Charles Widmore v. Ben Linus (spoilers 4x08 meet kevin johnson)

Killaqueen!!!

Who would win in a fight?

Nah, that's for another thread. Was just wondering what everyone thought of these two groups, and who you're backing for it to be 'the bad guys'.

From the last episode we know that the Others know/think that Widmore planted the fake boat but the captain on the boat happily said to Sayid that Ben did it. Why would you be up front to survivors of Oceanic 815 that a copy of their plane was planted miles away from the island, if it was you that did it? The captain didn't have to say anything to Sayid. Why draw attention to that fact and risk the possibility that they find out it was actually Widmore that did it?

So who do you think did it? I know we've been reminded that Ben is powerful but I can't see how he'd pull the strings to plant a fake plane. Where would he get the money? And the bodies? Ok they could be the Dharma he killed but we saw those bodies in the grave when he shot Locke. Also, the timeline would be confusing. When exactly would he have left the island to do this. I realise the submarine wasn't blown up til later on but I always got the impression that Ben rarely left the island.

So what are your opinions?

Finally, I'm wondering why Widmore himself didn't meet with Naoimi instead of the mysterious bald black dude (in the flashback of Naoimi)? Now we know Widmores behind it...perhaps he's just Widmores advisor. I thought he had something to do with Dharma at the time. What really confuses me is, if he's working for Widmore, why did he go see Hurley in the future in the mental institution? He asked Hurley 'were there survivors?'. Surely by that time he'd know that there were survivors seeing as he's reached the island.

Sad Professor

As I've said before I think this whole fake plane business is a massive red herring. The writers have been far too forthcoming about it. Now they're presenting us with two possible perpetrators. And why? To hide the island? The plane had already vanished, everyone assumed it was somewhere in the ocean, surely that was enough. The island had stayed hidden this long, why would anyone risk faking the crash? If it was discovered to be a fake it would only draw attention.

All of this I believe is designed to draw our attention away from a third possibility. The Captain asked: who has the resources to fake a plane crash? The answer I believe is - no one. The plane is real. How is that possible? I don't know yet but check out the Orchid video, two rabbits? We all assumed time travel but what if it's something else?

But wait, the pilot's body was missing a wedding ring, it had to be fake! Well as everyone pointed out at the time that was pretty weak evidence of a conspiracy. Maybe it just fell off or he took it off for a moment. Maybe Frank is just a conspiracy nut with a personal reason for wanting the plane to be fake.

Either-way, I sense a big twist coming.

Killaqueen!!!

^ Hmmm..you could be right there, but we'd be going in a totally different direction. As it is, I think there's far too much time travel in it for the common folk (=me!) so I really can't see them trying to explain how that plane in the Indian Ocean is actually Oceanic 815. If it were time travel, maybe they'll explain it but we've only a couple more short seasons to go I don't see how they could explain it. Especially if they're throwing in a whole 'parallell universe' theme too!

I honestly think that it was faked. I know that everyones going to be wary because it's been so forthcoming, and the captain and Tom have been straight with us, but I think this is just because answers need to come out soon and telling us that the plane is a fake is getting us there.

I still don't understand how Frank knew it was a fake because of the missing wedding ring. That is very weak evidence!!

cooker3

I still don't get why it's in the Indian Ocean.
I am backing Ben all the way. I knew that Jim Ramsey was evil the moment I seen him in Neighbours!

Sad Professor

cooker3 wrote: »

I still don't get why it's in the Indian Ocean.

Me neither. I mean the plane was flying north-east from Sydney to L.A. but someone supposedly goes and plants a fake plane 3000 miles north-west of 815's flight path.

cooker3

Sad Professor wrote: »

Me neither. I mean the plane was flying north-east from Sydney to L.A. but someone supposedly goes and plants a fake plane 3000 miles north-west of 815's flight path.

Only thing I can think of is if Windmore did plant plane like was claimed in 408 then they said sundra trench was deep enough so there would never be a search, maybe there is nowhere on path from sydney to LA deep enough but I think I might be stretching there

Axwell

Killaqueen!!! wrote: »

What really confuses me is, if he's working for Widmore, why did he go see Hurley in the future in the mental institution? He asked Hurley 'were there survivors?'. Surely by that time he'd know that there were survivors seeing as he's reached the island.

He was pretending to be from Oceanic so that he could get to see Hurley and ask him some questions, when he asked him about survivors hes referring to the fact that only 6 people get off the island, but he knows that a crew on a ship went there cos he sent them and Naomi but they obviously dont make it back. He hasnt reached the island (dunno what you mean by he has) and hasnt any communication with the boat he sent at the point they get to the island as the radio room was destroyed. He doesnt believe the Oceanic 6's story and is asking Hurley were there survivors - he can be referring to where his crew are,if others from the crash are actually alive on the island, or if Ben and the others are alive as he doesnt believe the Oceanic 6 story created for the media considering what he already knows himself.

kevmy

I don't think there is any time travel or space travel going on here.

It's a plant by somebody. The plane did break up over the island. We've seen this from the Losties viewpoint, the Others viewpoint and Desmonds viewpoint.

It broke into 3 pieces. As far as I could tell the one in the Sundra Trench was in pretty much one or two pieces. The cockpit section definitely seemed longer.

As for Ben having the time and resources. He had plenty. He could have told someone on the outside world relatively quickly after the crash to put this thing in motion as he probably knew Widmore would be after him.

Widmore could also have done it. If he had the time and the resources of course he could. Although to me I don't see the reason why he would. According to Ben it's to throw other people of the scent. What other people?

I reckon it was Ben who planted 815 and I reckon he planted out in the Trench to be as far away from the island as possible.

Axwell

kevmy wrote: »

Widmore could also have done it. If he had the time and the resources of course he could. Although to me I don't see the reason why he would. According to Ben it's to throw other people of the scent. What other people?

Widmore would want the island and its powers for himself,hes already interested in the black rock.By planting a fake plane he has put to end the search for the people of flight 815, the world and the media now believe the mystery is solved of what happened to Oceanic 815. Once Widmores boat finds the island he then just kills everyone on it and now its his and no one is the wiser. I would have thought it was a pretty obvious reason.

whirlwind

Just a point that might point to Bens/the Others involment in the crash. In season 1 claire had a flashback to her time in the other's camp, when she had aaron. I might be mistaken but there was a scene showing aaron in his cot and the mobile over the cot had a model oceanic plane on it. Aaron was seen looking at it. Where did the others get this model? ok perhaps it came from the plane after it crashed. But maybe they had it as part of a wider pack of infomation on the palne, i.e is flight path, passenger list etc. Infomation necessary to cause a plane crash.
Also Ben had the capacity to cause Anthony cooper to crash and bring him to the Island after the sub was blown up (although he prob could have been brough earlier)

Dont be at yourself

If the plane in the trench is fake, why & how does the captain of the freighter have the black box from it? If it's fake, it's of no use to anybody.