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Dáil Protest and University Run to Dublin
Comments
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You asked me how it could be biased, not how I could make such a claim without having viewed the petition. At least, looking back at your last post thats the question posed.
In answer to this new question, I already admitted that it was a stupid point to bring up (will I write this in a letter and send it to you, as you keep forgetting iv addressed the point!) without having viewed it. I was trying to bring the point forward that from what I am told from other staff within the organisation it started of with a number of staff and if the petition continued it would be considered bias - a point you have finally agreed with me on. I didnt ask him to provide names on a registar of staff and I wasnt going to hunt down a list and check each person. Why the hell would I even bother? I gather that the person who said this was correct as you have not disputed the comment but disputed everything else.
The point, as iv said a few times, was stupid to bring up. It had no real relevance and was thrown in there as a weak point in response to your point about the petition. Iv already taken it back but you seem to like dragging it out as long as you can. I have no problem admitting to flawed points.
As I said previously I didn't want an answer from you and the above is exactly why. I'll remind you of exactly what I asked previously because my question was why you made the implication not could it have been biased:
"Why add this if yet again you admit that you do not know - pointless rambling which serves no purpose other than you trying to allude to a hidden agenda/vested interest which is not the case."
and
"I can be as sure as I can from recognising plenty of the names on that petition that are not WIT/TSSG staff. Why would you even imply such a thing and then follow it up with 'I haven't looked'"
I don't have to dispute the names on the petition as it by your own admission was a "flawed", "weak" and "stupid" point. Getting into a battle about that would only make it look like I was trying to defend something that wasn't the case. I don't care what order or who signs the petition - it's all valid as these folk presumably either live in or have some connection to the region.Bare in mind that not every student will take any notice of the survey and the email address on file might be incorrect or down. WIT are having problems getting students to acknowledge what exams they have over email, I cant see a survey going down to well.
Oh and I doubt WIT will even bother emailing all students with a survery so an independent research from someone like you or I would have to be done without having access to the list of students email address. Hence, my method would be a better one to use. You wont get 10000 students in a room and you certinally wont meet them all on a period of a college year.
Maybe they won't pay any attention to an e-mail and perhaps that's a perfectly natural filter of people who don't have opinions on anything. You said it wasn't possible I merely stated that it was but it is more likely that a proper stratified sample frame would be constructed. This would take a great deal more effort though if proportional representation was to be achieved. A bit like surveying people in Dublin if the South East should get a uni, you have to be careful who's in your sample frame to get a mixture of opinions.If your going to start quoting figures, please let them be accurate. Plucking numbers out of the air to vent your anger further towards me is annoying and pretty lame.
You've responded to me about 5 times, at the time of writing my last post, that is not a figure from the air. Each time you voiced negative opinions, sometimes detached as "other people's" opinions. I don't see what could be annoying about stating what you did.I made a long post expressing how some students in WIT feel about university status for WIT. I for one felt the same way having listening to students problems and dealing with problems of my own (which affected the class) for the last two years and asked myself: If WIT became a university could these problems esculate and get far worse then they currently are? My question has been answered. You didnt seem to grasp that point, so I clarified it. It was only in your second response to my long post did I get the impression you did not grasp with what I was saying and further clarified it.
I know these issues are not reported or discussed in mainstream debates and people like yourself who are strong University supporters refuse to even consider them as a "problem" in an application. I know people go on about how bigger organisations are riddled with problems and thats just life.
However, I (and many others) do not consider a university a place of education which is having some very serious (if the case turned out to be like this after an upgrade, which I dont think it will) management and organisation problems which are affecting the education that WIT Students receive and damaging the name of what has the potential of making an excellent University.
Firstly I didn't fail to grasp your point, I very simply didn't understand why you, who were supposedly in favour of the decision to re-designate, should flood your posts in this thread, in response to me, with negative remarks about the standard of the college and potentially use this as a reason not to re-designate. Secondly as I keep saying experts have analysed this performance and spoken to some students even about the college and they are happy with the way things are working. That's the only reason that I kept responding to this matter that you didn't want to let go.At present, the problems are present and while I have only experienced a small amount of them others are experiencing worse. People in the WIT who have experienced such problems feel that if WIT was to be upgraded matters could be a lot worse - ie if it cant function great as an IT, would a University make a difference? They feel that perhaps if time was delayed and WIT started to address the problems (some, not all) then it could really have a good reason for University.
After listening to the debate on Boards and listening to many others outsiders, while I knew the potential was there but had my doubts - University will more then likely address my concerns and take up the potential and come one of Ireland best universities giving a much needed boost to the South East. All I was trying to do is make you see it from other peoples point of view so you understand how they feel.
As I said before, I was somewhat one of those people as an undergrad but I knew/know that there is a bigger picture too that has to be considered.As a class rep, was it your job to go look for problems? Did you come into college to find problems and report on them?
Class rep as it is now is to represent students who may be having difficulties personally, problems with a lecturer, problems getting a lecturer and so on. It is the job of a class rep to listen to the problems and address it if possible, and if not, pass it onto someone who can sort it out. The job of the class rep is not to hunt down, find or identify problems. The people with the problems come to the reps and explain the issues for them to address.
