Uniteds Current Squad (Ronaldo, Nani etc etc)

Sqaull20

deisedevil wrote: »

Don't agree with that, then show me who's better right now?

Kaka...

He can do everything Ronaldo can do, while having a much more advanced football brain and has world class pace...

They have met each other a few times, as great players do and Kaka has come out on top...

Occasion in my mind is when Brazil faced Portugal at the emirates, Ronaldo did what he usually does in big games, lost the head and started doing tricks in the first minute like he did against Milan twice..

Simao came on for him in the 70th minute and scored twice...

Dunphy really gave it to him that night...

"Over-hyped player, put Fabregas in his place and it's over".

Ironically Fabregas had the chance and sent Milan packing

deisedevil

Sqaull20 wrote: »

Kaka...

He can do everything Ronaldo can do, while having a much more advanced football brain and has world class pace...

They have met each other a few times, as great players do and Kaka has come out on top...

Occasion in my mind is when Brazil faced Portugal at the emirates, Ronaldo did what he usually does in big games, lost the head and started doing tricks in the first minute like he did against Milan twice..

Simao came on for him in the 70th minute and scored twice...

Dunphy really gave it to him that night...



Ironically Fabregas had the chance and sent Milan packing

Have a look at what I asked: Originally Posted by deisedevil
Don't agree with that, then show me who's better right NOW?


And you gave your answer in relation to LAST season.

Also even Dunphy has admitted he is much improved THIS season.

I still haven't seen anyone come up with a decent reason as to why they think he is not the best in the world right NOW and who is?

PHB

Sqaull20 wrote: »

Kaka...

He can do everything Ronaldo can do, while having a much more advanced football brain and has world class pace...

First off, he's a central midfielder, of course he has a better footballing brain. That said, Ronaldo is clearly a much better finisher and header of the ball.
Also, are you actually suggesting Ronaldo doesn't have world class pace?

They have met each other a few times, as great players do and Kaka has come out on top...

No doubt that Kaka has outperformed Ronaldo the three times they have played each other. That said, it's not like they were competing with each other directly, it's not like Fabregas vs. Kaka when they are both in the middle.

Ronaldo is better than Kaka in a league.
Kaka has been better than Ronaldo in the CL last year, and the year before too. This year, Kaka hasn't really been that great in the CL. Ronaldo is the top scorer.

Sqaull20

Kaka is quicker than ronaldo, so he has world class pace..

Kaka is overall alot better imo, and if I was a manager and had the choice of either Kaka or Ronaldo it would be Kaka...

Ronaldo might score more, but that doesnt mean he is better, Ronaldo is united's main taker, now dont go saying he's your orthodox right winger, because he's not..He plays in the almost the same position as Henry did when Bergkamp and Pires were there...

Kaka is an accelerator of the game and isnt so system bound imo, he plays in a Milan team that are very poor on the wings and up top, meaning he has to nearly always grab the game and do it himself...

I have yet to see Ronaldo score ( besides a free kick ) a truly special goal that only a few in the world can score, thats why I prefer Kaka..

PHB

Sorry, even if Kaka is faster than Ronaldo, it's only slightly, and Ronaldo has 'world class pace', in that most people in the league can't keep up with him, infact very few can.

Ronaldo might score more, but that doesn't mean he is better? Ronaldo scoring penalties and free kicks, even if you took those away, he's still outscored Kaka for the last two seasons.

I never claimed he's an orthodox right winger.

AC Milan are a crap team now? Last season, imo, the main reason that Kaka was better than Ronaldo, was because Milans defence was top class, and Kaka had to beat Fletcher, Heinze and an unfit Vidic.

More to his game you say?

Kaka is a better passer
Kaka has better vision
Kaka is more of a big game player
Kaka and Ronaldo are just as fast, and if Kaka is faster, it's only very slightly
Ronaldo is as good, if not better as a dribbler
Ronaldo is a better finisher
Ronaldo is a better header of the ball
Ronaldo takes top class penalties
Ronaldo takes top class free kicks

Are any of those statements unfair? Don't think so.

