Blackhall/training contracts - help..

birch11

I'm hoping anyone out there who's been down the blackhall-solicitor route could give me advice - I'm in my early 30s and working as an engineer for almost 10 years now. I decided to try a career change and am now 2/3 of the way through doing a law degree at night and have attempted a couple of FE-1s.

Anyway, was hoping anyone could help me with the following:

- how many FE-1s should you have under your belt before approaching solicitors, sending out CVs?
- any tips for preparing lawyer CVs, am guessing prior engineering experience won't count for much..
- does it help to have worked in a solicitor's office beforehand, what's the story with getting in somewhere for experience?
- am I mad? as in does an engineer with an identity crisis have any hope in this business?

any advice would be greatly appreciated

ronnie3585

I dont mean to be cruel but a reality check might be in order. You are 30 years old and working as an engineer for the last ten years so I might hazard a guess that you are earning a decent crust. If you start your FE-1's now the earliest you could start PPC1 would be September 2009 meaning you would qualify until some time in 2012. During this period you will be taking a huge cut in your wages and working buckets of hours for little reward.

Do you really want all the heartache of doing FE-1's? As for finding an apprenticeship it is extremely difficult these days and getting harder. Being totally honest if you stand any chance of getting an apprenticeship you need contacts. I dont think sending out CV's will do any good. I know in our office CV's go straight in the bin, they're not even opened. This is a similar event in many offices around here. Many of my friends are looking for an apprenticeship and have sent our literally hundreds of CVs without success.

All in all its a lot of heartache for a difficult, stressful job.

Shinners23

ronnie3585 wrote: »

I dont mean to be cruel but a reality check might be in order. You are 30 years old and working as an engineer for the last ten years so I might hazard a guess that you are earning a decent crust. If you start your FE-1's now the earliest you could start PPC1 would be September 2009 meaning you would qualify until some time in 2012. During this period you will be taking a huge cut in your wages and working buckets of hours for little reward.

Do you really want all the heartache of doing FE-1's? As for finding an apprenticeship it is extremely difficult these days and getting harder. Being totally honest if you stand any chance of getting an apprenticeship you need contacts. I dont think sending out CV's will do any good. I know in our office CV's go straight in the bin, they're not even opened. This is a similar event in many offices around here. Many of my friends are looking for an apprenticeship and have sent our literally hundreds of CVs without success.

All in all its a lot of heartache for a difficult, stressful job.

Oh My God Ronnie he's 30 not 50!!!!! Birch, it is never too late to make a career change. In saying that one does need to look at it objectively. My uncle was a bus driver , he started studying law at 38 yrs of age and went on to become a very successful barrister so its never too late.

I'm sure you know about the difficulty in getting an apprenticeship and also how soul destroying the FE1's are but if you have the determination and focus.... go for it.


I'm 26, have 6 FE'1s under my belt and sitting my final 2 in Sept. I did all my study by night and I'm determined to become a solicitor.

Best of Luck in whatever you decide.

BehindTheScenes

Birch11 just so you know engineers and lawyers share very similar traits. You have to be able to look at problems in a very analytical way. You then have to deconstruct the problem and apply your knowledge to solve it. Then after this has been done all you need to do is give your opinion.

That's my two cents anyway.

Maximilian

birch11 wrote: »

- how many FE-1s should you have under your belt before approaching solicitors, sending out CVs?

There's so many people out there looking for traineeships, I wouldn't bother with someone who didn't have all of them.

birch11 wrote: »

- any tips for preparing lawyer CVs, am guessing prior engineering experience won't count for much..

I wouldn't have thought so.

birch11 wrote: »

- does it help to have worked in a solicitor's office beforehand, what's the story with getting in somewhere for experience?

Doesn't hurt but I wouldn't think its of all that much benefit. Its not like you will get to do anything of importance.

birch11 wrote: »

- am I mad? as in does an engineer with an identity crisis have any hope in this business?

I think you are completely, utterly mad. Believe me, if I could go back in time, I would not do law. This is not a glamorous business. Its hard work, long hours, stressful and the rewards are not what they are made out to be by the media. There are other, more lucrative careers. You will spend the next few years at the bottom, working your ass off and being bossed around by people potentially much younger than you. I really think you are mad to consider this.

BanzaiBk

I think you are completely, utterly mad. Believe me, if I could go back in time, I would not do law. This is not a glamorous business. Its hard work, long hours, stressful and the rewards are not what they are made out to be by the media. There are other, more lucrative careers. You will spend the next few years at the bottom, working your ass off and being bossed around by people potentially much younger than you. I really think you are mad to consider this.

It pains me to agree with you somewhat. I'm 21 yrs old now, been in the "game" since I was just 17 and honestly if I could go back in time I wouldn't pick law as my career. I was in awe of my parents and their many successes in this arena and felt that I was of the same calibre to carve out a career but it's nothing like I expected. I'm treated like crap on a daily basis, work my ass off from 10 to 8 sometimes 7 days a week and have a crazy stress problem. I've always excelled test wise/work wise and have some of the best marks out there but still that's not enough really. My own motivations weren't for money but for the "thrill" of knowledge and oration that I thought existed so earning practically no money has never really bothered me until the past few months where I can barely afford food let alone anything else. Thankfully my parents are in a position to help me out but at 21 years old I feel like dirt for relying on them at such a basic level still.

