Magic/illusions board..

JoseJones · 29-03-2008 9:26pm

or else keep it public, and agree not to reveal methods or mechanics? it seems like the only people against this are the people who don't have any real interest in magic...

tbh · 29-03-2008 9:28pm

if you produce a trick, and sell it to someone, there's nothing to stop them from making a show specifically showing people how your trick works, is there? I mean, you don't make them sign a non-disclosure agreement do you?

The problem here isn't with boards, it's with people making the videos in the first place.

As long as the information is out there, and it's not illegal, then it's going to be carried on the internet, and for boards to make a stand on something like this and try to prevent the conduit of this type of information would be pointless.

The irony is that threads like these have a tendency to increase traffic to the forum being discussed, so you might be shooting yourself in the foot. My advice to you would be to pick your battles a bit better - you're never going to prevent the information being shared, but you could make a good case for requesting the the forum being made private - threads wouldn't show up in google, for a start.

Mr. Presentable · 29-03-2008 9:29pm

rb_ie wrote: »

I agree with making the forum private, but I certainly don't believe that access to it should only be granted to those with existing knowledge in the area, which is what these "magicians" are looking for.

I have no particular interest in "magic" but am trying to see their point of view. Make it private and restricted to those who like the idea of having 6th as their overlord

Mr. Presentable · 29-03-2008 9:32pm

tbh wrote: »

As long as the information is out there, and it's not illegal, then it's going to be carried on the internet, and for boards to make a stand on something like this and try to prevent the conduit of this type of information would be pointless.
.

Just because it's available elsewhere is no justification for why it should be available here. In fact, it may be considered a good reason why there is no need for it to be duplicated on Boards.ie.

JoseJones · 29-03-2008 9:32pm

if you produce a trick, and sell it to someone, there's nothing to stop them from making a show specifically showing people how your trick works, is there? I mean, you don't make them sign a non-disclosure agreement do you?

Nothing to stop them but it's wrong. well, magicians don't agree with it anyway...

Sherifu · 29-03-2008 9:46pm

JoseJones wrote: »

Nothing to stop them but it's wrong. well, magicians don't agree with it anyway...

I've seen magicians explaining tricks. e.g. Penn & Teller, Masked Magician(Val Valentino).

Gordon · 29-03-2008 9:53pm

A magician tought me his tricks when I worked in a bar not so long ago. He would show me tricks and if I asked him how he did them he'd tell me or show me. He'd also bounce his new material off me when he created it. Maybe he did this to keep sweet with the bartender, but he knew that I showed my customers how I did my tricks/bartricks after I had shown them the trick. I think there are some magicians that don't mind and some that do tbh.

tbh · 29-03-2008 9:56pm

nipplenuts wrote: »

Just because it's available elsewhere is no justification for why it should be available here. In fact, it may be considered a good reason why there is no need for it to be duplicated on Boards.ie.

but the onus isn't to prove that it should be available here, it's that it shouldn't. And the OP hasn't made a strong enough case, IMO. As i've said, I can see a good argument for saying that it should be restricted, but not prohibited.

zuroph · 29-03-2008 9:58pm

Sherifu wrote: »

I've seen magicians explaining tricks. e.g. Penn & Teller, Masked Magician(Val Valentino).

What does what you have seen matter? I've seen a person stabbed, that doesnt make it ok.

penn and teller would reveal their own tricks, also, in a lot of magic, a small secret is revealed to hide the bigger secret. derren brown regularily "explains" how tricks work on his tv shows, the explanations he gives are rarely factual.

val valentino on the other hand is hated, a washed up magician who took the chance of making some money by selling out against the industry that had given him an income for years. he initially turned fox down on moral grounds, and only signed up when they raised their money offer, told him he would be masked, and said that only older illusions would be revealed. while filming they forced him into newer illusions also.

Sherifu · 29-03-2008 10:01pm

zuroph wrote: »

What does what you have seen matter? I've seen a person stabbed, that doesnt make it ok.

A person stabbed :pac:
He said magicians don't reveal tricks. I've seen some reveal. Obviously some magicians are ok with it.

zuroph wrote: »

penn and teller would reveal their own tricks, also, in a lot of magic, a small secret is revealed to hide the bigger secret. derren brown regularily "explains" how tricks work on his tv shows, the explanations he gives are rarely factual.

val valentino on the other hand is hated, a washed up magician who took the chance of making some money by selling out against the industry that had given him an income for years. he initially turned fox down on moral grounds, and only signed up when they raised their money offer, told him he would be masked, and said that only older illusions would be revealed. while filming they forced him into newer illusions also.

lol

JoseJones · 29-03-2008 10:14pm

penn and teller revealing their own tricks is completely different do some guy going out, buying someone's trick and then telling everyone how it's done on a public forum...

