Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

The Raven.

EF wrote: »

I have found it to be an interesting forum because I have studied and worked in related areas. While it won't make a difference to many here if she is deported or not there is a much bigger picture about:

the practice of FGM & corruption in Nigeria and across the world, the inefficiencies in the asylum process, the whole concept of what asylum is and the importance of sticking to the facts in any case, the abuse of the asylum process by fraudulent applicants, the role of the media and the at times biased attitude shown by them in such asylum cases, the ineptitude of the media to discover the facts before putting their case forward in the national media, the cost to the State in accommodating asylum seekers, the cost to the State of legal challenges made against decisions in the asylum process, the racism issue...etc I could go on.

It is indeed a very interesting thread, EF, and a very important one, for all the reasons you have stated above. While it may not affect us directly as individuals in the short term, if Pamela Izevbekhai is allowed to stay, it undoubtedly has the potential to affect us in the long term.

I would see the two most important issues raised by this debate as:

1. It has created an awareness of the tragic and violent practise of FGM.
2. The abusive and flaws of Irish immigration laws, and the consequences.

This thread should not be about scoring points or winning an argument. There is always a tendency in such debates to follow the most popular view of those with the loudest voice. In the Sligo town, that seems to be ‘Let them stay’, while on Boards.ie it seems to be ‘Send them home’, in agreement with the government.

Kevin Myers made a valid point, notwithstanding cynicism, which warrants consideration.

And by God, no reasoned debate about asylum-seekers would be remotely possible if we expelled a little girl back to Africa, and the poor little thing were then circumcised, or even worse, died as a consequence. Neither our courts nor the media would be immune to the hysteria that would result. Kevin Myers.

'Our population of Nigerians is probably large enough, thank you'

It should not be a foregone conclusion that it won’t happen. It does happen and it is a possibility, in spite of the lies in this case. How can we presume to know for certain? We can only speculate at best. However, it is up to Nigeria, and other offending countries, to make an immediate and concerted effort to end this shameful and savage assault on women.

Deportation is a complex choice to have to make. On the one hand, the FGM situation is widespread and barbaric. The official Nigerian reports are questionable to say the least. On the other hand, this case will undoubtedly set a precedent, one way or the other. But this is not Ireland’s problem, and due to the sheer volume of occurrences of FGM, it would be unthinkable to accept wide scale FGM refugees, whether genuine or otherwise. It would only take one successful applicant, on these grounds, to open the floodgates for thousands more.


The use of callous, ill-informed comments such as:

O'Coonassa wrote: »

I don't actually mind about FGM, African womens I talked to are cool about it, they say they do it for hygeine and appearance.

or flippant terminology such as ‘razor-wielding relatives/mothers-in-laws’, do not constructively contribute to the gravity of the situation, which should not be undermined or trivialized. Consequently, I find it important to draw attention to the following:

3 million girls excised [mutilated] every year

150 million mutilated women in the world

Every minute 8 young girls undergo genital mutilation

BEWARE, THIS VIDEO SHOWS AN EXCISION. These images may shock you. It's up to you to decide if you want to watch them.

http://www.care2.com/news/go/408550

Further source of information: FGM Videos for Educational Purposes

A sensitivity towards the atrocious plight of millions of FGM sufferers would lend more credibility to an otherwise profound debate.

O'Coonassa

lol Western hypocrites are whooping up a storm about FGM. Every day in both Africa, and more importantly in Western hospitals, little boys and youths are bleeding to death through circumscision or complications arising from it. Where are you on that topic Raven? I've spoken to women who've been through the procedure, they give the same reasons that Jewish people give for 'mutilation' but because they're Africans you don't want to listen. IMO patronising arrogant Westerners should keep their noses out of other peoples cultures until they've got their own in order.

zynaps

O'Coonassa wrote: »

lol Western hypocrites are whooping up a storm about FGM. Every day in both Africa, and more importantly in Western hospitals, little boys and youths are bleeding to death through circumscision or complications arising from it. Where are you on that topic Raven? I've spoken to women who've been through the procedure, they give the same reasons that Jewish people give for 'mutilation' but because they're Africans you don't want to listen. IMO patronising arrogant Westerners should keep their noses out of other peoples cultures until they've got their own in order.

