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Praying for Diabetes

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    #32
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Interesting they deny their child a doctor, but have no problem hiring lawyers paid for by donations.

    They're clearly not so sure about God's help on that one.


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    #33
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Actually, I recall a discussion on Newstalk a while ago where someone was explaining the situation in Ireland for this kind of thing, and he said that basically it's the same deal (based on court rulings)... If witholding the treatment will result in death, then the state may intervene; but if it 'merely' results in diminished health or sickness, then it's left to the parents.

    Dunno if I have it 100% correct, but that's how I recall it anyway.

    What a precarious situation to be in for the sake of respecting religion.


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    #34
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Dades wrote: »
    Interesting they deny their child a doctor, but have no problem hiring lawyers paid for by donations.

    They're clearly not so sure about God's help on that one.

    It actually sickens me their hypocrisy. They leave their childs health and ultimate death up to the whim of some non existant deity, but when it comes to actually attoning for their negligence they now choose to rely on the powers of man to help them over their God. How utterly deplorable.


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    #35
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    Hardly suprising the parents are opting for human help on this one. Throughout history every side in every battle has claimed God was on their side.

    No doubt if they win they will claim that God intervened on their behalf and not the 3000 years of culmative education their lawyer had behind him.

    If they lose I suppose people will blame the judges and prosecution for "interfering in gods work".

    As regards the case ... they are guilty as sin and should have to face the consequences. The other children should be taken into care because clearly the parents are willing to put their faith in supernatural intervention above the welfare of their child - to my mind that makes the parents not merely unfit but of questionable sanity.


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    #36
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    It actually sickens me their hypocrisy. They leave their childs health and ultimate death up to the whim of some non existant deity, but when it comes to actually attoning for their negligence they now choose to rely on the powers of man to help them over their God. How utterly deplorable.

    Let's hope the prosecuting lawyer notices.


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    #37
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    pH wrote: »
    This I found particularly chilling:
    Wisconsin law, he noted, exempts a parent or guardian who treats a child with only prayer from being criminally charged with neglecting child welfare laws, but only “as long as a condition is not life threatening.” Kara’s parents, Judge Howard wrote, “were very well aware of her deteriorating medical condition.”
    This got me.
    Police Report wrote:
    “Kara laid down and was unable to move her mouth,” the report said, “and merely made moaning noises and moved her eyes back and forth.”
    Animals.

    MrP


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    #38
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Could they not have used the 'Lord moves in mysterious ways' philosophy and send her to a doctor? Then when she was all better they could say 'Thank God for inventing doctors'.


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    #39
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Dave! wrote: »
    If witholding the treatment will result in death, then the state may intervene; but if it 'merely' results in diminished health or sickness, then it's left to the parents.

    Dunno if I have it 100% correct, but that's how I recall it anyway.

    What a precarious situation to be in for the sake of respecting religion.


    Exactly, it asumes that parents will always be able to tell the difference between symptoms that are potentially life-threatening and those that are not. Which is lunacy to begin with. Diabetic ketoacidosis is a more serious condition than most people would realise, so it's a good example of why the wording of this particular law is way wrong.

    This goes back to the old problem of religion and religious beliefs in general being afforded FAR too much respect. In any other circumstances if you wilfuly denied your child medical attention despite them having a worsening and potentially serious ailment, you'd be thrown in jail. But invoke religious freedom and it seems you can get away with almost anything.

    It's time to start calling a spade a spade here, these people are deluded morons at best and of questionbable sanity (not to mention fitness as parents) at worst. I accept that most religious believers would not condone what these people did, however all christians, muslims etc (who regularly pray) believe there is a god listening every time they mutter prayers in their head, and unfortunately some people just take that a step too far.


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    #40
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.

    I've come across this. The wife mutual friend who fancies herself as as a bit of a witchy-poo pagan type insisted on keeping her seriously ill son at home and trying to deal with his illness in a homeopathic way. Despite the child having lifelong health difficulties.

    Gladly, when it was pointed out to her that there had been talk of social services being brought into the equation she realised the seriousness of her error. The disturbing thing really was she obviously had the child's welfare in mind and actually thought she was doing the right thing.


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    #41
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Most Christians believe that god only help those who help themselves and when they get positive results they can then attribute it to god, ignoring their own actions. These parents must not have been aware of that particular piece of Christian sophistry.


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    #42
    DinoBot
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DinoBot


    sink wrote: »
    Most Christians believe that god only help those who help themselves and when they get positive results they can then attribute it to god, ignoring their own actions. These parents must not have been aware of that particular piece of Christian sophistry.

    Actually most christians believe that quote but its false:

    Question: "God helps those who help themselves - is it in the Bible?"

    Answer: "God helps those who help themselves" is probably the most often quoted phrase that is not found in the Bible. This is actually a quote from Ben Franklin and it appeared in Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757. In fact the Bible teaches the opposite

    http://www.gotquestions.org/God-help-themselves.html


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    #43
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    studiorat wrote: »
    It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.
    Well, we still welcome all here*, regardless of colour, orientation, post count, sword-ownership or even invisible friends.

