting that Nigerian political and cultural systems are sufficently benevolent to merit diplomatic recognition.

A country meriting diplomatic recognition by a Western country does not mean that human rights abuses and torture are not carried out in that country.
According to the Department of Foreign Affairs on 31st October this year Ireland still believed Zimbabwe merits diplomatic recognition.

Watching the News reports of the situation in Zimbabwe however brings home to me the fact that there are other African countries and tribes suffering far more widespread (and avoidable) torture than the localized incidents of tribal FGM so well documented in these threads.

We are dealing with a request for asylum for one woman and her 2 children here. I abhor any human suffering especially that caused by other humans but I dont really see the relevance of Zimbabwe's problems to this thread.

Just to give you an idea of the prevalence of the abonimable male violence towards women that is FGM: There are 130 million women (alive) who have had this precedure inflicted on them.

Permabear

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T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Here we go again. When you you are unable to construct your arguments coherently and with substantiation you resort to making unfounded attacks against Ms Izevbekhai.

She arrived in Ireland under highly dubious circumstances, without documentation, claiming that she had transited here via the Netherlands—but the Dutch authorities find no immigration or CCTV records to show that she ever passed through that country.

The courts that you demand be the sole medium for this case have no problem with how she ended up in Ireland. Do you only agree with the courts when it suits your arguments?

Her asylum application was rejected, rejected again at appeal, and a valid deportation order was issued against her in November 2005—but Izevbekhai defied the order, went on the run, was apprehended, and spent two weeks in Mountjoy before launching a series of legal appeals that have now lasted almost three years.

And acted exactly like a genuine asylum seeker trying desperately to keep her daughters from torture. Oh yes, I forgot weve been through this before havent we. The last time you said a genuine asylum seeker would not act this way. You implied that you would hand your children over to torture and possible death without trying everything you could to save them, because it was the right thing to do.

And yet Izevbekhai now seems so convinced that she has won the hearts and minds of the Irish people that she complains in the national media about having to go through a legal process at all. In her mind, she should not have to defend her reasons for coming to Ireland.

Not true you are misrepresenting her. She has never before made this claim.
If I may say so, cherry picking a few sentences from a very stressed woman
from an interview you are only getting snippets of is quite weak.

You have constantly objected to emotive arguments being made in her favour but you dont seem to mind making them against her. (Shes wasting our taxpayers money and shows no thanks; if we let her in it'll open the floodgates etc etc)

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blackiebest

Donegal,
you sure Pamela is definite to be here through Christmas as you stated? I read back and note the report (and your post) state 'could be spending Christmas', might explain her worries about making festive/birthday plans.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/family-get-christmas-reprieve-in-battle-for-asylum-1577555.html

Permabear

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