As I've said, Ronaldo is better in the league than Kaka by some distance. Kaka last year was better than Ronaldo in the CL by some distance.

If I had the choice between Ronaldo or Kaka, if it was for the league, I think you'd be stupid not to pick Ronaldo, if it was the CL final, you'd be stupid not to pick Kaka.

deisedevil

Sqaull20 wrote: »

Kaka is quicker than ronaldo, so he has world class pace..

Kaka is overall alot better imo, and if I was a manager and had the choice of either Kaka or Ronaldo it would be Kaka...

Ronaldo might score more, but that doesnt mean he is better, Ronaldo is united's main taker, now dont go saying he's your orthodox right winger, because he's not..He plays in the almost the same position as Henry did when Bergkamp and Pires were there...

Kaka is an accelerator of the game and isnt so system bound imo, he plays in a Milan team that are very poor on the wings and up top, meaning he has to nearly always grab the game and do it himself...

I have yet to see Ronaldo score ( besides a free kick ) a truly special goal that only a few in the world can score, thats why I prefer Kaka..

First time I have seen a few decent reasons as to who is a better player right now.
If Kaka is quicker than Ronaldo then it can't be by much, otherwise he should go for the 100 sprint. Ronaldo has blistering pace and theres no great difference there.
Ronaldo has scored some great goals but maybe not as many as Kaka, he makes up for it with his free kicks and the amount of goals he scores.
It's not Ronaldo's fault that he's in a team that are playing better than Milan right now. Are FIFA going to decide that because Man Utd seem stronger than Milan right now that Ronaldos performances don't hold as much weight?

You feel Kaka is the better player but do you think Kaka will get player of the year?

Memnoch

I guess it depends on your definition of a great player.

What is it that makes a player great? I can only define this from my opinion so that is what I will do.

For me. A great player is someone who can produce a moment of magic. Something purely inspirational that will undo the very best of opposition. A great player is someone who has strength of charecter and leadership, who dictates how a game of football can be played.

For me, the litmus test of a great player is simple. When two top teams are playing against each other, it is the great players that make the difference between the teams.

By these criteria, in my estimation, Ronaldo is not a great player yet.

Let me give you an example. Chelsea vs Barca from a couple of years ago. The one that Chelsea won 4-3 at home or something. How many people here can forget the goal that Ronaldinho scored? I believe it was from the edge of the box. A chelsea defender, Carvalho I think was standing not two feet from him and he basically two poked the ball to curl around the defender and into the top left corner. It was just wow. Words fail to describe what an amazing goal it was. And as far as stakes and pressure goes, it doesn't get much higher than Barca vs Chelsea in the Champions league.

How many such beautiful memorable moments has Ronaldinho provided time and time again?

What about Kaka? I come back again to Milan vs United. In that game, Kaka was the one who really put United to the sword. He was the difference, the reason Milan won and united lost, his goals were pretty damn good too. Where was Ronaldo. You say that was last season. Fine. If this season has been his season of greatness, give me one example where he has undone top opposition with some magic?

What about Zidane? Do I even need to talk about what this man has done? Be it for Real Madrid, or France at the very zenith of footballing compitition?

Even Messi to a lesser extent. I remember his amazing curling chip from an impossible angle that he scored in the Copa America a few months ago in the quarter or semi-final, not to mention countless other magical moments.

I honestly don't care how many times a player runs rings around Derby or middlesburough or even Manchester City for that matter. I really don't give a crap how many premiereship goals they have scored. Owen has 42 international goals to his name, and while he is a very good player, I don't consider him to be one of the world's greats. Maybe one of Englands greats. Like Robbie Keane is one of Ireland's greats, but a world great?