Maybe though as you are established in your career you have some money set aside but if you have any dependents/assets etc then you might want to think long and hard about what you plan on doing.

/first world problem rant over

Planxty

Banzai are you qualified?? That's pretty damn quick if you are! never heard of anyone done and dusted with law exams at 21

BanzaiBk

No I still haven't all my FE1s. I was very young going to college.

elgransenor

Birch 11,no you are not mad.
Many people have changed careers successfully and I myself am in my mid 40s having been a self employed retailer and 'stroker' for 20 years and am going to Blackhall in Sept.
I had no contacts whatsoever in the legal proffession and got an apprenticeship with my own solicitor without even doing a CV.
Furthermore the FE1s are not hard;I studied hard for 14 weeks and passed the whole lot last Sept. having not studied or sat an exam since 1983.
It all depends how much you are committed to it and how much you want it.
Clearly if you are doing a law degree you are not happy with your current position as an engineer so your motivation is probably higher than the people straight out of university who have taken the opportunity to do law for granted.
You say you have sat some FE1s so your existing degree must be acceptable from the Law Societys criteria.
The only black cloud is financial;the money when you are an apprentice is crap and if you are used to a decent salary it will be a shock.But if your nearest and dearest support you and are working and can combine with whatever income you receive then it is for a finite period of time.
You are looking at 3 years if you are really committed of this financial straightjacket but if you have been working in a proffession for 10 years that you detest then this should be a relatively small sacrifice.
To sum up,if you really want it go for it.

dats_right

OP your engineering background will not assist you unless you specifically want to work in a legal speciality associated with your qualification. Also think a couple of posters giving you too rosey a picture, listen to the negativity of the others as they are ultimately right.

sh_o

I would also say go for it! A background in engineering can be very beneficial, I have heard of people (without contacts) but significant experience being told that they would be taken on before completing all of their fe1's because their primary degree and work experience was very beneficial to the practice area of the solicitor.
When drafting your CV, be sure to target your CV accordingly and look at your experience from the perspective of a lawyer as opposed to an engineer, focus on the soft skills that a lawyer would be interested in as opposed to purely the engineering skills.
Good luck with it!

Charlie

OP for the most part I would agree with the negativity that has been posted. I have a 1.1 degree and am completing a masters and still, finding a training contract is proving difficult, so much so that I am beginning to think that the law isn't for me (there's so many god dam hurdles you have to jump just to get qualified!!).

However, having said that, you may be in luck. I love IP law and have been told by numerous lecturers that Patent law is where the money and growth is at at the moment. However to be taken on as a Patent lawyer, most firms would require you to have a degree and experience with the sciences or engineering. In this respect, you have a big advantage over many. However, this is assuming that patent law is something you'd be interested in.

CantGetNoSleep

elgransenor wrote: »

Birch 11,no you are not mad.
Many people have changed careers successfully and I myself am in my mid 40s having been a self employed retailer and 'stroker' for 20 years and am going to Blackhall in Sept.
I had no contacts whatsoever in the legal proffession and got an apprenticeship with my own solicitor without even doing a CV.
Furthermore the FE1s are not hard;I studied hard for 14 weeks and passed the whole lot last Sept. having not studied or sat an exam since 1983.
It all depends how much you are committed to it and how much you want it.
Clearly if you are doing a law degree you are not happy with your current position as an engineer so your motivation is probably higher than the people straight out of university who have taken the opportunity to do law for granted.
You say you have sat some FE1s so your existing degree must be acceptable from the Law Societys criteria.
The only black cloud is financial;the money when you are an apprentice is crap and if you are used to a decent salary it will be a shock.But if your nearest and dearest support you and are working and can combine with whatever income you receive then it is for a finite period of time.
You are looking at 3 years if you are really committed of this financial straightjacket but if you have been working in a proffession for 10 years that you detest then this should be a relatively small sacrifice.
To sum up,if you really want it go for it.

Getting an apprenticeship without even giving in a CV?
Passing all 8 FE1s in one go after 14 weeks study?

Be warned OP, if it was like this the whole country would become a solicitor, I'm not doubting this posters story but it does seem very exceptional

BanzaiBk

elgransenor wrote: »

Furthermore the FE1s are not hard;I studied hard for 14 weeks and passed the whole lot last Sept. having not studied or sat an exam since 1983.

14 weeks and you passed all 8? If that's true then I'm actually in awe.

Amazotheamazing

The Fe 1's aren't hard exams in themselves, they are hard if you approach them after doing a law degree for two simple reasons.

1) chances are you missed most of you lectures in first or second year, or only did enough to pass the college exams, so when it comes to the Fe's, you've a notion you know the subject but in reality you don't and have to re-learn everything. It means you can be complacent about subjects because you dimly remember "breezing" them in first year.

2) They are structured differently to college exams. In college, you tend to learn a lot about a very specific area. For the Fe's, you need to know very little across a broad area. It's a completely different skill.

