Patrols In Irish Air Space

Sierra Oscar

Are the RAF involved in any way, in patrolling of Irish Air Space? I hear that they are quite often, and I can find no specific evidence to say yes or no.

Maoltuile

<i>I hear that they are quite often, and I can find no specific evidence to say yes or no.</i>

Apparently the RAF intercepts of Russian bombers "off the UK coast" a few months back was actually off Donegal. HTH.

Fratton Fred

isn't there a kind of agreement that the RAF has almost a free reign over Irish airspace, in return for the protection it offers Ireland.

Steyr

Maoltuile wrote: »

<i>I hear that they are quite often, and I can find no specific evidence to say yes or no.</i>

Apparently the RAF intercepts of Russian bombers "off the UK coast" a few months back was actually off Donegal. HTH.

Was it not off Shannon?

Pathfinder

Fratton Fred wrote: »

isn't there a kind of agreement that the RAF has almost a free reign over Irish airspace, in return for the protection it offers Ireland.

Yes, there was an agreement signed after 9/11.

therecklessone

Steyr wrote: »

Was it not off Shannon?

The rather informative thread on pprune suggests that they tracked as far south as 52N10W which would have put them west of Shannon, but crucially not in sovereign Irish airspace (which IIRC corresponds to our territorial waters, i.e. 12 miles off our coast).

Any military flights in what is effectively international airspace (though delegated to the IAA for the provision of Air Navigation Services) can be conducted without filing a flight plan or talking to the relevant ATC, as long as they are conducted with "due regard" to the safety of air navigation. That applies to the RAF as much as the Russians, though I imagine the RAF would be more likely to place a call and say "we're on the way old chaps".

Pathfinder wrote:

Yes, there was an agreement signed after 9/11.

Source please.

daithicarr

Hardly of the Coast of the UK is it. but then its not uncommon for Ireland to be called part of the UK or great Britain

Steyr

Pathfinder wrote: »

Yes, there was an agreement signed after 9/11.

IIRC didnt Willie mention in the Dail one day that we would rely on them?

Steyr

daithicarr wrote: »

Hardly of the Coast of the UK is it. but then its not uncommon for Ireland to be called part of the UK or great Britain

Well technically speaking a friend of mine ( Yak Pilot ) said that UK and Irish Airspace does indeed overlap and is controlled by both Air Arms just like the UK and Irish Terriotorial Waters overlap and these are called "Grey Zones" where both Nations have Control of the Air/Sea Space.

Steyr

Update just been told by a very close mate also a pilot that the Scottish Flight Information Region covers part of the Republic Of Ireland and some of the Shannon FIR Covers Northern Ireland so the Airspace is effectively patrolled by both Nations Air Arms.

Oilrig

Steyr wrote: »

Update just been told by a very close mate also a pilot that the Scottish Flight Information Region covers part of the Republic Of Ireland and some of the Shannon FIR Covers Northern Ireland so the Airspace is effectively patrolled by both Nations Air Arms.

FIR's have nothing to do with military patrol areas or sovereignty, They are civil flight control areas.

We have no agreement with anyone to provide "protection"

OS119

Oilrig wrote: »

FIR's have nothing to do with military patrol areas or sovereignty, They are civil flight control areas.

We have no agreement with anyone to provide "protection"

indeed. Ireland has no agreements of any kind regarding Air Defence - or inded any other form of defence - with anyone.

what there is is a 'nod and a wink' informal - and very non-binding - 'agreement' that should the Irish Authorities request it, the RAF will endeavor to come to the aid of those Irish authorities.

there are however caveats to this offer of help:
(i)the RAF's fighters are based an awful long way from Dublin, and a very long way indeed from Shannon.
(ii)The security of the UK's airspace comes first, if the RAF feels it has to it will divert resources it had previously sent to Irelands' defence in order to deal with problems facing UK airspace. in short, if we are in trouble you could well find yourselves on your own
(iii) given the lack of fast jet handling experience in the IAC, RAF aircraft would be very unlikely to 'forward operate' from Irish airfields in times of crisis, meaning that cover will be thinner given that RAF aircraft will have to commute to their areas of responsibility, rather than being based in, or near, them.
(iv) the IG accepts that the Air Defence of the RoI is its' responsibility, neighbours may offer to lend a hand at need, but such help cannot be relied on as if by right. if it goes wrong, its your problem.

Zambia

Its all a mute piont really , Both Nations are in the EU and I cant really see the harm in asking the RAF to escort somebody out of Irish airspace.

