Article: Is Science Faith Based

leaba

Brian,

Tarzan is just a book. Fiction made up by someone with a wider view than the fictional character it describes. In my imagination, it's more likely Tarzan would've decided that since he can make wind with his mouth, there's probably a wind god somewhere making the wind that he experiences.

In fact, if he had any peers he'd probably be punished for suggesting anything else. If it ever got very windy it would clearly be his fault for angering the wind god.

We're pretty sure there's no wind god. How does this affect your God hypothesis?

cavedave

lostexpectation
is the existance of god the only thing the not falsifiable

No there are loads of non falsifiable hypothesis. To take some examples

Certain parts of string theory in physics may be non falsifiable. If this is the case (and i do not know enough about it to say it is) then string theory is not a scientific theory

Martial arts. "We cannot fight for real because then we would kill everyone". Not exactly non falsifiable but certainly suspicious.

When psychic phenonomen are experimentally tested they disappear. This has lead some to claim "When you test ESP it disappears" or some such. Like when A TV showman goes "this does not always work, the power comes and goes". This would make ESP a non falsifable hypothesis.

Anyone who closes off experimental observation off their actions should be viewed with suspicion. So for example when a law is brought in I think we should ask "What measurable change will this make and if it does not will you repeal it?".

Tim_Murphy

Martial arts. "We cannot fight for real because then we would kill everyone". Not exactly non falsifiable but certainly suspicious.

Martial arts are actually a great activity to look at how the scientific method is and often isn't used, and the effects that has. There are quite striking differences between ones that follow the scientific method and ones which do not. Both in terms of the end product of the training and in the influence it has on the people involved.

leaba

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Martial arts are actually a great activity to look at how the scientific method is and often isn't used, and the effects that has. There are quite striking differences between ones that follow the scientific method and ones which do not. Both in terms of the end product of the training and in the influence it has on the people involved.

Boards DO hit back!

Tim_Murphy

leaba wrote: »

Boards DO hit back!

:eek:

Tim Robbins

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Martial arts...

alright Tim, how's it going?

c0rk3r

Your deluded yourself wicknight. Your sounding like your putting too much faith into science instead of religion. Which is just as bad

Your simply exchanging one dream for another. In 20/30/40 years science will come up with new models of understanding and you'll awaken to consciousness again unsure if your actually awake or not. A continual cycling of sleep walking until your dead. And what did you really know anyway. Nothing thats what. Your a negative grumpy old man who just sits backs and critising everything without the orginality of your own ideas. Its easy to be a critic.

Zombrex

c0rk3r wrote: »

Its easy to be a critic.

And fun too.

Zillah

c0rk3r wrote: »

Your simply exchanging one dream for another. In 20/30/40 years science will come up with new models of understanding and you'll awaken to consciousness again unsure if your actually awake or not. A continual cycling of sleep walking until your dead. And what did you really know anyway. Nothing thats what. Your a negative grumpy old man who just sits backs and critising everything without the orginality of your own ideas. Its easy to be a critic.

I don't think science is right because [insert wish washy crap about science having been wrong before]. Some day in the future you'll find that [insert extremely well supported theory] was wrong all along. I prefer to think that [insert absurdly unlikely supernatural scenario] is true. Who are you to say I'm wrong, after all [refer again to science having been foolish enough to self-regulate].

c0rk3r

Zillah wrote: »

Some day in the future you'll find that [insert extremely well supported theory] was wrong all along.

Thats the only thing in your post which in anyway reflects what i said above. Its becoming rather pathetic anytime someone critises science theres an automatic knee-jerk to assume this person is a theist fool. Then try deconstruct what there trying to say and try ridicule them.

Take your atheist tinted glasses off and try doing what science does and look at things abjectively even if thats to look inward at itself. Its infuriating someone misquoting and putting words into your mouth. Its dishonest, disingenuous and makes you look like an tosser.

Dades

Maybe had you post been more specific, it could have been de-constructed more accurately.

<mod> And consider yourself warned against any more personal abuse. </mod>

Zombrex

c0rk3r wrote: »

Its becoming rather pathetic anytime someone critises science theres an automatic knee-jerk to assume this person is a theist fool.

