Lisbon treaty basics?

madrab

Hi Guys

i know there is a rather large thread on this but i had a quick flick through it & it mostly goes over my head.
My main question is what is the treaty about?
Is there anywhere that explains it in laymans terms?

Thanks

Shield

+1

madrab wrote: »

Hi Guys

i know there is a rather large thread on this but i had a quick flick through it & it mostly goes over my head.
My main question is what is the treaty about?
Is there anywhere that explains it in laymans terms?

Thanks

partholon

put simply....

no, there isnt.

so do the maths on that

oscarBravo

This should give a reasonable starting point.

It's not that big a deal. It's a reform treaty, whose main purpose is to streamline the existing treaties so they make more sense in an enlarged Europe.

You can ignore pretty much all the hyperbole from both sides.

oscarBravo

From the above link, this is possibly the best summary.

Scofflaw

A few guides:


One from Andrew Duff MEP.

The Forum on Europe Guide.

Guide from the UK European Movement.

Sinn Fein's Alternative Guide.

And last - this is one I strongly recommend. It's very brief summaries of what the changes made by each article are. It's certainly dry, and you may have to run around looking stuff up, but it's the absolutely shortest and un-spinning summary of changes I've seen.

Most of those are PDF's.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Unpossible

edit: nevermind I will ask that in the other thread.


Thanks for those links btw, I will give a look through them when I get home.

johnnyq

If you want two opposing guides:

FF *Government* "Yes" Website: www.reformtreaty.ie

(Sorry, for excluding 'government' earlier but this site is certainly not neutral)

Libertas "No" Website: www.libertas.org

oscarBravo

I'd respectfully submit that the more you read on the subject, the better informed you'll be. I wouldn't confine myself to two partisan guides.

Scofflaw

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'd respectfully submit that the more you read on the subject, the better informed you'll be. I wouldn't confine myself to two partisan guides.

Also, www.reformtreaty.ie is not an FF site. It's an official Department of Foreign Affairs site.

The FF Lisbon site is www.vote4europe.ie.


cordially,
Scofflaw

Wetbench4

I found this while stumbling, Scary scary stuff. I know which way i`m voting!!!

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=173

Galliard

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm is a summary by the BBC.

www.bonde.com Danish MEP's site in English. A critical insider's view from the longest serving MEP in the Parliament.

johnnyskeleton

Wetbench4 wrote: »

I found this while stumbling, Scary scary stuff. I know which way i`m voting!!!

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=173

After talking about the surrender of terror suspects, the Danish guy was confronted by someone who said "excuse me, that's not true" or something along those lines, and he brushed him off by saying "I'm not here to have a debate". Then the camera switched away.

Another thing is that that video makes a big furore about the Laval decision (the right of a company from one EU country to set up shop in another EU country and pay their workers the rate of pay in the company's home rather than in the state in which they work), but that is already EU law, and voting yes or no to the treaty will make no difference to that.

There seems to me to be a lot of misinformation and doubtful assertions on both sides in the debate, and I think that makes the whole thing even harder to come to terms with.

Does anyone have any links to sites with specific information on the changes, without any commentary or spin being put on them?

Moriarty

I've moved Rossibaby and Scofflaw's posts debating the issues to the main thread to try and keep this thread purely for reference material on the treaty. Let's not fill this one up with countless youtube links either, eh?

<edit>MossyMonk and OscarBravo's posts moved to the other thread aswell.</edit>

Scofflaw

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

After talking about the surrender of terror suspects, the Danish guy was confronted by someone who said "excuse me, that's not true" or something along those lines, and he brushed him off by saying "I'm not here to have a debate". Then the camera switched away.

Another thing is that that video makes a big furore about the Laval decision (the right of a company from one EU country to set up shop in another EU country and pay their workers the rate of pay in the company's home rather than in the state in which they work), but that is already EU law, and voting yes or no to the treaty will make no difference to that.

There seems to me to be a lot of misinformation and doubtful assertions on both sides in the debate, and I think that makes the whole thing even harder to come to terms with.

Does anyone have any links to sites with specific information on the changes, without any commentary or spin being put on them?

I can but recommend this one again - it's exactly that, just the changes, article by article, no commentary.

An example of the style:

Article 4 (3a)

"Draws on Articles 6(3), 11(2) and 33 TEU and Article10 TEC.
Expands on existing obligation to respect national identities by requiring the EU to
respect the equality of Member States, their governmental structures and essential State
functions, such as law and order, and recognising that each Member State has sole
responsibility for its national security."

cordially,
Scofflaw

edanto

The Institute of European Affairs in Dublin has compiled this guide showing how the various treaties already in place are amended by Lisbon.

It's dry, long, and full of legalese but 100% accurate and you get to make your own mind up.

http://www.iiea.com/publicationx.php?publication_id=33 It costs €25 for a printed version (weighs a kilo or two), but PDFs are available at that link too.

Scofflaw

The EU are bringing out a consolidated version themselves on April 15th online, and May 9th on paper. Source.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Galliard

edanto wrote: »

The Institute of European Affairs in Dublin has compiled this guide showing how the various treaties already in place are amended by Lisbon.

It's dry, long, and full of legalese but 100% accurate and you get to make your own mind up.

http://www.iiea.com/publicationx.php?publication_id=33 It costs €25 for a printed version (weighs a kilo or two), but PDFs are available at that link too.

The iiea are also bringing out an annotated version of the Lisbon treaty in a couple of weeks. This will let people see the actual changes that are being made to the existing treaties. It will have the existing text, with strike throughs showing what is being deleted, and coloured text showing the new wording.

They estimate it will cost €100 a copy.

Scofflaw

Galliard wrote: »

The iiea are also bringing out an annotated version of the Lisbon treaty in a couple of weeks. This will let people see the actual changes that are being made to the existing treaties. It will have the existing text, with strike throughs showing what is being deleted, and coloured text showing the new wording.

They estimate it will cost €100 a copy.

Hmm. Will there be a PDF copy as per the current consolidated version, which costs €25 on paper?

interested,
Scofflaw

Galliard

Yes

Scofflaw

Galliard wrote: »

Yes

Excellent! I look forward to it so.

thanks,
Scofflaw