Watch the video and try saying that. For the record, I think forced male circumcision is also disgusting and brutal, but if the majority of FGM 'operations' are carried out in conditions like this video then there's almost no comparison.

O'Coonassa

zynaps wrote: »

Watch the video and try saying that. For the record, I think forced male circumcision is also disgusting and brutal, but if the majority of FGM 'operations' are carried out in conditions like this video then there's almost no comparison.

I watched the vid, the girl she was very brave I think. She will be a strong one in a very harsh place I believe. In the exact same conditions in the exact same countries boys also are subjected to this 'genital mutilation'. It is a rite of passage.

Like I say boys die every day in Western hospitals from this 'genital mutilation'. Westerners should either stop it on their own turf or stay quiet, otherwise they just look like hypocritical racists in the eyes of the world.

The Raven.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

lol Western hypocrites are whooping up a storm about FGM.

It’s no laughing matter. It is extremely important that the practise of FGM is brought out into the open and stopped.

Every day in both Africa, and more importantly in Western hospitals, little boys and youths are bleeding to death through circumscision or complications arising from it. Where are you on that topic Raven?

Do you have links? Of course I’m aware of male circumcision, as it has been around for a long time. However, if ‘little boys and youths are bleeding to death through circumcision or complications arising from it’ there is something seriously wrong. I know that it is carried out in African communities by people outside the medical profession. We had a case here in Cork where the 29-day-old boy Collis Osaighe died as a result. I find that shocking and totally unacceptable. It has also been argued that male circumcision on infants and children is a violation of human rights, as a child is not able to give his consent.

I've spoken to women who've been through the procedure, they give the same reasons that Jewish people give for 'mutilation' but because they're Africans you don't want to listen.

I cannot account for what reasons they gave you, but from all the information that I have seen, FGM is not done for the same reason as Jewish circumcision, which is generally thought to be for reasons of hygiene. Check it out on the links I posted.

IMO patronising arrogant Westerners should keep their noses out of other peoples cultures until they've got their own in order.

I’m afraid they have made it our business in the case of Pamela Izevbekhai and at least one other would-be FGM refugee. The same goes for Mr Igbinedion in the Cork case, and any others who bring their brutal ‘cultural’ practises to our shores.

The Raven.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

I watched the vid, the girl she was very brave I think. She will be a strong one in a very harsh place I believe.

That is utter nonsense! The poor child was screaming in agony.

opo

The Raven. wrote: »

That is utter nonsense! The poor child was screaming in agony.

Out of curiousity, Do you really believe that the UNHCR is the appropriate vehicle for dealing with localised cultural issues such as FGM (in Africa) and that far flung - non-contiguous countries, such as Ireland (in Western Europe) - should simply render their borders obsolete to achieve that aim - regardless of calibre or quantity of individuals?

zynaps

opo wrote: »

Out of curiousity, Do you really believe that the UNHCR is the appropriate vehicle for dealing with localised cultural issues such as FGM (in Africa) and that far flung - non-contiguous countries, such as Ireland (in Western Europe) - should simply render their borders obsolete to achieve that aim?

Your bold, italic and underlined cultural suggests to me that you consider cultural practices as sacrosanct, above criticism and generally "none of our business". Is this a correct interpretation of your font style hint?
Again, when is it 'right' to intervene or extend protection to those suffering from such culture?
What about Sharia law, where young women are stoned to death or shotgunned by their family for breaking some taboo (such as being raped or marrying outside the village)?
What about Jihad suicide bombers? What about genocide motivated by 'cultural' values?

While I don't support anyone who is clearly gaming the system for economic gain, I also don't support a stick-your-head-in-the-sand approach just because it's a cultural thing.

opo

zynaps wrote: »

Your bold, italic and underlined cultural suggests to me that you consider cultural practices as sacrosanct, above criticism and generally "none of our business". Is this a correct interpretation of your font style hint?
Again, when is it 'right' to intervene or extend protection to those suffering from such culture?
What about Sharia law, where young women are stoned to death or shotgunned by their family for breaking some taboo (such as being raped or marrying outside the village)?
What about Jihad suicide bombers? What about genocide motivated by 'cultural' values?