Who said you were a theist?

Anyway, what was the point of your original post? What ever it was must have been lost in the long list of personal insults you directed towards me. You appear to be saying I put too much faith in science instead of religion, what ever that means.

As Dades says, do you care to be a bit more specific and then people might be able to respond to you properly.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Martial arts are actually a great activity to look at how the scientific method is and often isn't used, and the effects that has. There are quite striking differences between ones that follow the scientific method and ones which do not. Both in terms of the end product of the training and in the influence it has on the people involved.

don't mean to take the thread off topic, but could you elaborate on that a little? or provide with linkage to further reading?

cavedave

Mordeth

don't mean to take the thread off topic, but could you elaborate on that a little? or provide with linkage to further reading?

Might it be worth starting a new thread? "Paranormal powers in martial arts" or some such? On this forum if people or interested but in science/paranormal either.

AtomicHorror

As a scientist, my take on faith is this.

I need to have faith that the universe exists outside of my mind. Since I cannot prove it is otherwise, this faith is perhaps redundant. I need to have faith that my fellow humans (and by extension scientists) also have minds independent of and similar to my own. Similarly, this faith is perhaps irrelevant since I cannot prove otherwise. I must have faith, as the article states, that the universe follows rules that can be comprehended by humans and modelled.

There is no other faith required that I can think of.

If we had faith in our initial assumptions (hypotheses), we would not need to test them. Our initial position is not one of faith, but of skepticism.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well.. not paranormal, I'm banned from there.

AtomicHorror

Wicknight wrote: »

Theists have defined God as untestable, it is then a bit rich to turn around and complain that science is ignoring their god.

Science is ignoring your god because your religion has defined your god in such a way that he can never be tested by science in the first place. Therefore science ignores him.

Beautifully put. I believe God is quoted somewhere as specifically forbidding us to test Him. What exactly are the good Christian followers of Intelligent Design doing?

Zillah

c0rk3r wrote: »

Thats the only thing in your post which in anyway reflects what i said above.

Its the sentiment I was attacking. You tosser.


I get one insult for free, right?

Its becoming rather pathetic anytime someone critises science theres an automatic knee-jerk to assume this person is a theist fool.

I said nothing about theism. It wasn't knee jerk. You made a uselessly vague attack on science/scientific theories, so I paraphrased the kind of things people usually deploy in such drive bys. All of which are uselessly vague and similarly misguided. The fact that scientific models have been adapted as new information appears in no way means that we should assume our current models are invalid.

Dades

Hmmm. Next insult (veiled or not) from anyone gets a ban.

Tim_Murphy

Mordeth wrote: »

don't mean to take the thread off topic, but could you elaborate on that a little? or provide with linkage to further reading?

I don’t the topic is actually entirely off topic for this thread.

Some martial arts and how they train are quite scientific, although the people involved may or may not realise this. People use what works, and testing what you do is just part and parcel of the training, within the training itself, and externally through competition. Generally martial arts that are sporting are like this (not always though). I train in mixed martial arts (UFC style competition) and we constantly evaluate and test what we do, bost in terms of techniques/tactics and training methods. If we didn’t then the results would be plain to see when we competed.

Other martial arts work in a closed loop, little or no testing of what is being taught and no external validation. These arts do not evolve in a natural way but instead they generally become more and more abstract. Students are taught techniques and they have no idea if they work or not because they have never seen them tested for real. Indeed often the idea of even trying these techniques on resisting opponents would be seen are strange. There are different types of rationalisations for this. These martial arts can range from the harmless to the down right weird. I’ve come across people who absolutely believe in touch, or even no touch KOs. Indeed these KOs do seem to work, but only against believers of course. There are plenty of clips of them on youtube, an all time favourite is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1nzD-n25Q&feature=related
This would be an extreme example of course but hopefully you get the idea. From the outside looking in many martial arts practises seem absurd but for those on the inside they are usually not so easy to see. Cult like attitudes, cult of personality, and pseudoscientific thinking are all very common in the martial arts world. Even what you could call religious type thinking in some cases.