Sherifu · 29-03-2008 10:23pm

JoseJones wrote: »

penn and teller revealing their own tricks is completely different do some guy going out, buying someone's trick and then telling everyone how it's done on a public forum...

I don't think they were Penn & Teller's tricks. The ones I saw were well known illusions/magic tricks. Anyway it doesn't matter. Val Valentino revealed tricks that definitely weren't his and he did it on the most public stage of all; television. I'm not saying it's right, just that some magicians are ok with revealing secrets. I can respect the desire to have these things kept in the magic circle or whatever.

zuroph · 29-03-2008 10:26pm

some...

like some people are ok with stealing others wives. not illegal, but morally objectionable.

Voodu Child · 29-03-2008 10:44pm

I think the issue is one of understanding and respect, rather than anything to do with legality or freedom of information. Lots of things are freely available on the internet, who cares, boards.ie isn't 'the internet', the rules here are decided based on a multitide of reasons, legality being pretty far down on the list most of the time.

The fact is, not revealing methods to 'non magicians' has been part of the magic artform since day one. It's not an 'elitism' or snobbery thing, it's just a way of keeping things 'magic' rather than some daft eejit hiding things up his sleeve.

Going out of the way to start up a magic forum, and then not making any guidelines regarding 'exposure' is bizarre and shows very little understanding of the artform, and very little respect to enthusiasts, on the part of whoever decided these things.

Was there any research at all done, or was it just a case of lobbying for any forum at all just so that someone could finally be a mod?

WhiteWashMan · 29-03-2008 10:49pm

since we appear to have hit a question on ethics and moral responsibility, why dont the mods of the forum simply put the question to those who post in the forum?

no point in putting it to the public, becuase lets face it, other than a passing interest, most of us dont give a fig about how magic works.

however, let it be said that while showing tricks may be annoying to other magicians, i fail to see whats wrong with it other than the ethical debate.
if th poll comes up in favour of keeping the lid on the tricks, then im sure the mods will respect the majority decision of the forum.

Voodu Child · 29-03-2008 10:58pm

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

since we appear to have hit a question on ethics and moral responsibility, why dont the mods of the forum simply put the question to those who post in the forum?

That suggestion was made (by me) via PM to one of the mods last week after seeing the kerfuffle it was causing on some threads there.

Im not sure if he rejected it or just hasn't gotten around to posting the poll/thread. Its not a busy forum so i'd assume the former.

6th · 29-03-2008 11:45pm

You assume wrong. Busy week with alot of drama. Alot of thought is going into it and I'll be blathering on about it tomorrow.

Voodu Child · 30-03-2008 12:08am

6th wrote: »

You assume wrong.

You know what they say about assumption... :pac: Happy to be wrong, but there was reason for my assumption - you made completely contradictory remarks in the days following our PM agreement.

Good to see the issue is under consideration in any case.
Regards,

Hennessy · 30-03-2008 1:02am

6th wrote: »

You assume wrong. Busy week with alot of drama. Alot of thought is going into it and I'll be blathering on about it tomorrow.

WWman hits nail on head.

Make the forum a hosted and private one..

TequilaMockingBird · 30-03-2008 9:34am

If I go to the DIY forum and ask someone how to change a washer on a tap, my local plumber looses the job.

Its the same thing, I can get the information if I want it. If I don't want to know how, I'll call the plumber.

This is his trade, can he ask Boards.ie not to reveal how to change a washer as it affects his business? I think not.

Hagar · 30-03-2008 10:16am

A plumber friend of mine loves DIYers.
He says he makes twice as much money fixing things that they have already "fixed".

30-03-2008 10:55am

sueme wrote: »

If I go to the DIY forum and ask someone how to change a washer on a tap, my local plumber looses the job.

Its the same thing, I can get the information if I want it. If I don't want to know how, I'll call the plumber.

This is his trade, can he ask Boards.ie not to reveal how to change a washer as it affects his business? I think not.

Not really.. DIY is pretty much `common knowledge' where as magicians tricks are def not..

Also, you pay a plumber to fix your tap, not create an illusion about fixing your tap...

Ponster · 30-03-2008 11:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, you pay a plumber to fix your tap, not create an illusion about fixing your tap...

