Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dodgyme

or you could check out his Roddys great version of playboy of the western world if your bored.

ParkRunner

As seen on http://www.letthemstay.org/

Eke Agbai former Govt. Minister. "...There's discussion going on in families as to accept or to say to not take place. But the problem then at family level is that why do the family not agree to it but the family is still under the control of the village head. So if I say for example can't do that, I run the risk of the village coming against me to hurt me, because I said this cannot happen to me, so what I have to do is I have to relocate, to run away." Nothing about fleeing the country seeking asylum elsewhere.

The biggest misrepresentation came at the very end though.."The Irish authorities are continually postponing a decision on their application for asylum"..This has been decided a long time ago. She would have been deported years ago only she broke immigration law and evaded deportation.

blackiebest

dodgyme wrote: »

or you could check out his Roddys great version of playboy of the western world if your bored.

Constructive contribution as always Dodgy, please tell us again about your time in Nigeria and what those Nigerians were up to.

Big_Mac

EF wrote: »

As seen on http://www.letthemstay.org/

Eke Agbai former Govt. Minister. "...There's discussion going on in families as to accept or to say to not take place. But the problem then at family level is that why do the family not agree to it but the family is still under the control of the village head. So if I say for example can't do that, I run the risk of the village coming against me to hurt me, because I said this cannot happen to me, so what I have to do is I have to relocate, to run away." Nothing about fleeing the country seeking asylum elsewhere.

The biggest misrepresentation came at the very end though.."The Irish authorities are continually postponing a decision on their application for asylum"..This has been decided a long time ago. She would have been deported years ago only she broke immigration law and evaded deportation.

Sensationalist and emotive tripe, aimed at trying to rally support by guilt trips or playing the sympathy card.

The biggest misrepresentation came at the very end though.."The Irish authorities are continually postponing a decision on their application for asylum"..This has been decided a long time ago. She would have been deported years ago only she broke immigration law and evaded deportation.

Case and point

blackiebest

Big_Mac wrote: »

Sensationalist and emotive tripe, aimed at trying to rally support by guilt trips or playing the sympathy card.


Case and point

And I understand you see this in the way you do. Some people, like me, see the very real but alien practice of cutting the clitroris from a young girl as wrong, regardless of culture. That it might happen to two young girls, who only know Ireland and Sligo as their home and who are as home here my own girl, is reason enough for me to feel that she should be allowed to stay. 3 beers on board so sorry if a little inarticulate.

hedgeh0g

I cant bear the “let them stay” argument anymore and will unsubscribe after this post.

Will someone please PM me the good news when this big guilt trip is over.

Assuming that the average person pays 100K of tax in a life time in Ireland, how many Irish tax payers entire life’s tax contributions have been squandered to date? How much by the time she hits the ground on the other side of the world?

If she were to stay, how many thousand will arrive in little boats to our shores looking to be helped as well?

mikemac

This still going on?

The big winners in this case are the lawyers and the big losers are the taxpayers

opo

blackiebest wrote: »

And I understand you see this in the way you do. Some people, like me, see the very real but alien practice of cutting the clitroris from a young girl as wrong, regardless of culture. That it might happen to two young girls, who only know Ireland and Sligo as their home and who are as home here my own girl, is reason enough for me to feel that she should be allowed to stay. 3 beers on board so sorry if a little inarticulate.

Would it be fair to say that you believe that FGM - on a global scale - is Irelands problem to solve and protect against rather than those countries where it is prevalent?

And why?

DeVore

Eh... 100k in a lifetime? Um.... I dont think you pay tax at all do you?

DeV.

GuanYin

AlanG wrote: »

Irish people went to America and Australia etc. but never got social welfare, medical support or legal aid and were thrown out if they were caught and found to have entered illegally.

They didn't pay taxes either, but still benefited from all the government paid amenities.

So they still "owe" the system.

Izevbekhai is in Ireland LEGALLY and engaging in a system that she is entitled to use.

