Pamela Izevbekhai - Should She Be Deported?

marcsignal

I'd like to see this 'document' scrutinized by the Nigerian Embassy.

fraz1971

It still seems such an extraordinary amount of effort just to stay here. I have never seen anything like it. No doubt she will face serious consequences if/when she loses. I have often wondered if the pair of them had further scams in mind, like helping other fake 'refugees'.

It wouldn't surprise me. They certainly knew how to locate a people trafficker to get Pamela into Ireland.

One more point. When Tony was stopped at the border and deported. RAR said that he had not intended to stay in the state because he had too much to lose with his business. They failed to inform us that he was here because he had tried to claim asylum in the UK. If he hadn't intended to leave his business in Nigeria, then what would he have done if Pamela was granted leave to stay?

marcsignal

fraz1971 wrote: »

If he hadn't intended to leave his business in Nigeria, then what would he have done if Pamela was granted leave to stay?

He'd have been suddenly overcome with a desire to 'keep his family together' (in Ireland of course) and apply for asylum here too, on that basis, i'd guess sorry, bet 100Euro

ParkRunner

Personally I don't see how the production of this document which appartently shows that Elizabeth existed and died will have any bearing on the Supreme Court case, as the decision she is challenging was made on the basis that Elizabeth did indeed exist anyway and did die as a result of blood loss following FGM.

HollyB

EF wrote: »

Personally I don't see how the production of this document which appartently shows that Elizabeth existed and died will have any bearing on the Supreme Court case, as the decision she is challenging was made on the basis that Elizabeth did indeed exist anyway and did die as a result of blood loss following FGM.

It could be used as a delaying tactic, though, and to manufacture more support for Pamela, which could well have been waning since the revelation that the papers were false. I'd say that LTS know that a court victory is unlikely so they may be counting on drumming up a lot of support for the family in order to exert pressure on the Minister to allow them leave to remain.

marcsignal

HollyB wrote: »

I'd say that LTS know that a court victory is unlikely so they may be counting on drumming up a lot of support for the family in order to exert pressure on the Minister to allow them leave to remain.

and imo, a counter petition should be organised, to lobby the Minister, to send her packing.

If such a petition were to come into the frame, i would sign it.

Mushera

Does anybody really think that this new "evidence" will have a bearing on the case. The fact remains that the original documents submitted were forged and have been proven to be so. Surely the Supreme Court will not allow the case to continue. It beggars belief really and makes a mokery of our judicial system.

Then, again the fact that this woman has been allowed to remain in this country for so long is in itself incredible. I think, however, that the government have to win this case. By all accounts the rest of the European Union is watching to see the outcome.

fraz1971

Does anyone find it strange that a child who is going to die of blood loss gets referred to a different hospital and doctor without being stabilised? Surely it's an A&E case if an infant is bleeding profusely. Referral is something outpatients go through?

Before anyone says 'but this is Nigeria'. The best of services are available to people with money to pay for them. Apparently Pamela is a well off banker.

HollyB

marcsignal wrote: »

and imo, a counter petition should be organised, to lobby the Minister, to send her packing.

If such a petition were to come into the frame, i would sign it.

I don't think he needs lobbying, he seems to have come to that conclusion himself. Any counter petition would be one of support for the Minister of Justice, letting him know that those who sign think that he made the right call.

Mushera

Of course this is a complete fabrication. The whole thing is a lesson in steel determination. They will never give up. They have set their sights on staying here and no matter what it takes they will do. From Ireland's point of view the case cannot succeed. I would, however, be very surprised to see the right thing being done and this criminal being deported.

The Raven.

fraz1971 wrote: »

The Raven. wrote: »

fraz1971 wrote: »

Come on people. How do you not know where your child died?

Excuse me ?? Who are you addressing here?

Anyone who is involved in the discussion really.

I thought so. Have you read all 175 pages of the thread? I think you will find that most people posting here are under no illusions as regards Ms. Izevbekhai’s lack of credibility, and are fully aware of the details of the case, including the bogus claims etc.

fraz1971

I thought so. Have you read all 175 pages of the thread? I think you will find that most people posting here are under no illusions as regards Ms. Izevbekhai’s lack of credibility, and are fully aware of the details of the case, including the bogus claims etc.