I'll repeat this one more time. In my opinion: A great player is someone who is the difference between two top teams going toe to toe in a match in which everything is on the line. A great player is one who can undoe the very toughest opponent with a moment of brilliance that no one can do anything about.

For me, every player who is considered GREAT, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Zidane, Pele, has easily passed the above litmus test. Ronaldo has not. When he does, then I'll accept him as a great player. Not before.

Your own personal criteria for judging "greatness" might be different.

PHB

For me, great players do both. Win the big games, but also drag their teams to the league.

Kaka has done one, Ronaldo has done the other, Messi has done neither, but has come close in both.
Until Kaka drags Milan to a league, there will always be questions over him.
Until Ronaldo drags United to the CL, there will always be questions over him.

deisedevil

Memnoch wrote: »

Your own personal criteria for judging "greatness" might be different.

If your addressing me then you have got it all very wrong. I have said many times that he is not one of the greatest players ever and has still some way to go. ( I think he's well capable when you look at what he has achieved by the age of 23)
I did say though that I think he is currently performing better and more consistently than anyone else in the world in the last 12 months. Because of that he is right now the best player in the world, without a doubt in my opinion.

Memnoch

PHB wrote: »

For me, great players do both. Win the big games, but also drag their teams to the league.

Kaka has done one, Ronaldo has done the other, Messi has done neither, but has come close in both.
Until Kaka drags Milan to a league, there will always be questions over him.
Until Ronaldo drags United to the CL, there will always be questions over him.

Here is where I think you (and most Ronaldo fans) are being unfair. A great player can single handedly undo the very best teams in the world, but he can't single handedly win a league. Because even the best can't win every single match for their team.

I think Man Utd. this season are undoubedtly one of the best teams in the world right now (if not the best). They have so many good players in so many positions and so much back-up. Ronaldo has scored a lot of goals from them, yes. He's helped them win a lot of matches, also true, but you can't discount the achievements of the rest of the team.

United have a solid defence, a great goalkeeper (I do consider Van der Saar to be one of the great goalkeepers around). They have Roney up front, anderson in the middle, scholes, tevez, nani. So many class Players.

Milan are a sharp contrast to that.

If you put Kaka in United and Ronaldo in Milan do you honestly believe that United would perform less well and Milan would suddenly win their league?

I would concede that Ronaldo is probably one of the best wingers playing right now, though I would put Messi ahead of him.

Memnoch

deisedevil wrote: »

If your addressing me then you have got it all very wrong. I have said many times that he is not one of the greatest players ever and has still some way to go. ( I think he's well capable when you look at what he has achieved by the age of 23)
I did say though that I think he is currently performing better and more consistently than anyone else in the world in the last 12 months. Because of that he is right now the best player in the world, without a doubt in my opinion.

The best winger in the world? Maybe.

Best player?

Not until he makes the difference between United and Barca or Portugal and Germany/arg/brazil/ (even crappy england)

deisedevil

Memnoch wrote: »

The best winger in the world? Maybe.

Best player?

Not until he makes the difference between United and Barca or Portugal and Germany/arg/brazil/ (even crappy england)

Ok, who do you think will win the upcoming FIFA player of the year? Be realistic.

Memnoch

deisedevil wrote: »

Ok, who do you think will win the upcoming FIFA player of the year? Be realistic.

I don't know, but the Titanic won 9 Oscars

LegacyUser

PHB wrote: »

Sorry, even if Kaka is faster than Ronaldo, it's only slightly, and Ronaldo has 'world class pace', in that most people in the league can't keep up with him, infact very few can.

Ronaldo might score more, but that doesn't mean he is better? Ronaldo scoring penalties and free kicks, even if you took those away, he's still outscored Kaka for the last two seasons.

I never claimed he's an orthodox right winger.

AC Milan are a crap team now? Last season, imo, the main reason that Kaka was better than Ronaldo, was because Milans defence was top class, and Kaka had to beat Fletcher, Heinze and an unfit Vidic.

More to his game you say?