Perhaps I need to go back to English class or something as you're really not getting me here. I mean that class reps have the responsibility to bring problems to the attention of the union and/or the college. I compiled reports myself on certain things and submitted them. I'm not saying that you have to actively go out and find a hidden issue but you do carry the burden of representing your fellow students and you should be talking to them about their experience. That is how problems come to light and not that you invent them. That is all that I meant.That is not the same as "find" or "identify". Your making out students who are class reps to be like nothing but a busybody looking to find something to bitch to the Union, Course Leader or Year Head about by using those words.
See above.:rolleyes: - please, at least be civil or just ignore my posts. Clearly you cant be in a debate as you refuse to listen other opinions if your going to start posting like that.
I am being civil but you certainly correlated the worst case scenario in that passage which I'm still not sure if it was all your own experience or the combined disasters of others that you have spoken to - you keep intermingling stories, it's hard to keep track of your opinions vs. those that you've heard. As you say yourself, this is a discussion board and I'm entitled to express my opinions just like you are. If I see something I don't agree with then I can voice my opinion just like you do. As for "cant be in a debate as you refuse to listen other opinions", you've based your entire argument with me on negatively biased conjecture without considering the recorded facts and expert testimonies - that is not a debate.I have been in WIT nearly 3 years. During this time I have been class rep and have attended the union meetings. I know many other class reps and students in various different courses in various different departments. I also know staff personally and those who I know just through being in WIT as a student. I have heard all the horror storys, the complaints, the gripes, the concerns etc. Some are minor, some are bigger then I have ever had to deal with. The points I raised above in earlier posts are a summary of the problems from others, not just me.
Fair enough, we all have. Others from other universities will probably tell you theirs. Again I ask why you condense all the collective experiences into the nightmare story that you wrote previously? Actually scratch that question if it means that you'll repeat the same paragraph.In some courses it might be possible but it is NOT possible for every course and for every subject. I never said it was two months starting at zero either btw. And sorry but if I pay for an education, I expect to get that education in full. Not half of it, or part of it.
Unless you are a night student you pay a capitation fee to subsidise your direct costs in materials, etc but you don't pay fees for education - that's the tax payer. My statement about starting at zero after 2 months was not an accusation but a comparative statement to reflect the opposite of doing independent study.Yes I do work for this business, I am one of the owners. However comparing web development or IT work to college study is the worse point you have ever made during the course of conversation with you.
If a customer wants X built that we have not done before - we know exactly what X is, so know exactly where to look to research on the best methods used. As its all the one programming language mostly, you can easily work on it. Its not something completely different and new. If someone asked us to develop in a different language, we would have to politely refuse and recommend another company as we do not have the time or knowledge to research the new language to do the clients job efficently.
Well done, it's great to see an interest in local business creation. I'm sure that if the university is granted and small start-ups take shape that you'll probably benefit from IT contracts from these small start-ups who can't afford bigger name IT solutions. I understand that learning is not a programming language but my point is valid; when you have to do something and I'm sure that as an owner of the company you'll know, you have to just get on with it and do what you can even if you don't understand the statement of work at the beginning, otherwise no moola. You undertake, you adapt and you learn. That was all I meant by it, nothing stops us when we want to do something so why should it stop us when we feel that somebody else should be handing it up to us?If a student wants to learn "Applied Calculus" and doesnt know how, he can study a book and find that a large majority of what he studied isnt being exmained or even course material. Some of the books use older methods or approaches, or dont cover it all.
Every course syllabus is published in detail, before the academic term. In some universities students aren't given half the coaching that they are in the IoT sector. I accept that you can't learn everything but there are things that can be done with a positive attitude.My original question was to get you to prove that 90% of my posts about WIT are negative. If you cant, remove the statement.
My context, yet again, was this thread and I really have better things to do than copy and paste each of your posts into a new document and split them either on line wrap or full stops depending on the use of punctuation marks in order to prove it to you - it's there in black and white or whatever theme you use to view boards.ie. If you want the statement removed then feel free to do so. I have no attachment to it being there as it was aimed at you and not a wider public audience therefore serving no other purpose.0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 21860
Since we are simply going around in circles and it seems that I am talking to a wall, I am not going to presue the conversation with you. My points about why I felt WIT shouldnt get Uni and what many others felt still stands. I am not ashamed to say it and I will consider it a big part of the argument "For & Against" WITs application. Now my mind has been changed, mainly because of the arguments with others like merlante.
For those whos mind has not been changed, I have no problem trying to explain to those who cant get a head around why they feel that way as I once felt the same. I think iv brought the point forward and discussed it in depth, but its pointless dragging it out any further unless someone else has anything else to add.
For the remarks about the petition, I wont discuss that anymore. Iv already withdrew the comment and its the only one I am willing to withdraw.
Obviously if WIT gets University, which it has the potential to become, it will be great for the South East and make the college improve on its down side and improve on what is already great. At the end of the day, in my three years in WIT, I am happy to study here despite the problems that I and others have encountered. I just hope that if it gets University that they will be somewat addressed and if it doesnt for some odd reason, that they continue to grow and address such issues and perhaps - better luck next time.0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 21860
Funnily enough with all our talk about a survey - WIT are currently undertaking one asking them how they feel about student life. And despite my ranting, I gave them good enough feedback! Some are ignoring it despite it popsup each time you login but its funny all the same. I doubt WIT will disclose the results.
I can get a hold of the URL to the surey if anyones interested!0 -
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