You've read all the pages? You must remember that albeit most of the posters realise Pamela is a fraud. Many people who are not members will read the posts. It was to anyone who still believes the lies.

The Raven.

fraz1971 wrote: »

You've read all the pages? You must remember that albeit most of the posters realise Pamela is a fraud. Many people who are not members will read the posts. It was to anyone who still believes the lies.

Yes, of course I have. I wouldn't be posting on a thread without full knowledge of its history. But thanks for the clarification.

ParkRunner

HollyB wrote: »

It could be used as a delaying tactic, though, and to manufacture more support for Pamela, which could well have been waning since the revelation that the papers were false. I'd say that LTS know that a court victory is unlikely so they may be counting on drumming up a lot of support for the family in order to exert pressure on the Minister to allow them leave to remain.

Given the doubt which has been cast over any 'official' Nigerian document I certainly can't see support for Pamela and her 2 children growing. There will always be a group of die hard supporters for her but permission to remain is out of the question in this case. It would take a weak Minister for Justice in my opinion to have his own decision upheld in the court only to turn around and grant permission to remain.

AlekSmart

HollyB`s point here is most important....

Some newspapers now seem to be under the impression that the mysterious Adrian Izevbekhai is not actually Pamela's biological son after all; he's Tony's son, and Pamela helped to bring him up... of course, that contradicts the article the Irish Times published in January. Pamela is quoted as saying: "Everything was fine. We dated, got married and had our son, Adrian."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...059654508.htm

And then we have.......

Izevbekhai and her husband Tony, who lives in Nigeria following his deportation from the UK when his application for refugee status failed, have now hired a lawyer in Nigeria who is examining the validity of these documents.

Solicitors in Dublin have been provided with documentation in which it is claimed that Elizabeth existed and died from complications of FGM.

At this stage in the proceedings the status of Pamela Izevbekhai and both of her daughters is virtually irrelevant to this topic.

What is FAR more important now is to be very forensic about the stuff that is being brought forward by her representatives.

Indeed,the very identities of these representatives requires a smidgin of concentration.

Who are the "Solicitors in Dublin" ?
Are they instructing senior counsel in this matter ?
What is the Status of the Nigerian Lawyer ?

The most important element still remains unaddressed...The identity and whereabouts of Pamela and Tony Izevbakhai`s Trafficker.

This latest blurring of the lines regarding the forgotten Doctors,mistaken Hospitals and "equivalent attestations of death" reminds me very much of what one hears when an outsider happens upon a disagreement between "families".

The first defence method is to produce a vast array of chaff and throw it around in order to mystify those attempting to bring order onto the chaos.....and I can see it succeeding too !!!

Vinegar Hill

marcsignal wrote: »

He'd have been suddenly overcome with a desire to 'keep his family together' (in Ireland of course) and apply for asylum here too, on that basis, i'd guess sorry, bet 100Euro

He would not have to apply for asylum. If Pamala was granted asylum then she could bring the entire family over here in order to keep the family together. I suppose the marauding In-Laws could come in as well.

opo

AlekSmart wrote: »

What is FAR more important now is to be very forensic about the stuff that is being brought forward by her representatives.

You need go no further than http://www.letthemstay.org for more holes in the saga.

An extract from an article written by Antonia Leslie on the site contains the following nugget:

I first met Pamela in February 2006 when I was doing a story about her plight for this newspaper. I was given the birth cert and a death cert of her first-born daughter Elizabeth, who died as a result of female circumcision.

We know the death cert is a fake. We are told that the doctor demanded money for the real cert. Subsequently, we have been told that Pammie is running around trying to prove Elizabeth existed.

Why?

Is the birth cert not real either?

Isn't that worthy of an explanation? Antonia? Supporters?

Is there anybody out there??

blueythebear

AlekSmart wrote: »

HollyB`s point here is most important....

And then we have.......

At this stage in the proceedings the status of Pamela Izevbekhai and both of her daughters is virtually irrelevant to this topic.

What is FAR more important now is to be very forensic about the stuff that is being brought forward by her representatives.

Indeed,the very identities of these representatives requires a smidgin of concentration.

Who are the "Solicitors in Dublin" ?
Are they instructing senior counsel in this matter ?
What is the Status of the Nigerian Lawyer ?

The most important element still remains unaddressed...The identity and whereabouts of Pamela and Tony Izevbakhai`s Trafficker.