Kaka is a better passer
Kaka has better vision
Kaka is more of a big game player
Kaka and Ronaldo are just as fast, and if Kaka is faster, it's only very slightly
Ronaldo is as good, if not better as a dribbler
Ronaldo is a better finisher
Ronaldo is a better header of the ball
Ronaldo takes top class penalties
Ronaldo takes top class free kicks

Are any of those statements unfair? Don't think so.

As I've said, Ronaldo is better in the league than Kaka by some distance. Kaka last year was better than Ronaldo in the CL by some distance.

If I had the choice between Ronaldo or Kaka, if it was for the league, I think you'd be stupid not to pick Ronaldo, if it was the CL final, you'd be stupid not to pick Kaka.

Ronaldo is a much quicker dribbler than Kaka. Ronaldo is a better finisher. Ronaldo has a better header. Ronaldo is a better set piece taker. I believe Kaka has a better footballing brain, better passer of the ball, and definitely a better big game player than Ronaldo...but don't forget Kaka has a few years ahead of Ronaldo...the kid is still only a year younger than me...22!

deisedevil

Memnoch wrote: »

I don't know, but the Titanic won 9 Oscars

Lol, Ronaldo's not about to sink anytime soon. Ah come on, you must have some idea as to who you think is likely to win it.

jesus_thats_gre

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

By who ??

Best league in the world, shows the amount of trust people put in Sky Sports commentary.

What is then? The Spannish league?

Real, top of of the table with a record of something like won 8 games and lost 8 games up until recently. Barca 7/8 points behind them after the last match between the 2 and still 7/8 points behind.

This sums up La Liga this season quite nicely I think:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/europeanfootball/story/0,,2266137,00.html

Real Madrid have lost eight times in 2008, yet they remain seven points ahead of a plodding Barcelona side and the rest of the chasing pack

Sid Lowe
Monday March 17, 2008
guardian.co.uk

Pepe's own goal saw Real crash to another defeat in Deportivo on Saturday. Photograph: Lalo R. Villar/AP


It's Pass-the-Parcel on the Gaza Strip, Musical Chairs in Texas, Roulette in Russia. The game no one wants to win. Like the Chuckle Brothers lugging a piano down a set of stairs, they keep talking about La Liga changing hands - to me, to you; to me, to you - only for it to end up in exactly the same place, the whole sweating, cheek blowing, side-splitting episode an exercise in futility so supreme you'd be better off playing scrabble with Jermaine Pennant. Every time someone opens the door to La Liga, someone else slams it shut again; every time Real Madrid try to offer Barça the title, their Catalan chums dash for exit like a diner in a Piccadilly sushi bar. As for the rest, they're hardly bothering to play at all.

Hay Liga as they say in Spain - there is a league. Trouble is, even if there is a league (and it looks suspiciously like there isn't) it's rubbish. A slow bicycle race. Less a sprint for the line, more Douglas Bader answering the door to the postie after a particularly heavy night on the sauce. Not so much seeking a worthy winner as the best of a bad bunch. No wonder everyone spent the whole week banging on about Julian De Guzman's promise to abstain from sex for a year if he scored against Madrid. It beats talking about the football. As Javier Clemente put it: "Madrid and Barça don't play a pepper."

On December 23, Madrid opened a seven-point lead, winning 1-0 at the Camp Nou , and prompting President Tourettes to declare: "Madrid are frightening". On Saturday night they lost 1-0 to Deportivo La Coruña, thanks to an own goal from Pepe. Which might not seem that bad - after all, Madrid have gone almost seventeen years without winning at Riazor - but for one thing: it was bad. Truly, deeply, desperately bad. A game so awful it left you whimpering for your 90 minutes back and the poor sods who actually paid-per-view demanding an €11.99 refund on the grounds that they hadn't viewed anything. A game in which Madrid didn't manage a single shot on target. A game so utterly pathetic AS's Mad Madridista Tomás Roncero declared it the "worst in Madrid's history" and Calderón was proven right: frightening? Madrid were terrifying.