While I don't support anyone who is clearly gaming the system for economic gain, I also don't support a stick-your-head-in-the-sand approach just because it's a cultural thing.

I think I pretexted my question around UNHCR provisions.

I don't know of a system that could, or would, offer unqualified super-national relocation options for the premises you describe - or that would be acceptable to the immediate receiving countries - never mind those countries thousands of miles away (that would be us).

What are you suggesting we do?

I admit we are probably short on our quota of Jihad suicide bombers and genocidal maniacs but I suspect that's something you regret more than I do and unlike you - I simply don't want them here, nor do I believe there is a viable solution by enticing them here.

CCCP^

The Raven. wrote: »

Kevin Myers made a valid point, notwithstanding cynicism, which warrants consideration.

I usually can't stand Kevin Myers, but he did make a good point, and after reading that and thinking, I believe that this woman should be allowed to stay.

I don't believe however, that female circumsion, should be allowed as a valid reason to seef refuge in Ireland. I do not like the idea of it all to be honest, I think it's a horrible thing to do and I can't quite understand why it needs to be done exactly, but that's the story in Nigeria.

opo

CCCP^ wrote: »

I usually can't stand Kevin Myers, but he did make a good point, and after reading that and thinking, I believe that this woman should be allowed to stay.

I don't believe however, that female circumsion, should be allowed as a valid reason to seef refuge in Ireland. I do not like the idea of it all to be honest, I think it's a horrible thing to do and I can't quite understand why it needs to be done exactly, but that's the story in Nigeria.

In this case, It's not.

live2thewire

let the women stay you charlitans.

The Raven.

opo wrote: »

Out of curiousity, Do you really believe that the UNHCR is the appropriate vehicle for dealing with localised cultural issues such as FGM (in Africa) and that far flung - non-contiguous countries, such as Ireland (in Western Europe) - should simply render their borders obsolete to achieve that aim - regardless of calibre or quantity of individuals?

Opo, I have to agree with Zynaps on this, if that is why you have underlined the term ‘cultural’ . As a matter of fact, your post is not making much sense to me. Your liberal use of dashes, rather than normal punctuation, is creating unnecessary obfuscation.

Firstly, your question: ‘Do you really believe…’ suggests to me that you think that I do believe, but believe what? Where have I mentioned the UNHCR? Do I ‘really believe’ that Ireland should ‘simply render their borders obsolete [whatever that is supposed to mean] to achieve’ what aim? I think you are barking up the wrong tree, if it is what I think you mean.

Perhaps you would care to clarify your questions, as I can only guess at what you are trying to say.

Judging from your post no. #2470, you seem to be assuming that anyone who criticises FGM is automatically willing to admit hoards of African women into Ireland. It should be noted that a revulsion towards FGM and commonsense towards unsustainable immigration are not mutually exclusive.

zynaps

opo wrote: »

I admit we are probably short on our quota of Jihad suicide bombers and genocidal maniacs but I suspect that's something you regret more than I do and unlike you - I simply don't want them here, nor do I believe there is a viable solution by enticing them here.

I'm not sure if you're attempting humour here, but I was obviously referring to the victims of suicide bombers and genocidal maniacs, rather than suggesting that we welcome Stalin and Pol Pot to Ireland.

O'Coonassa

The Raven. wrote: »

It’s no laughing matter. It is extremely important that the practise of FGM is brought out into the open and stopped.

You are listening to propaganda that masquerades as 'information' but is geared to making you think a certain way. FGM has been out in the open for thousands of years. You say it is no laughing matter and yet I daresay you've heard the joke about the Rabbi who makes €450 a week plus tips. This is a cultural thing, a phenomenon. The charge against it has been led by white American and European women. There is an utter hypocrisy at the base of their denunciation in that not only do the little boys scream and suffer such poor hygeine as seen in the vid, they too die of the complications and not just in Africa but in Western hospitals also.

Me I'm not on for little kids having their sex organs mutilated. I think it's pretty fuct up TBH. However if as a species we've reached a point where we feel it's not cool to be acting like apes, and it's no longer OK to slice bits off childrens genitals; then we should stop doing it in the West before we can say to Africans to stop doing it. That's the decent thing. Otherwise Africans will think that we are an even bigger shower of cvnts than they already do.