This latest blurring of the lines regarding the forgotten Doctors,mistaken Hospitals and "equivalent attestations of death" reminds me very much of what one hears when an outsider happens upon a disagreement between "families".

The first defence method is to produce a vast array of chaff and throw it around in order to mystify those attempting to bring order onto the chaos.....and I can see it succeeding too !!!

Last time in the Supreme Court, the solicitors who had asked to come off record were based down the country somewhere. As this is a Supreme Court matter, there would most definitely be a Senior Counsel (Mel Chrystle was the Senior Counsel at the last court date).

"Solicitors based in Dublin" suggest that new solicitors are definitely on board.

In terms of this new evidence, unfortunately this will delay the matter yet again as the State will need to be given the opportunity to respond to this new information/evidence on affidavit. Unfortunately, it could mean that the Supreme Court case will have to be heard in its' entirety rather than be struck out or withdrawn...

Mushera

What did I say before about steel determination. I think this woman is here to stay. She and her husband are determined to gain EU residency and nothing will stand in their way. Surely it cannot be that we have to suffer this woman ad nauseum for an indefinate period of time.

paddy147

She should be deported,shes a bare faced liar and is now trying to cover her tracks by more unfounded and false claims.And shes also using up my tax and your tax to stay here while shes tries to stay in the country by any means possible.

Im fed up with all this crap in this country.These asylum seekers get away with murder in this country,they get everything handed to them on a plate,the minute the land in this country,yet the hard working genuine irish person get bent over and fcuked over by the govermneant if they do anything wrong in their lives.

She used false/fake documents so noiw she must be kicked out,regardless of having kids or not.

Mushera

blueythebear wrote: »

Last time in the Supreme Court, the solicitors who had asked to come off record were based down the country somewhere. As this is a Supreme Court matter, there would most definitely be a Senior Counsel (Mel Chrystle was the Senior Counsel at the last court date).

"Solicitors based in Dublin" suggest that new solicitors are definitely on board.

In terms of this new evidence, unfortunately this will delay the matter yet again as the State will need to be given the opportunity to respond to this new information/evidence on affidavit. Unfortunately, it could mean that the Supreme Court case will have to be heard in its' entirety rather than be struck out or withdrawn...

However, the original death cert submitted was an admitted forgery. Is it up to the Irish state to ensure that the new cert is legitimate. It seems crazy. If I went to court with bogus documents, I dont think I would be afforded the time to keep providing fresh evidence. At any rate, even if these documents are legit, FGM is not a ground for asylum. Does anyone know how long it would take before the case would be heard if it has to be heard???

AlekSmart

What did I say before about steel determination. I think this woman is here to stay. She and her husband are determined to gain EU residency and nothing will stand in their way. Surely it cannot be that we have to suffer this woman ad nauseum for an indefinate period of time.

Yes indeed Mushera,I am inclined to agree with your summation.

Pamela and her advisors have managed to get the swing of things "a l`Irelandaise" and they quite accurately read how the natives have a very low span of attention (apologies to Paul Simon).

For Pamela Izevbekhai and the LTS grouping its now just a matter of more delaying and yet more interminable checking of material which is largely uncheckable....:mad:

Lets see who the "new Solicitors" are, as in Irish Legal Circles the name can reveal so much

The Raven.

On Thursday the case will be briefly mentioned before the Supreme Court and there may be a change of solicitors representing Izevbekhai as her previous solicitor Gabriel Toolan will step down following her admission regarding false documentation. Her new solicitor will then seek an adjournment.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/apr/26/izevbekhai-lawyers-obtain-death-cert/

'briefly mentioned' ?? I understood that the Government was going to present 4 pieces of evidence re fake documents? Or have they already done that? I don't seem to remember that actually happening.

The Tribune is saying that 'there may be a change of solicitors representing Izevbekhai'. Yet just before that the article states:

Solicitors in Dublin have been provided with documentation in which it is claimed that Elizabeth existed and died from complications of FGM.

So she has new Dublin solicitors, but they only 'may' be representing her in court next Thursday :rolleyes:??

'Then they will seek an adjournment.'

More delay and stalling! How many solicitors does it take to change a ligh bulb :rolleyes:??