Either that or the republic should buy a Military Jet capable of doing so.

Pathfinder

Oilrig wrote: »

FIR's have nothing to do with military patrol areas or sovereignty, They are civil flight control areas.

We have no agreement with anyone to provide "protection"

Who said protection ?

After 9/11 it was reported in the media the Irish govt would allow the RAF to get involved in escorting aircraft if hijacked in the republics airspace, as the republic has no aircraft to fulfill such a role.

Pathfinder

OS119 wrote: »

indeed. Ireland has no agreements of any kind regarding Air Defence - or inded any other form of defence - with anyone.

what there is is a 'nod and a wink' informal - and very non-binding - 'agreement' that should the Irish Authorities request it, the RAF will endeavor to come to the aid of those Irish authorities.

there are however caveats to this offer of help:
(i)the RAF's fighters are based an awful long way from Dublin, and a very long way indeed from Shannon.
(ii)The security of the UK's airspace comes first, if the RAF feels it has to it will divert resources it had previously sent to Irelands' defence in order to deal with problems facing UK airspace. in short, if we are in trouble you could well find yourselves on your own
(iii) given the lack of fast jet handling experience in the IAC, RAF aircraft would be very unlikely to 'forward operate' from Irish airfields in times of crisis, meaning that cover will be thinner given that RAF aircraft will have to commute to their areas of responsibility, rather than being based in, or near, them.
(iv) the IG accepts that the Air Defence of the RoI is its' responsibility, neighbours may offer to lend a hand at need, but such help cannot be relied on as if by right. if it goes wrong, its your problem.

RAF Valley in Anglesea is actually nearer to Dublin then Cork is.

FiSe

Pathfinder wrote: »

Who said protection ?

After 9/11 it was reported in the media the Irish govt would allow the RAF to get involved in escorting aircraft if hijacked in the republics airspace, as the republic has no aircraft to fulfill such a role.

...well, this is protection as well, isn't it?

But I know what you mean here

daithicarr

it seems stupid we dont even maintain a small capacity to defend our airspace, even if it is just for small scale threats like a hijacked aircraft.
Even a small handful of low cost aircraft. dont even have to be the most modern versions.
What about some jet trainer aircraft that could be armed such as the Czech Aero L-159 Alca, they cost a mere 8 million, could provide us with trained pilots in case we ever need a bigger capacity, plus offer some small amount of protection.

Fratton Fred

daithicarr wrote: »

it seems stupid we dont even maintain a small capacity to defend our airspace, even if it is just for small scale threats like a hijacked aircraft.
Even a small handful of low cost aircraft. dont even have to be the most modern versions.
What about some jet trainer aircraft that could be armed such as the Czech Aero L-159 Alca, they cost a mere 8 million, could provide us with trained pilots in case we ever need a bigger capacity, plus offer some small amount of protection.

To quote Basil Fawlty "Don't mention the war"

therecklessone

Pathfinder wrote: »

RAF Valley in Anglesea is actually nearer to Dublin then Cork is.

Pointless, the only fast jets based there are Hawk's used by 208 and 19 Squadrons for training, neither of which are tasked with intercept roles in the UK Air Defence system.

Steyr

therecklessone wrote: »

Pointless, the only fast jets based there are Hawk's used by 208 and 19 Squadrons for training, neither of which are tasked with intercept roles in the UK Air Defence system.

Yup Valley is a fast jet training base, although the Hawks can be equipped with Sidewinders and the Hawks are used mostly also for Point Defence and to play aggressor with frontline Aircraft.

OS119

Steyr wrote: »

Yup Valley is a fast jet training base, although the Hawks can be equipped with Sidewinders and the Hawks are used mostly also for Point Defence and to play aggressor with frontline Aircraft.

but as has been discussed ad nauseum, while Hawks and their ilk might look a bit nifty in the air they are utterly unable to undertake the 'fighter/intercepter' role that is being discussed. they lack the power, speed, range and systems.

a Hawk can play turning games with an F-15/F-16/Typhoon - and indeed even lock them up with AIM-9L's and a Gun Pod on occasion - but it can't chase them, it can't race them to height and it can't hang around long.

simple, unalterable fact: Hawk (indeed any of the myriad of "why don't we buy this, its only €10million a piece" aircraft can't chase an Airbus. and if it can't chase an Airbus then not only is it fcuking useless in the AD role, its worse than fcuking useless because it takes funds from other DF systems that might actually be of some use in their own fields, and it gives an illusion of cover when actually there is none.

the Hawk has a reserve AD role (that is very much last ditch, over the home airfeld stuff) because a) the RAF already owns them, and b) they would be 'free' during war-time anyway. in effect, they would be standing around doing nothing, so you might as well use them for something, anything.

that is a very different situation to actually buying them with the intention of using them in that role.

there are only two western UK airfields with the facilites - unused at present - to project fighter/interceptor resources over Ireland in the kind of manner that would be required to be able to intercept a 9/11-style event aimed at Irish targets (a staggeringly unlikely prospect in any event), and neither of them is RAF Valley.