The Raven. wrote: »

Do you have links? Of course I’m aware of male circumcision, as it has been around for a long time. However, if ‘little boys and youths are bleeding to death through circumcision or complications arising from it’ there is something seriously wrong. I know that it is carried out in African communities by people outside the medical profession. We had a case here in Cork where the 29-day-old boy Collis Osaighe died as a result. I find that shocking and totally unacceptable. It has also been argued that male circumcision on infants and children is a violation of human rights, as a child is not able to give his consent.

http://www.cirp.org/library/death/

The Raven. wrote: »

I cannot account for what reasons they gave you, but from all the information that I have seen, FGM is not done for the same reason as Jewish circumcision, which is generally thought to be for reasons of hygiene. Check it out on the links I posted.

The reasons are cultural. Humans love their cultures and like to stick by them no matter how fuct up and stupid they are. The given reasons for the phenomenon that the FGM propaganda plays up are from post-Islamic\Christian culture. Really where it comes from is that the foreskin is 'female' and the clitoris etc is 'male' therefore 'wrong', that and hygeine and 'looks' are the real given reasons from before. The Jews probably got the idea off the Africans there are ancient Egyptian mummies that underwent circumscision.

The Raven. wrote: »

I’m afraid they have made it our business in the case of Pamela Izevbekhai and at least one other would-be FGM refugee. The same goes for Mr Igbinedion in the Cork case, and any others who bring their brutal ‘cultural’ practises to our shores.

If poor people know that the rich people will be overcome by sympathy for the plight of little girls then it's only natural that they will use FGM as a ticket to the place where all the money is. But it's hardly brutal is it if they do the same thing in the western hospitals? Western people are civilised right?

O'Coonassa

The Raven. wrote: »

That is utter nonsense! The poor child was screaming in agony.

Of course she was screaming but I do not think that makes her any less brave for what she underwent. The process itself has made here braver and tougher. In a place as harsh as Africa to be brave and tough is no bad thing. If you are soft you will not survive in that place.

mealone43

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Of course she was screaming but I do not think that makes her any less brave for what she underwent. The process itself has made here braver and tougher. In a place as harsh as Africa to be brave and tough is no bad thing. If you are soft you will not survive in that place.

I am sick of reading about that scam artist. Send her home on next plane please. Lets have a collection to pay her fare.

rkeane

We don't need to organise a collection, plans are already in place to remove Ms Izevbekhai from the country very soon.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

The Raven.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fair enough. However, I would like to hear the in-laws’ side of the story. I am curious as to why they haven’t come forward to refute her allegations.

By far the primary factor that determines whether a daughter undergoes FGM is the wishes of her parents. For instance, this article shows how Ethiopia has achieved dramatic reductions in the prevalence of FGM over the last decade. Although 80 percent of Ethiopian women were circumcised in 2000, educational initiatives have challenged the idea that FGM is a "cultural tradition" that mothers should pass on to their daughters. As a consequence, only 38 percent of women now have FGM performed on their daughters— meaning that the number of women undergoing FGM will be more than halved in the space of one generation. This is a major accomplishment, but it also shows the huge role that African mothers have in determining whether or not their daughters are "cut."

It is encouraging to know that the practise of FGM is being addressed in Ethiopia, a country that had nearly the highest rate of FGM, but they still have a long way to go. In Nigeria instances of FGM would appear to be considerably lower in general, but in some areas it is as high as 90%. It is an uphill struggle to eradicate as practitioners make a living out of it, and families rely on income from child brides, who would not be considered acceptable without having had FGM. Strangely, UNICEF statistics show that in Nigeria, FGM is twice as common among more educated parents.

http://www.unfpa.org/news/news.cfm?ID=1010

As regards the Izevbekhai case, I see that the fallout from the Would You Believe programme has taken root. It doesn’t take long before their real agenda is exposed. Who would have envisaged a scene like this in Ireland?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USmpR2Vy_9c

Nigerians protest ambassador’s FGM denials

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/91875

The Raven.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Of course she was screaming but I do not think that makes her any less brave for what she underwent. The process itself has made here braver and tougher. In a place as harsh as Africa to be brave and tough is no bad thing. If you are soft you will not survive in that place.

