Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

Big_Mac

dodgyme wrote: »

although I never mentioned the children -...........shouldnt it be the parents responsible for the children? thats fair and very called for

Unquestionably. I soely blame the parents for this, not the children.

blackiebest

dodgyme wrote: »

well respect is and she seems to have yours

Well she had, I have suspended it for now. But that is very different to dignity. It might serve you well to understand the difference.

james116

Big_Mac wrote: »

They don't? Really? This from a mother who said: "Whatever I have to do to protect my children, I will do"

Now, unless she said the above, and added as an addendum 'Except making up stories about dead babies that I didn't have' This is completely open to interpretation.

The LHS Brigade can say whatever they like. Until Pamela can provide any credible (Note the word credible there)information to back up the existence of Elizabeth, she may well not have existed at all



Unless she can provide evidence that her son exists, then who knows about that either. She has already admitted to submitting forged documents, who knows what else has been fabricated?

at the end of the day she lied to the court and should be sent home.

HollyB

blackiebest wrote: »

If this family is deported then it should be executed with dignity. Only for Naomi and Jemimas sake we should do everything to ensure the transition is as smooth as possible and I would endorse more resources/money be spent if it will lessen the trauma inflicted on them and insure their re-integration into Nigerian society will be as painless as possible. There is a human element involved here and that is as much a fact as the forged documents. While these kids were not born here they, rightly, consider themselves Irish. They are the real victims. We should consider them and the effects their parents actions will have on them. Some of the posts here are shameful and not reflective of a society I wish to be a part of.

In terms of the deportation, I would say that it will be a lot easier on Naomi and Jemima if Pamela cooperates and there isn't a need for a big deal about it. It might be better if the Gardaí escorting them wear plain clothes rather than their uniforms, if that's possible. The media and those who might turn up to protest the deportation also have their part to play in it - if I was 6 or 8, I'd find people waving placards and shouting that deportation means mutilation frightening, and the same goes for cameras waved in my face.

Timing-wise, the primary schools will be on holiday for Easter soon, if they're not already, so if the deportation takes place over the Easter holidays, it won't mean a disruption of the school term. If things drag out past the Easter holidays, I don't know if waiting until the school breaks up for the summer would be possible.

Presumably, Tony Izevbekhai will be informed of the date of deportation and his family's likely time of return so that he can be at the airport to meet them.

doomedtofail

blackiebest wrote: »

No its not. Dignity is a trait displayed towards others, in all circumstances, by people who possess it.

If you'd like to get pedantic...


dignity


• noun ([SIZE=-1]pl.[/SIZE] dignities) 1 the state or quality of being worthy of respect. 2 a composed or serious manner. 3 a sense of pride in oneself.


1 the state or quality of being worthy of respect
We're not here to discuss if Pam is worthy of respect, that's a given under any number of charters you wish to list off. It's just a pity she has shown nothing but a healthy dose of cynical disrespect for our courts of law by submitting fraudulent documentation to them.

2 a composed or serious manner
Hmm that teary-eyed photo of Pam from the IT, one of a battling mother fending off those evil forces enforcing the laws this state relies on to function, does seem to suggest this is a serious matter. Serious enough even to use your children as pawns in a fabricated tale of international legions of revenge mongers?

3 a sense of pride in oneself
Nuff said.

blueythebear

TomRooney wrote: »

all cases of asylum should be dealt with whitin 6 months, with a limited allowance for appeals, there should be just grounds for an appeal other than the person just doesnt like the decision.

we need to get rid of the red tape and beurocracy in Ireland, it is crippling the country.

In practical terms, a 6 month deadline isn't realistic. There are 4 applications open to each asylum seeker, initial asylum application to the ORAC, appeal to the RAT followed by subsidiary protection and leave to remain (these last two are done at the same time). The RAC and RAT are generally quick enough in processing claims but the last two applications go to the Department of Justice, who take years to do anything. The problem of excessive length of asylum cases is down to the Department of Justice as well as the delays in the courts system.