There is absolutely no comparison to the illegal Irish immigrants that went to other countries, disregarded their laws and benefited from their systems while contributing nothing to the state upkeep.

opo

GuanYin wrote: »

They didn't pay taxes either, but still benefited from all the government paid amenities.

So they still "owe" the system.

Izevbekhai is in Ireland LEGALLY and engaging in a system that she is entitled to use.

There is absolutely no comparison to the illegal Irish immigrants that went to other countries, disregarded their laws and benefited from their systems while contributing nothing to the state upkeep.

Out of curiousity, as a former and future visitor to the US, would you please let me know how to exist tax free. I am genuinely interested. Also - what "government paid amenities" are available gratis?

Can I live on them for years on end?

GuanYin wrote: »

There is absolutely no comparison to the illegal Irish immigrants that went to other countries, disregarded their laws and benefited from their systems while contributing nothing to the state upkeep.

Really?

Can you give examples where the Irish did exactly that (preferably in their thousands - just to be fair)?

GuanYin

opo wrote: »

Out of curiousity, as a former and future visitor to the US, would you please let me know how to exist tax free. I am genuinely interested. Also - what "government paid amenities" are available gratis?

State and Federal taxes on their pay. Money goes to schools, public hospitals, police, fire and emergency services, roads, public transport....

We all pay for these with or state and federal withholdings, illegal immigrants do not.

Can I live on them for years on end?

If you evade detection and are paid off the books, then yes.

Can you give examples where the Irish did exactly that (preferably in their thousands - just to be fair)?

Let us not be naive. There are thousands of undocumented Irish in the US right now (along with other nationalities). They have no work permit, no social security records, they are paid off the books and they don't pay taxes.

Your own media, estimates 25,000 illegal irish. http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1210/immigration.html

That would be about 150 million in unpaid taxes every year.

To claim these people don't get social welfare (even the ones on Visas aren't entitled to social welfare), medical support etc when the DO get all the above stuff.... a joke.

Now, my point is. PI, has made her self known to the state. She is legally entitled to be there until her case is resolved.

Paddy Samurai

speedboatchase wrote: »

And of course the news that she would be allowed stay would be international and show the world that we're a soft touch when it comes to illegal immigration, so "10 more ppl" would be a gross understatement. I feel sorry for the kids but the argument that "ooh we'll just allow it for her, the poor woman" doesnt hold weight because it sets a danerous precedent that plenty of illegal immigrants would follow.

Although i am not happy with illegal immigrants been allowed to stay i feel that been prepared to sacrifice innocent children for appearance sake (so as not to appear a soft touch) is immoral.You judge a society by how it treats the weakest members.
If under the law the mother has to go ,at the very least offer to accept the children into care.As for discouraging future illegal immigrants you don't do it by punishing children.You do it by putting proper systems/controls in place to prevent them gaining access in the first place.

HollyB

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

If under the law the mother has to go ,at the very least offer to accept the children into care.

Is that actually an option, legally?

AlekSmart

As for discouraging future illegal immigrants you don't do it by punishing children.You do it by putting proper systems/controls in place to prevent them gaining access in the first place.

All well and good but Ms Izvebekhai`s case is not about being an immigrant,illegal or otherwise.
It is about her specific claims for Asylum,then subsidary protections and if this fails humanitarian derogation from deportation.

This State has a "proper" Asylum control system in place,or at least it had,until the traffickers and those well advised and funded enough to utilize their services began to explore and exploit those loopholes which have been a feature of leglislation since the time of Moses.

Even now we have the State moving to strenghten it`s "proper"system but all the while having to do it in the face of close observation from those who will most likely immediately move to subvert the "new Improved" version too.

Thus far I`m sticking with my support of the Nigerian Ambassador and her offers to Ms Isevbekhai.

blackiebest

opo wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that you believe that FGM - on a global scale - is Irelands problem to solve and protect against rather than those countries where it is prevalent?

And why?