Alas my last 2 plumbers were masters at the illusion of fixing....

nesf · 30-03-2008 12:54pm

Make the forum private, give access to whoever wants it. People googling Irish magic won't "stumble upon" the secrets and it allows people who are interested in the mechanics of this stuff to discuss it freely in relative privacy.

If it helps keep the peace in the forum, I don't see the problem with it. It's only if access was restricted that it might become a problem.

zuroph · 30-03-2008 1:39pm

Ponster wrote: »

Alas my last 2 plumbers were masters at the illusion of fixing....

that gave me my first laugh of the day

i split my lip

Asok · 30-03-2008 3:14pm

I just cannot read this thread without of thinking of this http://gobbluth.ytmnd.com/

Rb · 30-03-2008 6:49pm

nesf wrote: »

Make the forum private, give access to whoever wants it. People googling Irish magic won't "stumble upon" the secrets and it allows people who are interested in the mechanics of this stuff to discuss it freely in relative privacy.

If it helps keep the peace in the forum, I don't see the problem with it. It's only if access was restricted that it might become a problem.

+1

RoundyMooney · 30-03-2008 7:01pm

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of disclosing magic "secrets" (personally I don't see an issue), it seems that some people do.

If the over riding wish of the users is that the forum is to be made private, who are we to argue?

I think private fora can be a pain in the hole, and do encourage cliquery, but in a case like this, such a move could be warranted.

Ask the users what they want is my take on it.

6th · 30-03-2008 7:08pm

Its its made private and people have to ask for access then it will die a death, or at the very least it will fail to grow to the extent I believe it is capable of. Alot of people could gain an interest in it just by happening acros it and this can only be a good thing surely?

As with any artform it is, imo, predisposed to elitism - my background is in fine art and I have seen how poisonous that can be.

I'll address the Op issues now.

6th · 30-03-2008 7:25pm

zuroph wrote: »

I have a number of issues with this board.
1) Trick sharing is encouraged and videos have already been linked to.

For me the main word here is sharing and from my experience on Boards thats the very heart of this place. Sharing of information can be done in a way which will help the communities (magical & boards) grow. Yes videos have been posted, videos made by magicians I presume? Be them professionals or enthusiastic amateurs .... neither can claim have more rights when it comes to a discussion forum such as Boards.

zuroph wrote: »

The secret of how a trick is done is the value of the product which the magician hopes to sell. posting reveals is tantamount to theft of that product. If the boards.ie community do not discuss torrents or illegal methods of getting tv, then illegal sharing of magic secrets should not be tolerated either.

Most of this the above quote is bull as has already been pointed out. Telling how all tricks are done is not illegal. If you see one which is copyrighted then report the post and it will be dealt with, but be prepared to be asked to give proof.

zuroph wrote: »

2) Two of the moderators admittedly have no magic experience? Surely there are better suited candidates, than two novices who encourage trick sharing and take my complaints re that as an attack on them.

Show me were one of the mods took it as a personal attack? As for qualified to mod the forum, what do you think a mod needs to know? R3nu4l and myself have a fair bit of experiences of how this place runs. Modding is about cleaning up, stepping in were needed and basically keeping an eye on the place. I for one see myself as a user of that forum first and a mod second. We both have an interest in the area but we are not required to be qualified, nor are any mods on here in the areas they look after.

We're both very approachable and active on Boards so if there are any issues they will be dealt with quickly and to the best of our ability.

zuroph wrote: »

Across the internet there are numerous magic forums, and all the good ones strictly prohibit secret sharing. admittedly there are some sites that do allow this, but have a quick look around, legal action has been taken and will be taken again by the big magic sites. If your mods for this forum had been familiar with the regular online magic community, they would have known this.

You have a preference for how some forums do it, thats great but not all forums have to be the same. As I said above if something comes up with you think is breaking some laws the report the posts. Has anything thats been posted yet broken any laws? Most likely not so there is not a problem. You just saaid the forum should be locked straight away because something might happen.

zuroph wrote: »

If a magic fourm is to exist on boards, in my opinion, it needs much stricter controls. magic is not just a hobby, for many its a livelyhood, the last thing i need is to do a trick at work on a saturday night, only to find the person asking how it was done on here sunday morning, and getting a response.

Magic is just a hobby for some and they (such as myself) have as much of a right to practice as Houdini himself! Look at the music forums, yes there are experienced professionals there but they share their knowledge without assuming that the amateurs are out to steal the food from their tables. Same with Photography and many more.

Now I'll get back to this again shortly. I have family things to take care of but am usually alot more active than the last few days.

Magic/illusions board..

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