Bravery is not a characteristic that can be attributed to an infant. Neither is it possible for an infant to give consent :rolleyes:!! Therefore it is a violation of human rights!

rkeane

The Raven. wrote: »

Bravery is not a characteristic that can be attributed to an infant. Neither is it possible for an infant to give consent :rolleyes:!! Therefore it is a violation of human rights!

And this has exactly what to do with the case of Ms Izevbekhai? The fact is she can't even offer any proof that the kid even existed...her case is in free-fall. Only those with an agenda offer her support, she will be gone from here soon.

The Raven.

O'Coonassa, thanks for the link. I have read the article and I agree that any form of mutilation without the person’s consent, in any country is unacceptable.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

If poor people know that the rich people will be overcome by sympathy for the plight of little girls then it's only natural that they will use FGM as a ticket to the place where all the money is. But it's hardly brutal is it if they do the same thing in the western hospitals? Western people are civilised right?

Male circumcision has not been part of Irish culture, but the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (NCCRI), have being trying to make provisions for it in order to accommodate the growing cultural/ethnic diversity. Their reasoning is to avoid the dangers of back-street circumcision. But don’t shoot the messenger. Take it up with them. However, the October budget in 2008 withdrew their funding and they are now merged into the Department of Justice.

I don’t wish to discuss it any further here, as it is off topic, whereas FGM is one of the focal points of the Izevbekhai case.

rkeane

The Raven. wrote: »

O'Coonassa, thanks for the link. I have read the article and I agree that any form of mutilation without the person’s consent, in any country is unacceptable.



Male circumcision has not been part of Irish culture, but the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (NCCRI), have being trying to make provisions for it in order to accommodate the growing cultural/ethnic diversity. Their reasoning is to avoid the dangers of back-street circumcision. But don’t shoot the messenger. Take it up with them. However, the October budget in 2008 withdrew their funding and they are now merged into the Department of Justice.

I don’t wish to discuss it any further here, as it is off topic, whereas FGM is one of the focal points of the Izevbekhai case.[/QUOTE]

But she hasn't got a case...she has lost every stage of this saga, and that was based on forged docs. She hasn't even got a dam legal team yet...I think that speaks volumes about her lack of credibility.

I'm looking forward to the end of this rediculous case.

The Raven.

rkeane wrote: »

But she hasn't got a case...she has lost every stage of this saga, and that was based on forged docs. She hasn't even got a dam legal team yet...I think that speaks volumes about her lack of credibility.

I'm not disputing that. Read my other posts.

rkeane

oops I had a few 2 many last night, sry!

mealone43

The Raven. wrote: »

O'Coonassa, thanks for the link. I have read the article and I agree that any form of mutilation without the person’s consent, in any country is unacceptable.



Male circumcision has not been part of Irish culture, but the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (NCCRI), have being trying to make provisions for it in order to accommodate the growing cultural/ethnic diversity. quote]
Well now we have to change to suit the immigrants?????? over my dead body. They should conform to our customs and traditions or else go back to their homes.:mad::mad:

O'Coonassa

mealone43 wrote: »

Well now we have to change to suit the immigrants?????? over my dead body. They should conform to our customs and traditions or else go back to their homes.:mad::mad:

So what you're suggesting is that the Jewish and Islamic communities should be prevented from following their religions. Good luck to you with that, it's been going on here since 1232AD, maybe you'd be better off just picking on Africans?

mealone43

O'Coonassa wrote: »

So what you're suggesting is that the Jewish and Islamic communities should be prevented from following their religions. Good luck to you with that, it's been going on here since 1232AD, maybe you'd be better off just picking on Africans?

I never mentioned any religious groups but you did. But to answer that, I have no difficulties with any group as long as they adapt to our culture and customs. I worked in a Muslim country and had to obey their rules and so they must abide by mine. No argument on that. They dont like it, they can go home. No difficulty buying tickets here in this democracy.

O'Coonassa

mealone43 wrote: »

I have no difficulties with any group as long as they adapt to our culture and customs.

Indeed and which presumably would involve any group not slicing bits off of childrens genitals? Or do you think that is all OK unless it's Africans doing it whereupon it becomes Evil?