A refusal of any of the applications can be challenged by way of judicial review if the applicant wishes and there are grounds to do so. Unfortunately, the list of cases pending in the asylum section is HUGE and so it takes at least a year for a judicial review to be heard. The reason the decisions are open to judicial review is because of poor decision making by the relevant bodies.

"there should be just grounds for an appeal other than the person just doesnt like the decision"

There are grounds for appealing in each case. No appeal would be even entertained if the grounds were that "I don't like the decision". There ALWAYS must be grounds to appeal for an appeal to be drafted in the first place.

T runner

If an authentic death certificate actually existed, surely it could be requisitioned from the Nigerian state. The Izevbekhais are effectively arguing that the death certificate is the private property of Dr Unokanjo, and that he won't give it to them without charging an extortionate fee. That is patent nonsense. A death certificate is part of the public record.

There were 54 death certificates files in Sulukere in 1993 (the district in question), a district with the same population as Liverpool. The Nigerian State don't do death certificates.

In terms of the deportation, I would say that it will be a lot easier on Naomi and Jemima if Pamela cooperates and there isn't a need for a big deal about it. It might be better if the Gardaí escorting them wear plain clothes rather than their uniforms, if that's possible. The media and those who might turn up to protest the deportation also have their part to play in it - if I was 6 or 8, I'd find people waving placards and shouting that deportation means mutilation frightening, and the same goes for cameras waved in my face.

Without a doubt. I assume they would be more frightened of the people who turn up to applaud their departure, the people who think that this situation has arisen because they are Nigerian.

Permabear

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TomRooney

blueythebear wrote: »

In practical terms, a 6 month deadline isn't realistic. There are 4 applications open to each asylum seeker, initial asylum application to the ORAC, appeal to the RAT followed by subsidiary protection and leave to remain (these last two are done at the same time). The RAC and RAT are generally quick enough in processing claims but the last two applications go to the Department of Justice, who take years to do anything. The problem of excessive length of asylum cases is down to the Department of Justice as well as the delays in the courts system.

A refusal of any of the applications can be challenged by way of judicial review if the applicant wishes and there are grounds to do so. Unfortunately, the list of cases pending in the asylum section is HUGE and so it takes at least a year for a judicial review to be heard. The reason the decisions are open to judicial review is because of poor decision making by the relevant bodies.

"there should be just grounds for an appeal other than the person just doesnt like the decision"

There are grounds for appealing in each case. No appeal would be even entertained if the grounds were that "I don't like the decision". There ALWAYS must be grounds to appeal for an appeal to be drafted in the first place.

the reason a 6 month deadline isnt possible is because of the 4 appeals, cut the crap get rid of the beurocracy we dont need it full stop

doomedtofail

T runner wrote: »

There were 54 death certificates files in Sulukere in 1993 (the district in question), a district with the same population as Liverpool. The Nigerian State don't do death certificates.

Can you please cite references and sources to these claims?

Actually you know what, don't bother. Regardless of any future argument you return the simple fact (if not the simplest in all of the previous 130 pages that has been repeated time and time again) is this:

SHE SUBMITTED FORGED DOCUMENTS TO A COURT OF LAW HOPING TO HOODWINK THE AUTHORITIES.

If you or I did that with a tax audit, insurance claim, whatever, we could (and quite rightly) expect the full weight of the law upon us.

The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

There were 54 death certificates files in Sulukere in 1993 (the district in question), a district with the same population as Liverpool. The Nigerian State don't do death certificates.

Where is this Sulukere district? I assume you mean a Nigerian Local Government Area or something else?

Without a doubt. I assume they would be more frightened of the people who turn up to applaud their departure, the people who think that this situation has arisen because they are Nigerian.

I thought this situation had arisen because of a fraudulent asylum claim?

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Any individual publications appears to need the consent of the person and the minister. That means she has done nothing wrong in giving her consent to punlications.

Like it or not any publications made without her consent while she was an asylum seeker appear to be breaking the refugee Act.

If for example the Irish government accepted a tip off from the Nigerian authorities about the forged death cert while she was still an asylum seeker, questions would need to be asked.

Its best for the asylum process and the country that this case is heard by the supreme court.