Worse still, it was a game that continued a desperate run. Since their clásico victory, the absences of Ruud Van Nistelrooy, Robinho, Sergio Ramos and Wesley Sneijder have exposed Madrid's weaknesses. So too, although no one wants to admit as much, has the dip in (return to?) form of Raúl and Guti. And, however much marvellously miserable manager Bernd Schuster tries to claim that defeats are "not defeats", Madrid have been beaten eight times in 2008 - half their matches. They've lost four of their last seven in the league and only beat Recreativo and Espanyol with help from the referee.

They've spent €100m on players, none of whom are regulars; their president is busy threatening newspapers with excommunication if they mention Nicolas Cage, while insisting that he clocked Paolo Calabresi right from the start (which will be why he took him into a the dressing room afterwards) , and Schuster is at war with the world. In short, they're in crisis. Out of the Cup. Out of the Champions League. And out of the league.

Oh. Right. Yeah.

Three months later and Madrid's lead is still seven points; the same seven points it was after the derbi. Because if Madrid are bad, Barça aren't much better. Unfit, poorly organised, plodding, with Henry missing Tea - all ex-pats out here do, Thierry - and Ronaldinho missing training, Messi injured again, Edmilson fit again, lacking a killer instinct or a Plan B, they are a mess. One especially adept at snatching failure from the jaws of success, as the last four games have shown.

Against Zaragoza a terrible decision saw them escape with a win they tried to surrender. Against Atlético, they were so superior it was embarrassing but lost to el Kun. Against Villarreal they were on top but were defeated. And last night, handed yet another opportunity, they twice led against Almería and twice conceded from set-plays. Which is fair enough: why work on set-plays when Almería, a supremely well-drilled side, have only scored a third of their goals that way?

Barça have collected a solitary point out of the last nine - a run so bad that while they remain stuck puffing on the stairs, Villarreal are just two points behind. The same Villarreal who yesterday collected their first home victory in four.

And that's kind of the point. Because while Madrid and Barça have been poor, the saddest thing is that their challengers have been unable to take advantage or provide a half-decent title race. Atlético have a fantastic forward line but no defence, Villarreal panic near the summit, and Racing and Espanyol are over-achieving. Considering the problems that Sevilla have had - Antonio Puerta's death, the Dani Alves soap opera, Juande Ramos ditching them, injury to Javi Navarro and Manolo Jimenez's bizarre attempt to deny Luis Fabiano goals - it's a wonder they're this close. And, as for Valencia, the club that should have pushed for the title, they're a joke, ruined by a fat bloke with a rubbish 'tache: Juan Soler.

Last week Soler finally left the Valencia presidency on the grounds of illness. He was right too: he's made Valencia sick. Very sick. This is the man who sacked Quique Sanchez Flores and replaced him with Ronald Koeman with the team four points off the top and saw them brilliantly extend that gap to 26, just six off the relegation zone; the man who has created a hive of in-fighting and bitterness, ending up in court against his captain; the same man who in his three years since taking over a club that had just won two league titles and the Uefa Cup, has had seven coaches, seven technical directors, three medical chiefs, €187m worth of players and no trophies whatsoever. Sometimes you get exactly what you deserve. And sometimes, as Madrid look set to prove, you get rather more.

Results: Recreativo 4-2 Murcia, Deportivo 1-0 Real Madrid, Betis 1-2 Athletic (suspended in the 69th minute after Athletic goalkeeper Armando got hit by a bottle thrown from the stands. I repeat, a this was no isolated incident, but this time Betis fans - the ones that didn't have punch-ups with the police - should be applauded for grabbing the idiot who threw the bottle and handing him over to the stewards), Valencia 1-2 Sevilla, Villarreal 2-0 Zaragoza, Getafe 2-1 Racing (With some quality lunacy from Toño and a great goalkeeping display from Marcano, who's a centre-back), Espanyol 2-1 Mallorca (Dear God, no. The chiki-chiki, no, Valladolid 0-0 Osasuna, Almería 2-2 Barcelona, Atlético 3-0 Levante.