    * Posts may not be welcomed


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    #44
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    those parents' behaviour is absolutely deplorable and really makes me question my enthusiasm for humankind.

    shocking, just shocking.


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    #45
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    studiorat wrote: »
    It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.

    I'm gonna start a whites only thread. See how far I get.


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    #46
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    studiorat wrote: »
    It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.

    I like when the OP on that thread says "We know God can definitely heal"

    Guess the jury is still out on modern medicine


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    #47
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    God fails to step in, once again.

    What a surprise...


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    #48
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    Well, we still welcome all here*, regardless of colour, orientation, post count, sword-ownership or even invisible friends.

    * Posts may not be welcomed
    Galvasean wrote: »
    I'm gonna start a whites only thread. See how far I get.
    MatthewVII wrote: »
    I like when the OP on that thread says "We know God can definitely heal"

    Guess the jury is still out on modern medicine

    Hmmm, I wonder why I want Christian only response there? But obviously you are welcome to have yer little back slappery in this thread.
    sionnach wrote:
    Because you don't want the obvious massive flaws in your arguments pointed out by people employing reason and sound logic?

    Just clockin up another reason. As I'm sure most of you realise, I couldn't give a fiddlers fart about how clever you feel you are, or how stupid you think I/we are as Christians. It would be useful on the thread in question, to be able to discuss certain things without having to deal with people such as yourselves. If you think thats because I don't like to be challenged or whatever, so be it. As long as you adhere to the request, you can think I'm whatever you see fit.


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    #49
    sionnach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭sionnach


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Hmmm, I wonder why I want Christian only response there?

    Because you don't want the obvious massive flaws in your arguments pointed out by people employing reason and sound logic?


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    #50
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I for one was only having a laugh, JimiTime.

    I think you should have more Christian-only threads over there.


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    #51
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    I for one was only having a laugh, JimiTime.

    I think you should have more Christian-only threads over there.

    Just reading back on my post I see why you thougt I was directing that at you. I was pointing out other responses as to why all were not welcome on my thread. (A thread that seems to be generating little interest anyway) People just seemed to be coming here to have a pop.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JimiTime wrote: »
    on my thread

    I've always thought that once a thread is started, it belongs to nobody. The OP can't dictate the direction that it goes, or even who posts. That's the job of the mods.


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    cavedave wrote: »
    From here


    What consequences do you think allowing this to happen should have? Do you think her siblings should be removed from her parents?

    God is almighty.They prayed for Diabetes and that is what they got.


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    #54
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    -JammyDodger- wrote: »
    I've always thought that once a thread is started, it belongs to nobody. The OP can't dictate the direction that it goes, or even who posts. That's the job of the mods.
    Well you can request in Christianity believer-only responses. I recall that was agreed a while back after a kerfuffle.


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dades wrote: »
    Well you can request in Christianity believer-only responses. I recall that was agreed a while back after a kerfuffle.

    Oh, I didn't know that! I suppose that was a good while before I started posting here; I'll keep it in mind in future.


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    #56
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    JimiTime wrote: »
    It would be useful on the thread in question, to be able to discuss certain things without having to deal with people such as yourselves.

    Yes, heaven forbid someone might disagree with you.


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    #57
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Hmmm, I wonder why I want Christian only response there? But obviously you are welcome to have yer little back slappery in this thread.

    It's not backslappery. You don't have to be an atheist to realise that the concept of trusting healing to god instead of science which has been honed and refined over centuries with demonstrable and constantly audited evidence-bases is laughable at best and extremely dangerous at worst, as highlighted by this case. I find the argument about god giving humans the tools for treating diabetes nice (on the christians only thread, but I'm not allowed post there), but why should you thank him for giving you a way to treat something he inflicted on the world in the first place?

    Medicine > God in all things medical.


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    #58
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    I've yet to hear of a type 1 diabetic cured. Insulin is my God, it loves me, it wants nothing back, it keeps me alive. Sure the needle is a bit sore but love hurts sometimes.

    Those parents should be in jail for murdering and torturing their daugher. DKA is a very painful and horrible way to die. I had it and 5% of all who have it die.

    DKA though nasty and dangerous is usually easily solved by IV insulin, dextrose and if the electrolytes are low potassium. The parents were stupid and negligent. Those childrne should be in care and some sort of deprogramming program as the parents are obviously religous fundies. I have no problem against religion but its arrogant to say 'oh god will help us' when its a doctor they need.


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    #59
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Sure the needle is a bit sore but love hurts sometimes.

    It's all part of Insulin's plan. His ways are higher than ours.


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    #60
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    Inslulin Akbar (4x)
    Ashhadu Insulin ilaaha illa-Lah (2x)
    Ash Hadu anna Glucometer rasuulullah (2x)
    Hayya' alas Test (2x)
    Hayya' ala Eat (2x)
    A-Insulin Khayrun Mina-Naum (2x)
    Qad qaamitis Insulin (2x)
    Insulin Akbar (2x)
    Laa ilaaha illa-Insulin


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    #61
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Yes, heaven forbid someone might disagree with you.

    As I said, I've no problem with anyone thinking that thats the motivation. As long as the request is honoured, work away.


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