TomRooney

she should in fact serve a sentance for breaking the Law of Ireland by fraudulantly claiming asylum and fraudulantly supplying false documents in support of the case. then she should be deported.

Permabear

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HollyB

T runner wrote: »

Without a doubt. I assume they would be more frightened of the people who turn up to applaud their departure, the people who think that this situation has arisen because they are Nigerian.

Are there actually people who are planning to turn up at the airport to applaud the family's departure? That's something I could never condone. If it's a risk, maybe Pamela and the Gardaí could arrange the time of departure and not make it public knowledge until after they're gone.

T runner

The Corinthian wrote: »

Where is this Sulukere district? I assume you mean a Nigerian Local Government Area or something else?

This is a district of Lagos (where the doctors hospital is)

I thought this situation had arisen because of a fraudulent asylum claim?

Perhaps, but many Irish people (and some on this thread) are trying to correlate the fraudulent Act (by whomever) to the applicants nationality.

HollyB

donegalfella wrote: »

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If that part of the doctor's testimony is incorrect, the Izevbekhais can prove that by producing Adrian Izevbekhai. DNA tests will be able to confirm whether or not he is Pamela and Tony Izevbekhai's son and, if he's a teenager, one look at him will confirm that he was born prior to 2000.

T runner

HollyB wrote: »

Are there actually people who are planning to turn up at the airport to applaud the family's departure? That's something I could never condone. If it's a risk, maybe Pamela and the Gardaí could arrange the time of departure and not make it public knowledge until after they're gone.

I would agree. If the deportation goes ahead you may have people opposing the deportation there. You may also have people of the far right turn up.

These people are the ugly foot soldiers of the ideology that behavioural patterns are strongly related to the nationality of the people in question.

There have been posts backing this viewpoint on this thread throughout: some more subtle than others.

Permabear

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T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Have you a link to this story please?

There were 54 death certificates in that district that year. That means that many, many death certs were/are not issued for dead people in that district and presumably most districts of Lagos and Nigeria.

The death certificate for Elizabeth was number 55.
The forger either saw what the Irish officials were allowed see or was in a position by his profession to know that 54 certs existed that year.
The gardai are not saying much more than that it was a forgery.
How does one normally get death certs from Nigeria when they have not been recorded?
Whats the views of the Nigerian police on forgeries of death certs in Nigeria?
Whats their experience?

Also, what do you make of the statements by Dr. Unokanjo, Mrs Izevbekhai's gynecologist and consultant obstetrician since before her marriage, that she did not bear any children prior to the birth of Naomi in 2000?

It depends on if the Nigerian authorities have been "in touch" with him or not.

HollyB

donegalfella wrote: »

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So, basically, unless an applicant gives his or her consent, the first publication outing their identity would be in trouble for revealing their presence in Ireland without their permission? However, if that first publication has the consent of the applicant - or is made by the applicant, ie. an Internet publication on the likes of Indymedia - other publications couldn't be revealing the identity of somebody whose identity was already revealed?

That strikes me as fair enough. If the applicant was able to grant or withhold permission even after their identity was made public, they'd basically be able to control the media and only allow the publication of material that supported their party line, if they so chose.

Permabear

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The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

This is a district of Lagos (where the doctors hospital is)

Are you sure you've not misspelt it? Sulukere does not appear to exist.

Perhaps, but many Irish people (and some on this thread) are trying to correlate the fraudulent Act (by whomever) to the applicants nationality.

Well, strictly speaking, there is a correlation between the fraudulent Act and the applicants nationality, in that Nigeria does have an international reputation for a healthy fraud industry (e.g. 4-1-9 scams).

Of course, this does not imply proof of fraud in itself, neither should it be taken as such; that lies simply in the admission by Izevbekhai that forgeries were submitted. All that remains to be seen is whether she was party to the fraud or her husband acted alone, and TBH, most would be incredulous to the latter.

Permabear

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HollyB

donegalfella wrote: »

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They don't need to put him on a plane to Ireland.

