Magic/illusions board..

6th

6th wrote: »

Its its made private and people have to ask for access then it will die a death, or at the very least it will fail to grow to the extent I believe it is capable of. Alot of people could gain an interest in it just by happening acros it and this can only be a good thing surely?

I doubt that - have the main forum for all other discussion with clear messages in the charter about the 'spoiling' of tricks and where to post such content..

Best of both worlds tbh

6th

I was adressing the suggestion that the whole forum be made private. I have already said a sub-forum could work further down the road.

humanji

I +1 the idea of a private sub-forum that discusses technique. It's the best of both worlds.

On a more important matter, I just realised 6th was made mod. I thought there was a whole running joke about him never being made a mod. It's like an era of Boards has ended

zuroph

i would gladly welcome a subforum.

as for the forum improving the interest in magic, surely this would happen irrelevant of whether trick secrets are exposed or not. I would gladly help out someone who has shown a keen interest in magic, but wouldnt want my help which i posted for him/her to be available for EVERYONE to read.

Yeah 6th,in fairness to magicians,I think all discussion of tricks and secrets should be in a private sub forum,with access given strictly to the artists or those that want to join the profession.
Magic is supposed to be magic and it's a deservedly protected art form.
If everybody can do it ,it loses it's magic.
That would be a shame.

GuanYin

Apart from the rather old and ridiculous anti-6th sentiment (I enjoy bashing him as much as the next poster, but it's getting old people) I don't see any reason that new unproven forum should be moved to hosted forum or made private (althoughit does have a nice "secret magic stuff" ring to it.

If it is REALLY, I mean REALLY an issue, why not just create a stick thread, indicate in the rules and thread title that that is the only place where secrets can be posted and that people enter the thread at their own risk and then just set the charter to only allow secrets to be posted there.

Or just mark the thread titles with SPOILER SECRETS for those threads.

My god, you have restraint people, you can choose to read the threads or not if it bothers you so much.

r3nu4l

Oh For F**K Sake! I go away to a wedding on Friday at 16.30 and before midnight there's a Feedback thread!! :mad:

Okay prepare for my take on it!

zuroph wrote: »

I
2) Two of the moderators admittedly have no magic experience? Surely there are better suited candidates, than two novices who encourage trick sharing and take my complaints re that as an attack on them.

Who says I encourage trick-sharing? Did you ask me? No! I never even had a chance to respond to this. As a mod with no magic experience I have no bias or vested interest in M&I...but I am a good mod!

As it happens, I first saw discussion of this problem on the mod forum, here is my last response there.

r3nu4l on the Moderator forum wrote:

There are several practicing magicians using the forum and who signed up to boards.ie just so they could post in M&I.

Therefore, I think that we should put it to the membership rather than having 6th and myself just deciding that we are going to say "Yes" or "No" to discussing reveals.

That way, if the forum users decide they don't mind reveals being discussed we should be okay.

My personal view is that I don't particularly like reveals being posted based on the fact that I think magicians do work hard to perfect their technique. However, there are reveals all over YouTube and other sites and they are not hard to find.

Interestingly, on the day I was appointed as the forum co-mod, the first thing I did was to start this thread. I asked if the internet is killing magic by posting reveals. Not one of the forum magicians (apart from zuroph who posted much later) thought to say that they feel that internet "reveals" are wrong or shouldn't be allowed. A point I was hoping to discuss and the reason I started the thread in the first place!

Hagar wrote: »

Should we care about the legality or otherwise?
I mean if it's going to spoil the "magic" should we allow it?
All in all it might be best to make it a private forum if tricks being revealed is going to be an issue.

No to a private forum for M&I from me. I'll explain later...

JoseJones wrote: »

They're not my tricks, they have taken probably hours of hard work by someone to invent...I don't expect you to care cos you're not a magician, but, if you do give a **** about magic or magicians, then can we stop the discussion of method on the forum?

We can discuss this on the M&I forum in a while...I'll be starting a thread

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

since we appear to have hit a question on ethics and moral responsibility, why dont the mods of the forum simply put the question to those who post in the forum?

however, let it be said that while showing tricks may be annoying to other magicians, i fail to see whats wrong with it other than the ethical debate.
if th poll comes up in favour of keeping the lid on the tricks, then im sure the mods will respect the majority decision of the forum.

I agree completely with WWM! I'm very happy to ban "reveals" from the forum if that's what the majority want. I would go even further however and make the poll public so that I can see how many of the posters who are also 'performing magicians' don't want reveals because I particularly want these people to feel at home in the forum. The forum should celebrate these performers.

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of disclosing magic "secrets" (personally I don't see an issue), it seems that some people do.

If the over riding wish of the users is that the forum is to be made private, who are we to argue?

I think private fora can be a pain in the hole, and do encourage cliquery, but in a case like this, such a move could be warranted.

Ask the users what they want is my take on it.

Again, no to a private forum from me. M&I is a very interesting subject and there is loads to discuss apart from 'reveals'. If we want to discuss reveals then we are restriciting access and discussion on M&I only to people who 'perform' as magicians. I want everyone on boards.ie to be able to comment on M&I.