Oilrig

Given the resources involved in a 9/11 style attack, I'd imagine that the risk assessment for such an attack here figured minimal at worst case .

Hence the lack of resources to negate such an event.

Its not as simple as "buying" a fast jet BTW...

vulcan57

OS119 wrote: »

indeed. Ireland has no agreements of any kind regarding Air Defence - or inded any other form of defence - with anyone.

what there is is a 'nod and a wink' informal - and very non-binding - 'agreement' that should the Irish Authorities request it, the RAF will endeavor to come to the aid of those Irish authorities.

there are however caveats to this offer of help:
(i)the RAF's fighters are based an awful long way from Dublin, and a very long way indeed from Shannon.
(ii)The security of the UK's airspace comes first, if the RAF feels it has to it will divert resources it had previously sent to Irelands' defence in order to deal with problems facing UK airspace. in short, if we are in trouble you could well find yourselves on your own
(iii) given the lack of fast jet handling experience in the IAC, RAF aircraft would be very unlikely to 'forward operate' from Irish airfields in times of crisis, meaning that cover will be thinner given that RAF aircraft will have to commute to their areas of responsibility, rather than being based in, or near, them.
(iv) the IG accepts that the Air Defence of the RoI is its' responsibility, neighbours may offer to lend a hand at need, but such help cannot be relied on as if by right. if it goes wrong, its your problem.

Don't forget that RAF Typhoons have supercruise capability (sustained supersonic flight). Even though they are based at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire, once airbourne they could be off the west coast of Ireland in less than Half an hour. I totally agree, though, that the Irish Government should make provisions for defence of it's own air space in the form of jet aircraft.

OS119

vulcan57 wrote: »

Don't forget that RAF Typhoons have supercruise capability (sustained supersonic flight). Even though they are based at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire, once airbourne they could be off the west coast of Ireland in less than Half an hour.

the flying time isn't the only issue - though even 30 mins is waaaayyy too long to acheive any kind of sucess in 9/11 type scenario (one that i agree is very deep in the long grass as far as probabilties go - and lets remember that in such a scenario 'success' in indicated by four civil airliners having made very large smoking holes in fields well away from population centres and with several hundred entirely innocent civilians beng dead as a direct result of a positive decision by elected politicians) its also one of problem identification, communication, analysis and decision making.

the probable chain of events for such a 'success' is as follows:

(i) Dublin ATC notice unusual activity from one or more aircraft, be that radio activity or course/height changes. they spend 5 minutes trying to contact the aircraft to get it to do what they want.

(ii) they call the duty senior official at the Department of Transport to inform him that they have an errant aircraft and to put in place whatever procedure is approriate.

(iii) he then makes two calls, one to the UK ATC to warn them and one to the Minister of Transport, or better, the Taoiseach.

(iv) the Minister of Transport/The Taoiseach sit down and make a decision to ask for RAF fighter support. they then call the British Government (civil) to ask for that suppport.

(v) the BG (civil) then order the RAF to scramble to Typhoons/Tornado F3's to investigate.

(vi) they take 30 mins (apparently) or maybe 45 mins for the F3's.

(vii) the fighters locate and then intercept the errant aircraft. they perform a rudmentory inspection to see if the AC has been damaged in some way while attempting to comminicate with the crew/bearded chappie in the pilots seat.

(viii) the fighter crews collectively decide that the aircraft is deliberately ignoring ATC instructions and is flying in a manner that suggests that a 9/11-type operation is taking place. they commincate this finding to RAF Air Command and Dublin ATC and then take up a firing position for 27mm gun and ASRAAM.

(ix) Dublin ATC and RAF Air Command communicate this finding to their respective political masters along with their recomendations and the likely risks (the number of civilians both on the ground and in the air who will die if the AC is shot down).

(x) the UK PM and Irish Taoiseach have a short conversation on the phone where the Taoiseach asks for the aircraft to be shot down, the UK PM says "are you really, really sure?" and the Taoiseach says "yes". the UK PM says "you know, that once i order the shootdown its very unlikely that either you or i could stop it if one of us were to change our minds?"