No. Of course I do not think FGM is Irelands problem to solve and protect against. I imagine that you, like me, think that this practice is brutal and wrong when applied to young girls or anybody for that matter against their will. Where I stand on it all is this. My daughter plays with those girls when they meet up. Barr colour nobody could tell them apart from my little girl. Same in every way. They could and in their eyes will face FGM if forced to return to Nigeria. I believe that, in this particular case, it is Irelands duty to protect these children. I also believe that Pamela should be allowed to stay here and become a citizen of Ireland. I think this is the right thing in this case.

The apparent distain displayed against this opinion and indeed Pamela is something I find difficult to understand. She is, IMO, just doing what I would do in similar circumstances. Her lawyers are working pro bono, she receives 19e per week. If there are massive costs incurred by the state in dealing with this case then surely the system should be attacked and not the individual.

An earlier post referred to the illegal Irish in the USA and as I was one in the late 80's I confirm that the abuses of the US system by our countrymen are massive. We have lied, forged, avoided and evaded being caught and sent home with any means we could. Many eventually got 'documented' and rightly so. Persistence can sometime pay off and in this case I believe it will.

rkeane

I believe you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that Pamela Izevbekhai will be allowed leave to remain. She will be deported...and with good reason. Every court has ruled against her, its only a matter of time ...the minister will uphold the integrity of the immigration system.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

An earlier post referred to the illegal Irish in the USA and as I was one in the late 80's I confirm that the abuses of the US system by our countrymen are massive. We have lied, forged, avoided and evaded being caught and sent home with any means we could. Many eventually got 'documented' and rightly so. Persistence can sometime pay off and in this case I believe it will.

Crikey,THIS really is "Irishism" at it`s Jesuitical best.

It is to me a breathtaking display of the very attitude which has led to the virtual bankruptcy of Ireland as a country.

Blackiebest,are you seriously suggesting this is a viable,desirable or acceptable way of living within any society ?

Perhaps Ms Izevbekhai`s persistence will eventually "pay off" and her use of the tactics as described in your post will see her triumph,however if she does,it will be at huge cost to the integrity of Ireland as a viable entity in itself rather than becoming some "Bad Asylum Bank" into which the Wolrd can deposit its toxic human trafficking debt.

Pamela Izevbekhai responded first by going on the run from the immigration authorities—for which she served a month in Mountjoy prison—and then by launching the appeals that have now been ongoing for over three years.

I sometimes wonder if this Month in Mountjoy was where the real basis for all that has happened since was formulated.
I`m sure the Dochas facility has it`s full compliment of lawful legal advisory procedures and then some.
It would certainly seem that much of the high profile Media Stuff really kicked in following on from Ms Izevbekhai`s incarceration there.

I also believe that Pamela should be allowed to stay here and become a citizen of Ireland. I think this is the right thing in this case.

And I dont hold that belief,which gets us right back to the thread`s topic.

HollyB

blackiebest wrote: »

An earlier post referred to the illegal Irish in the USA and as I was one in the late 80's I confirm that the abuses of the US system by our countrymen are massive. We have lied, forged, avoided and evaded being caught and sent home with any means we could. Many eventually got 'documented' and rightly so. Persistence can sometime pay off and in this case I believe it will.

You believe that dishonest behaviour like the behaviour you have described was rightly rewarded with documented status? Do you really think that dishonesty should be rewarded?

If somebody is going to be singled out and given special leave to remain, it should be one of the asylum seekers who have always cooperated fully with Gardaí and immigration authorities, not those who are using persistence as a means of securing leave to remain even if they are not found to be entitled to asylum or subsidiary protection. At this point, the Izevbekhai case needs to follow through in the ECHR. If they succeed, then of course they should stay. If not, persistence is not grounds for special treatment.

opo

GuanYin wrote: »

snip

Now, my point is. PI, has made her self known to the state. She is legally entitled to be there until her case is resolved.

I am not sure who your point is directed at.

I do know that there is precedent in Western countries where those in in the interminable legal process have been deported.

To the best of my knowledge, her case was resolved years ago and the legal process has failed to disprove otherwise despite numerous attempts.

In this specific case, the ECHR has requested that Ireland not deport PI until they consider the arguments.