I have no objections to a second forum 'M&I performers' being created and made private. That way magicians and illusionists could freely discuss their methods.

I'll be starting a thread on the M&I forum once I've had a chance to discuss some things with 6th.

I understand your frustration zuroph (and the others who agree with his POV!). I'd like to address them to make sure that the users are happy because at the end of the day it's the users forum not mine. I'm only the mod, there to make sure that there's no spam, no personal abuse and that the forum is kept clean and free of mentions of the unmentionables!

6th

zuroph wrote: »

i would gladly welcome a subforum.

Same issue with regards to the posting of protected material would apply though. I dont see how this would solve the problem (not that I think there is one) it would only lessen it - basically only "magicians" would be able to look at this illegal material? Public Forum or Private Sub-Forum the same rules applies ... dont post protected material and if you see some report it.

zuroph wrote: »

as for the forum improving the interest in magic, surely this would happen irrelevant of whether trick secrets are exposed or not.

Yes I agree but as I've said the purpose of the forum is not purely to share tricks. Infact look at the forum as it is and tell me how many laws have been broken so far? Not 1 post has been reported yet so a problem which doesnt exist has just been pulled out of thin air .... thats magic!!

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah 6th,in fairness to magicians,I think all discussion of tricks and secrets should be in a private sub forum

Nope. A rule about spoiler tags will be put in place and if anyone sees a post they have a problem with then report it. Again no posts have been reported so far so clearly people dont have a problem with any of the current content.

Deleted User wrote: »

with access given strictly to the artists or those that want to join the profession.

So how do we police who is a magician? I could come on here and pretend to be a 15 year old school boy. If someone is using the forum then they have an interest, no matter what what level they want to achieve they have the right. I for one do not want to promote elitism.

Deleted User wrote: »

Magic is supposed to be magic and it's a deservedly protected art form.
If everybody can do it ,it loses it's magic.
That would be a shame.

Who decides who should and shouldnt be allowed do magic? I purely want to do it for my kids, thats as deserving as someone who wants to make a living from it. Maybe we should make people get a licence?

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

Apart from the rather old and ridiculous anti-6th sentiment (I enjoy bashing him as much as the next poster, but it's getting old people) I don't see any reason that new unproven forum should be moved to hosted forum or made private (althoughit does have a nice "secret magic stuff" ring to it.

You dont see a reason? Thats because there isn't one The forum is going along nicely despite these teething problems.

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

If it is REALLY, I mean REALLY an issue, why not just create a stick thread, indicate in the rules and thread title that that is the only place where secrets can be posted and that people enter the thread at their own risk and then just set the charter to only allow secrets to be posted there.

Or just mark the thread titles with SPOILER SECRETS for those threads.

My god, you have restraint people, you can choose to read the threads or not if it bothers you so much.

I have addressed the issue about spoiler tags and warnings on the forum already and will be amending the charter to suit. Spoilers will be enforced on the forum but as with any forum the mods will rely on reported posts to keep things in place.

I dont think the issue is people not wanting to see spoil posts its more that they dont want regular joes to be able to see them. The crap about breaking the law doesnt stand with me as I wouldn't allow that in a public or private forum. Also not all tricks are protected by law, I'd even question what % people think are?

I would like to see a private sub forum though were the more experienced can discuss the development of their own tricks etc. I'll look into it this morning.

Anyway I'm taking my side of it to the forum where I will amend the charter etc.

I think the OP over reacted with the whole law thing but apart from that everyone seem s to be enjoying the forum and being very reasonable.

6th

Damn it took me 12 miutes to post that and I missed r3nu4l's post - damn work getting in the way. Anyway we'll get it sorted soon enough

WhiteWashMan

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah 6th,in fairness to magicians,I think all discussion of tricks and secrets should be in a private sub forum,with access given strictly to the artists or those that want to join the profession.
Magic is supposed to be magic and it's a deservedly protected art form.
If everybody can do it ,it loses it's magic.
That would be a shame.

at what point is someone considered eligable to learn from the masters?

if the forum is about magic for magic users, then you either find a way to keep non magic users out of the forum, or you just understand that its open for everyone.

in which case, you should find out what all the users would prefer. the forum should not be run to the specifications of one or two persons.

take the hint. do the poll. respect what the people want.

Sherifu

Link to poll.
Should Reveals be posted on this forum?
- Yes, if they are not protected by law.
- No, they should never be posted publically
- Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

I had hoped it would be a poll on wether to make the forum private.

tbh

Sherifu wrote: »

Link to poll.
Should Reveals be posted on this forum?
- Yes, if they are not protected by law.
- No, they should never be posted publically
- Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

I had hoped it would be a poll on wether to make the forum private.

link doesn't work.

Sherifu

tbh wrote: »

link doesn't work.

Looks like it's been removed/deleted...

6th

The thread will be posted soon.

The forum will not be made private. A sub-forum for people to discuss the developement of their own work etc may get made.

tbh

6th wrote: »

The thread will be posted soon.

The forum will not be made private. A sub-forum for people to discuss the developement of their own work etc may get made.

isn't that what the poll is supposed to decide? Are you saying that if the majority of users want the forum made private, you'll just ignore them?