If the Gardaí can go over to Nigeria to investigate Dr Unokanjo, they can also go over there to take DNA samples from Adrian and Tony Izevbekhai, while Gardaí in Ireland take a sample from Pamela. The samples can be kept supervised by Gardaí to ensure that they are not interfered with until they are tested and then once the results are out, either Pamela would have proof that she had a child prior to 2000 or else the State would be able to point to evidence of falsehood on her part.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

As amended in 2003, the

But by launching a nationwide campaign, by giving interviews to the Irish and international press, and by appearing on national radio and television, Mrs Izevbekhai thoroughly waived her right to privacy.

That is simply incorrect. Permission must be given for each "publication": each "publisher" is liable. There is no provision for consent to be given to all publications.

The "tip off" about the forged death certificate came when the Gardaí interviewed the real Dr Unokanjo in Lagos.

Do you really believe that?

Mrs Izevbekhai has until Friday's Supreme Court hearing to present compelling evidence that supports her story. Otherwise, the courts will believe the sworn testimony of her longtime gynecologist and obstetrician that an alleged child called Elizabeth never actually existed. They will also have to consider the fact that Mrs Izevbekhai, by her own admission, has filed a forged death certificate and a forged affidavit purporting to be from Dr Unokanjo. In all likelihood, they will conclude that Mrs Izevbekhai has attempted to defraud the Irish courts, and her legal challenge will collapse.

Hopefully someone may ponder why the alleged death of a child for FGM was not considered germane to the case in the first place as it should have been.

They may also ponder any Nigerian authorities guarantee of safety to the family given their track record of complete lack of implementation of the Nigerian authorities agreement with Ireland to do just that to every returnee.

Maybe the justice might comment that this case should does not exonerate the practice of FGM in Nigeria or mean that it doesnt exist as our minister has wisely deduced with the help of his Nigerian advisers.

Permabear

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blueythebear

TomRooney wrote: »

the reason a 6 month deadline isnt possible is because of the 4 appeals, cut the crap get rid of the beurocracy we dont need it full stop

They are NOT 4 appeals. Only the application to the RAT is an appeal and everybody is entitled to appeal a decision against them in order to ensure no mistakes are made in the first decision. So you can't cut out the RAC and RAT.

Subsidiary protection application is a requirement of EU law so we can't cut that out. The leave to remain application is essentially a last gasp application which considers all of the information pertaining to the applicant. The Minister decides if on humanitarian grounds the person shouldbe allowed to stay. This is a much different application to any of the preceeding ones and so it cannot be cut out either.

Like I said, the only way to speed the process up is to have the Dept of Justice get the finger out and also to speed up the waiting times in courts.

doomedtofail

HollyB wrote: »

They don't need to put him on a plane to Ireland.

If the Gardaí can go over to Nigeria to investigate Dr Unokanjo, they can also go over there to take DNA samples from Adrian and Tony Izevbekhai, while Gardaí in Ireland take a sample from Pamela. The samples can be kept supervised by Gardaí to ensure that they are not interfered with until they are tested and then once the results are out, either Pamela would have proof that she had a child prior to 2000 or else the State would be able to point to evidence of falsehood on her part.

At what I can only imagine to be exorbitant cost to the taxpayer. Why should someone who has such disdain for our Courts of Law be afforded such exhaustive investigative time and energy? Granted, perhaps before she admitted to being a perpetrator of fraudulent acts, that this may have been of some use to supporting her case but she has left a lot of people with egg on their face, our asylum process a shambles (which really she should be thanked for highlighting), and, at the most conservative estimate, our public purse E500,000 the lighter.

She obstructed the course of justice and will be treated accordingly for this act. Looking at the spin campaign she has headed, which in the end transpired to be all built on a web of lies, I'd be truly embarrassed to be Nigerian right now...although they do have a certain propensity for a good scam as noted above.

the_syco

T runner wrote: »

These people are the ugly foot soldiers

There are "ugly foot soldiers" who believe she is innocent, and will attempt to stop her deportation.

T runner wrote: »

There were 54 death certificates in that district that year. That means that many, many death certs were/are not issued for dead people in that district and presumably most districts of Lagos and Nigeria.

The death certificate for Elizabeth was number 55.

If there was no death cert made for the person in question by the state, and there is a death cert for that person, it means that it's highly likely the death cert is fraudulant.