"yes, i know"

(xi) the UK PM puts the phone down and calls RAF Air Command, where he orders the shootdown.

(xii) RAF Air Command order the fighters to carry out the shootdown as best they see fit.

(xiii) the Fighter crews try to locate an area where, on current course, the debris of the Aircraft will fall on as less a populated area as possible before it reaches whatever target its going for.

(xiv) having made a decision on that location, they chase the aircraft and then fire.

(xv) the Aircraft breaks up. very large numbers of people are dead.

at minimum that took 15 steps, all of which require decison making. if anyone reading this believes those 15 steps can be carried out between the time Dublin ATC notices odd behaviour by an aircraft and the time several hundred tons of Airbus hit Dublin City Centre, turning it into a burning crater, then they are stupid, crack smokingly stupid.

oh yes, and (xvi) The Taoiseach shoots himself.

vulcan57

OS119 wrote: »

the flying time isn't the only issue - though even 30 mins is waaaayyy too long to acheive any kind of sucess in 9/11 type scenario (one that i agree is very deep in the long grass as far as probabilties go - and lets remember that in such a scenario 'success' in indicated by four civil airliners having made very large smoking holes in fields well away from population centres and with several hundred entirely innocent civilians beng dead as a direct result of a positive decision by elected politicians) its also one of problem identification, communication, analysis and decision making.

the probable chain of events for such a 'success' is as follows:

(i) Dublin ATC notice unusual activity from one or more aircraft, be that radio activity or course/height changes. they spend 5 minutes trying to contact the aircraft to get it to do what they want.

(ii) they call the duty senior official at the Department of Transport to inform him that they have an errant aircraft and to put in place whatever procedure is approriate.

(iii) he then makes two calls, one to the UK ATC to warn them and one to the Minister of Transport, or better, the Taoiseach.

(iv) the Minister of Transport/The Taoiseach sit down and make a decision to ask for RAF fighter support. they then call the British Government (civil) to ask for that suppport.

(v) the BG (civil) then order the RAF to scramble to Typhoons/Tornado F3's to investigate.

(vi) they take 30 mins (apparently) or maybe 45 mins for the F3's.

(vii) the fighters locate and then intercept the errant aircraft. they perform a rudmentory inspection to see if the AC has been damaged in some way while attempting to comminicate with the crew/bearded chappie in the pilots seat.

(viii) the fighter crews collectively decide that the aircraft is deliberately ignoring ATC instructions and is flying in a manner that suggests that a 9/11-type operation is taking place. they commincate this finding to RAF Air Command and Dublin ATC and then take up a firing position for 27mm gun and ASRAAM.

(ix) Dublin ATC and RAF Air Command communicate this finding to their respective political masters along with their recomendations and the likely risks (the number of civilians both on the ground and in the air who will die if the AC is shot down).

(x) the UK PM and Irish Taoiseach have a short conversation on the phone where the Taoiseach asks for the aircraft to be shot down, the UK PM says "are you really, really sure?" and the Taoiseach says "yes". the UK PM says "you know, that once i order the shootdown its very unlikely that either you or i could stop it if one of us were to change our minds?"

"yes, i know"

(xi) the UK PM puts the phone down and calls RAF Air Command, where he orders the shootdown.

(xii) RAF Air Command order the fighters to carry out the shootdown as best they see fit.

(xiii) the Fighter crews try to locate an area where, on current course, the debris of the Aircraft will fall on as less a populated area as possible before it reaches whatever target its going for.

(xiv) having made a decision on that location, they chase the aircraft and then fire.

(xv) the Aircraft breaks up. very large numbers of people are dead.

at minimum that took 15 steps, all of which require decison making. if anyone reading this believes those 15 steps can be carried out between the time Dublin ATC notices odd behaviour by an aircraft and the time several hundred tons of Airbus hit Dublin City Centre, turning it into a burning crater, then they are stupid, crack smokingly stupid.

oh yes, and (xvi) The Taoiseach shoots himself.

Sir, I totally agree with you. I was just responding to and earlier post and that is the reason that I specifically said "when airbourne". Any situation like your scenario would involve a lot of decision making and a hell of a lot of courage to order the shooting down of a civilian aircraft. The fact still remains, though, that it would, as it stands, take probably just as long to use the air corps and most likely no where near as effective. Unless the air corps met the threat coming in first time they would not have a hope in hell of catching them if they had to chase them. They couldn't even pace them to escort them down if needed.