Are you suggesting that PI is legally here and the ECHR is somehow unaware of that?

opo

blackiebest wrote: »

No. Of course I do not think FGM is Irelands problem to solve and protect against. I imagine that you, like me, think that this practice is brutal and wrong when applied to young girls or anybody for that matter against their will. Where I stand on it all is this. My daughter plays with those girls when they meet up. Barr colour nobody could tell them apart from my little girl. Same in every way. They could and in their eyes will face FGM if forced to return to Nigeria. I believe that, in this particular case, it is Irelands duty to protect these children. I also believe that Pamela should be allowed to stay here and become a citizen of Ireland. I think this is the right thing in this case.

The apparent distain displayed against this opinion and indeed Pamela is something I find difficult to understand. She is, IMO, just doing what I would do in similar circumstances. Her lawyers are working pro bono, she receives 19e per week. If there are massive costs incurred by the state in dealing with this case then surely the system should be attacked and not the individual.

An earlier post referred to the illegal Irish in the USA and as I was one in the late 80's I confirm that the abuses of the US system by our countrymen are massive. We have lied, forged, avoided and evaded being caught and sent home with any means we could. Many eventually got 'documented' and rightly so. Persistence can sometime pay off and in this case I believe it will.

In synopsis:

I don't believe Pamela has been honest in her dealings with our sytems.
I agree with you - our systems are flawed and wide open to abuse. Case in point.
I don't believe that her daughters will be subject to FGM without her consent.
I believe that Nigeria can provide adequate geographical scope to escape any threat - real or manufactured.
I don't believe Ireland is some mythical escape route - in particular - where the escapee is so flippant about the extensive media coverage generated - unlikely in any part of Africa.
I have difficulty in respecting self-aggrandising lawyers with the spin-off trade acting pro bono whilst the taxpayer foots the bill for every other aspect of PI's existence.

Your points on being an illegal immigrant and your unfortunate guilt complex- what everyone else has said.

GuanYin

opo wrote: »

In this specific case, the ECHR has requested that Ireland not deport PI until they consider the arguments.

Are you suggesting that PI is legally here and the ECHR is somehow unaware of that?

And Ireland has complied with the request and stayed the deportation order. Until the ECHR either hears the case and it fails, or the Irish government decides to decline the stay of deportation, she is under no legal obligation to leave.

opo

GuanYin wrote: »

And Ireland has complied with the request and stayed the deportation order. Until the ECHR either hears the case and it fails, or the Irish government decides to decline the stay of deportation, she is under no legal obligation to leave.

I think it is fair to say that Ireland has indulged the ECHR request not to deport her. It is not the same as saying that Ireland has granted her legal status to remain or that status ever applied following the rejection of her claim to asylum some years ago.

I am of the belief that she is illegally here and lucky to indulge a system that is suspending the legally appropriate measures applicable despite being entitled to do so otherwise.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

opo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Also, mysteriously, why seek asylum in the one European Country that could honestly boast the highest numbers of Nigerian asylum seekers in Europe - year on year for the last decade?

If escaping Nigerians was the point - why here?

GuanYin

opo wrote: »

I am of the belief that she is illegally here and lucky to indulge a system that is suspending the legally appropriate measures applicable despite being entitled to do so otherwise.

Well the fact is she is under no legal obligation to leave Ireland nor is there currently a definite date where she must depart.

In light of any standing legal obligation to leave, she is, to all intends and purposes, legally in Ireland.

Your beliefs, are a matter of faith and don't really hold much to the debate.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

opo

GuanYin wrote: »

Well the fact is she is under no legal obligation to leave Ireland nor is there currently a definite date where she must depart.

In light of any standing legal obligation to leave, she is, to all intends and purposes, legally in Ireland.

Your beliefs, are a matter of faith and don't really hold much to the debate.

I am not arguing beliefs.

I am arguing facts. PI is not a legal resident of Ireland.

Is that too simple for you?

If you have a point - then make it. If you think PI is a legal resident of this country then state what status that implies.