LegacyUser

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

By who ??

Best league in the world, shows the amount of trust people put in Sky Sports commentary.

Go on say it..."The greek league is the best league in the world":rolleyes::rolleyes:

PHB

There's no doubt in my mind that currently the premiership is the best league in the world. Not because its particuarly amazing, but because the rest are so ****.
There are still 7 god awful teams in the PL, and while I have hopes for 2-3 of them, wouldn't be sad to see the back of the rest of them.

eZe^

PHB wrote: »

Messi has done neither, but has come close in both.

I agree and disagree, he may not be as prolific in the league as Ronaldo this season, or as magical in the CL against the biggest guns as Kaka, but I do think he's closer than either of them to achieving both simultaneously. He may not be in as good form as Ronaldo this season, but with all his injury worries, when fit he has carried a struggling Barcelona team against all sorts of opposition. Just look at how abysmal their form has been since he's been injured to see how influential he has been.


Im not going to say he deserves any awards more than Ronaldo this season because he doesn't, but there are quite a few examples throughout the past 2 seasons that show he has done both.


He scored a hat trick against Madrid in a 10 man Barcelona to salvage a point. He is also joint top scorer in the champions league this season. 9 goals and 8 assists in 19 games in the league. Last year he was one of the main reasons Barca made the knock out round in the CL with his last minute goal against Werder Bremen in the away fixture in the group stages. This season he single handedly annihilated Athletico Madrid when they were still in the league title race. Look at any game where Barca have done well against a top 5 side and Messi will be there, look at where they've struggled and he'll more than likely have been absent.

Theres not much doubting he was one of the best at the Copa America last year also, scoring arguably the goal of the tournament.

He is 2 years younger than Ronaldo iswell. But again I do hold my hands up and admit that Ronaldo has performed better this season. Kaka has scored 10 goals in 18 games this season in Serie A, hardly a bad tally really. Another thing worth nothing is that Kaka was made change his position in Milan once Shevchenko left. He was made move closer to the strikers when Shev left because the of a lack of scoring with Inzaghi/ Oliviera/ Gilardino, they then started relying on him to score alot of goals.

deisedevil

eZe^ wrote: »

Kaka has scored 10 goals in 18 games this season in Serie A, hardly a bad tally really

It's actually 23 games 10 goals, 2 goals champs league. not a bad tally either.

Ronaldo is on 25 games 25 goals. 7 goals champs league.

Peyton Manning

I could be wrong, but I think 4 of those goals were penalties also.... at least I think it was Kaka...

PHB

Special goals you say...

Sqaull20

PHB wrote: »

Special goals you say...

Hardly...

It was a nice flick, but not out of this world...

Takes alot more than that for a non United fan, to say WoW

PHB

Really? Cause I was watching it in the pub, and pretty much the entire pub went wow, and then laughed almost in disbelief

RasTa

PHB wrote: »

Really? Cause I was watching it in the pub, and pretty much the entire pub went wow, and then laughed almost in disbelief

Hah, same here even the smug Pool loving barmen let out a chuckle.

Mr Alan

i'll say WOW the Ronaldo goal, cracking goal.

Im_No_Superman

Sqaull20 wrote: »

Hardly...

It was a nice flick, but not out of this world...

Takes alot more than that for a non United fan, to say WoW

How you couldnt say that wasnt a Wow goal is just strange imo. It was a beautiful bit of skill by Ronaldo. All the more impressive as the ball dropped very quickly at his feet so he had no time to think about it.

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

Really? Cause I was watching it in the pub, and pretty much the entire pub went wow, and then laughed almost in disbelief

I know that myself and a mate had a good laugh at his audacity. What more do peole want like.