Meanwhile, who is paying for the new-found 'Nigerian solicitor'?

jmcc

blueythebear wrote: »

In terms of this new evidence, unfortunately this will delay the matter yet again as the State will need to be given the opportunity to respond to this new information/evidence on affidavit. Unfortunately, it could mean that the Supreme Court case will have to be heard in its' entirety rather than be struck out or withdrawn...

Or could the Supreme Court decide that the submission of forged documentation is so fundamental that the case should be dismissed?

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

The Raven. wrote: »

Meanwhile, who is paying for the new-found 'Nigerian solicitor'?

The answer is, surprisingly, in the Sunday Tribune article:
"Izevbekhai and her husband Tony, who lives in Nigeria following his deportation from the UK when his application for refugee status failed, have now hired a lawyer in Nigeria who is examining the validity of these documents."

I think that the State's affidavits re the forged documentation and the identity of the doctor have already been submitted and accepted by the SC 'de bene esse' (for the time being). It is up to PI to provide evidence that would refute these affidavits. Since PI has already admitted that the documentation was forged, the State wins that round. PI also has to reply to the ECHR by 29th April regarding the submission of forged documentation.

Regards...jmcc

blueythebear

Mushera wrote: »

However, the original death cert submitted was an admitted forgery. Is it up to the Irish state to ensure that the new cert is legitimate. It seems crazy. If I went to court with bogus documents, I dont think I would be afforded the time to keep providing fresh evidence. At any rate, even if these documents are legit, FGM is not a ground for asylum. Does anyone know how long it would take before the case would be heard if it has to be heard???

It's not up to PI to prove that documents are genuine. THe State's evidence is that previous documents are forged and therefore Elizabeth never existed. It's fatal to her case if she never existed. It's not necessarily fatal if there were forged documents (if she didn't know they were forged). PI must prove that Elizabeth existed at this point, rather than prove the veracity of the previous documents.

It should be noted that the Supreme COurt have not ruled that the documents were forged (despite that PI has said this in the media) as of yet and this is why she is being given the opportunity to refute them.

The FGM as grounds for asylum argument has been done to death here. It's clear that FGM is a ground for asylum, if it's being forced on a person and internal relocation is not available (which admittedly it usually is unless there are exceptional individual circumstances).

Not sure what the situation is with a hearing date in the SC. It normally takes a year or two for a case to come up so I'm told. I'd say this one will probably be fast-tracked if a hearing is to happen.

Mushera

At any rate it looks like she is not going back to Nigeria.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

blueythebear

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's very difficult to comment on the case as we don't know on what grounds she is appealing. I would have thought that the existence of elizabeth was brought up by the State in order to render the whole case unstateable. If she did not exist, the SC Appeal is rendered moot.

PI's credibilty doesn't really factor into a dismissal of the case in these circumstances, although it's highly relevant for any further determinations as to her immigration status.

You're spot on in saying that she did not get asylum and does not qualify for asylum and the existence or non-existence of Elizabeth is irrelevant to that question. However if it is proven that Elizabeth does exist then the SC Appeal will have to proceed to hearing rather than be dsmissed.

She'll most likely fail in the appeal anyway, mainly because the grounds for taking a judicial review are quite restricted, especially where the decisionmaker has discretion (i believe she judicially reviewed (in the High Court) the Ministers' decision to not allow her to apply for subsidiary protection in circumstances where the Minister has discretion to make whatever decision he wishes. This SUpreme Court case is an appeal from the decision not ot grant her judicial review).

On top of this, the grounds for appealing a high court decision are also quite restrictive. What I;m saying is : that the SC Appeal is most likely based on a pretty technical point of law. The State have come out with the forged documents issue to avoid arguing the technical legal points as these legal points would be moot if Elizabeth never existed.

It's the logical thing for the State to do if their aim is to get rid of the SC case quickly and have her deported. It's sad for her kids that it's come to this but it's clear that they still have some money (if they're hiring a Nigerian Lawyer) to their name so they won't be likely to be living in poverty in Nigeria...

Mushera

Blueythebear, you seem to have a good handle on the situation!! Is there any chance in your opinion that PI will be deported in the not too distant future? This time next year will she still be an issue and taking up court time? If there is an order to deport issued, who is to say that she will not go into hiding again. It would appear that you can get lots of places by simply refusing to adhere to the laws of the land. We are too soft in Ireland but I believe that this will change - it has to for all our sakes.