That being said, I too have a 1.1 and law is not a glamourous career. Were I 17 or 18 again, I'm not sure I'm have gone down this route.

BanzaiBk

Admittedly the FE1s weren't as difficult as I had thought they would be, but I've only done 4. I fell for the "omg hard as hell" hype and was suitably prepared then I guess to pass them. However passing 8 after 14wks study is admirable imo.

Aside, is the 1.1 hons. that more advantageous over a 1.2 etc etc? In my circle of college friends we all received 1.1 after years of head exploding study, but three have struggled to secure a trainee contract.

Amazotheamazing

I dunno how much a premium can be placed on a 1.1 any more.

I would think if the OP has his heart set on it, his engineering backround will be invaluable as it gives him an extra dimension and experience that most solicitors simply don't have. Of course, it would depend on the type of engineering he studied and the area of law he wishes to practice in.

The thing is, what you study in college and what you work at as a solicitor may as well be two different subjects for all the real interaction between them.

skyhighflyer

birch11 wrote: »

I'm hoping anyone out there who's been down the blackhall-solicitor route could give me advice - I'm in my early 30s and working as an engineer for almost 10 years now. I decided to try a career change and am now 2/3 of the way through doing a law degree at night and have attempted a couple of FE-1s.

Anyway, was hoping anyone could help me with the following:

- how many FE-1s should you have under your belt before approaching solicitors, sending out CVs?
- any tips for preparing lawyer CVs, am guessing prior engineering experience won't count for much..
- does it help to have worked in a solicitor's office beforehand, what's the story with getting in somewhere for experience?
- am I mad? as in does an engineer with an identity crisis have any hope in this business?

any advice would be greatly appreciated

There seems to be a lot of negativity on this thread. While I'm sure the previous posters have their reasons for being as pessimistic as they are, the situation isn't necessarily as bleak as it's made out to be, at least in my experience.

how many FE-1s should you have under your belt before approaching solicitors, sending out CVs?

The top 5 firms, and most of the top 10, will take on students with no FE-1s (although starting your training contract will obviously be conditional on having passed them all) If you're applying to a small high street or specialist practice, you'd probably need to have passed them all before applying.

- any tips for preparing lawyer CVs, am guessing prior engineering experience won't count for much..

I'm going to disagree with most people here and say that your previous engineering experience will count for a whole lot. I was recently speaking to an equity partner in a large English firm who had worked as an engineer for a number of years before changing career. The ability to think logically and analytically will stand you in good stead in the legal sphere. I also know of solicitors who started off doing engineering and other degrees before changing to law. As long as you can come up with good reasons for wanting to change, I'd say most firms will be happy to consider your applications.

does it help to have worked in a solicitor's office beforehand, what's the story with getting in somewhere for experience?

Possibly, but in a small office context it's only worthwhile if there's a possibility of being offered a training contract. It's not too hard to get photocopying and coffee making experience somewhere (and this is probably all you'll be doing), the fact that it happened to be in a solictor's office doesn't make any difference. Consider applying to do a summer scheme run by one of the bigger firms in Dublin (or even London) to get some real experience (and these can be good in terms of getting the foot in the door for interviews too)

am I mad? as in does an engineer with an identity crisis have any hope in this business?

Possibly, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do what you have to do. Have you considered working in the UK? Firms there tend to be more receptive to people from different professional backgrounds. If you're looking for an appreticeship in a small office, then you're going to have to know someone; smaller firms are snowed under with CVs. However, applying to the larger firms is a much more meritocratic process and you've as good a chance as anyone else.

Best of luck

birch11

Cheers folks,

Appreciate all the advice one way or another.

Am studying IP, Arbitration, Family, Labour law as part of the degree in the hope that it will give me something extra over people who concentrate solely on the required Blackhall & Kings Inns subjects. I'm hoping that I can spin the eng degree, Industrial eng by the way, as providing a good knowledge base for IP.

I'm probably mad to be packing in a reasonably good career to start again but then again I'm employed in the manufacturing sector which is not a good area of Irish industry to be in right now and into the future. Plus I've never really gotten into eng, if I could go back in time and fill my CAO form out again would definitely have plumped for law as I really enjoy it and seem to have an aptitude for it.

Cheers again for the input, good to hear from people with direct experience.

myxi

Hi Birch11

I work as a legal exec in the IP department of one of the large firms in Dublin and engineering will certainly help as a background! With IP you need to know about everything from medical devices to agricultural products and depending on your clients how to spot copyright infringing goods in the shops! IP is a very exciting area to work in but also very hard to get into. Most small firms don't take on any IP cases because it is too specialisied an area and even the big 5 don't have very large departments. My advice would be to apply to the big 5 when you have your FE1's because at least with them you will have a greater change to work in their IP department when training!

Best of luck with the career change, its never too late!!

vote4pedro

I've asked this before but since there's a lot of helpful people already in this thread, here goes;

Is it possible to become involved in the criminal area of law through being a solicitor. Are there specialist criminal law firms, or if you want to be involved in that area are you best off going down the Kings Inn route?