Sherifu

Indeed, let the M&I posters decide. It's their forum.

biko

Make poll public

6th

Reveals are a small part of what the forum is about, making a forum private just for that is a waste.

The problem here is reveals and thats what will be addressed.

6th

38 threads and 379 posts in Magic & Illusion Forum:

How many are reveals?

How much of the content suggest the forum should be made private?

How many are breaking the law?

Again, there are no reported post and therefore I presume no problem and nothing to act on.

The issue over reveals is being looked at.

Sherifu

Link I posted above works now.

WhiteWashMan

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

at what point is someone considered eligable to learn from the masters?

if the forum is about magic for magic users, then you either find a way to keep non magic users out of the forum, or you just understand that its open for everyone.

in which case, you should find out what all the users would prefer. the forum should not be run to the specifications of one or two persons.

take the hint. do the poll. respect what the people want.

ignore all i said. it appears that several posts were made in the 25 minutes it took me to type this message

zuroph

Thanks r3nu4l, nice to see that someone is willing to listen to our side, and understand magic traditions.

6th

zuroph, I took the time to address your comments could you do the same with mine? Posts 61 and 80 specifically.

6th

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

at what point is someone considered eligable to learn from the masters?

Anyone got an answer for this?

tbh

6th wrote: »

Anyone got an answer for this?

it's not a valid question. I don't think anyone has said that access should be restricted to people who fit certain criteria, as a matter of fact I think anyone who has said that the forum should be private has also said that access should be there for anyone who wants it. Making it private will stop the information being accessed by google. This would mean that the OP's concerns (which do have some merit, whatever one's opinions on the subject) will have been addressed, and the concern you have that anyone who wants access to the information should have it. So it's not a case of deciding "who gets to learn" - because anyone who wants to can. They just have to ask.

This, on my part, isn't an argument in favour of elitism, nor is it an argument that information about legal activities shouldn't be freely available on the web. What it is is a compromise, and to be honest, I can't see any other reason for you wanting to ignore it other than you think it would diminish your personal standing (which it wouldn't).

If the regulars of the forum (and cards on the table, I'm not one of them) want it private, then it's not up to you to say it shouldn't be. You are there to serve, not lead and I think some of the statements you've made on this thread would legitimately lead users to believe that no matter what they want, it's your opinion that counts - and I think, in fairness, that that attitude isn't helping.

OTOH, If the regulars of the forum want it public, then OP, you have to deal with it.

But at least make the decision openly.

zuroph

sorry, 6th, did not realise they werent rhetorical

my use of the word illegal may have been out of place in this instance. my basis for this is on hundreds of tricks which i have bought many of which will carry a disclaimer saying something along the lines of "this trick is supplied to you on the basis that you do not reveal its workings. the value of the trick is the secret of how it works, therefore you may not return the trick once opened".

as for privatising the forum, i agree it would kill it, i think the sane solution is a subforum. as for who decides etc, its quite easy to weed out the sceptics looking to just work out tricks and never intending on performing them, only making life difficult for the magician next time they meet them. for example derren brown asks a question before access is given to his magician area.

my suggestion would be that a person would need at least ten-20 posts in the forum, and have demonstrated some knowledge or interest to learn. after enthusiasm like that, we cant stop people. the important part of a private subforum is that it doesnt show up on google searches, and that the reveal or method discussion isnt there for hecklers to read etc.

tbh

zuroph wrote: »

my suggestion would be that a person would need at least ten-20 posts in the forum, and have demonstrated some knowledge or interest to learn. after enthusiasm like that, we cant stop people. the important part of a private subforum is that it doesnt show up on google searches, and that the reveal or method discussion isnt there for hecklers to read etc.

I think this is a perfect solution, which would keep everyone happy.

6th

As I've said I support a sub-forum for practioneers to discuss their work and development of new ideas etc.

I'll try get it sorted today but may take a while.

r3nu4l

zuroph wrote: »

my suggestion would be that a person would need at least ten-20 posts in the forum, and have demonstrated some knowledge or interest to learn. after enthusiasm like that, we cant stop people. the important part of a private subforum is that it doesnt show up on google searches, and that the reveal or method discussion isnt there for hecklers to read etc.

I like this idea a lot

tbh wrote: »

I think this is a perfect solution, which would keep everyone happy.

Yup, Quoted for Truth

For the record, I think 6th was trying to listen to your side zuroph, he very much wants this forum to work and it wouldn't be here without his championing/harassing/offering sexual favours to the Admins to get it

I think that things just got a little out of hand and moved very quickly. A lot of forums have teething problems when they start, this is just one of those things. We'll get it sorted soon. The thread is open on M&I so please offer opinion there but let's try to keep it on track and constructive so we can move on to discussing Paul Daniels and the lovely Debbie McGee

tbh

r3nu4l wrote: »

A lot of forums have teething problems when they start, this is just one of those things.

yes, agreed, that's all it is. You've both handled the feedback well, I'm just saying that a Mod saying stuff like "this isn't going to happen" is a bit of a feedback-thread killer