Has Skill Disappeared? - Baggio says "yes"

Mr. Presentable

http://www.goal.com/en/articolo.aspx?contenutoid=641500

Calcio Debate: Is Baggio Right - Has Skill Disappeared From Football?
Italy legend Roberto Baggio launched a scathing attack against the modern game at the weekend, saying that all the skill was being replaced by pace and power. Carlo Garganese asks if the former European and World Footballer of the Year is right…

What has happened to the beautiful game? There used to be a time when the first thing a footballer was judged by was his technical ability.

After this, the order of importance would be tactical, mental, and then finally physical qualities. This was the process that was used in most European countries, although not in all. England has always been an exception, something I can vouch for personally as I was released by Luton Town (who had then just been relegated from the top-flight) as a skillful teenager because I was told I was “too small, short, and weak”.

Ever since this time I have always held the view that, not only the English youth system, but English football as a whole, has totally neglected skill and natural talent, in favour of pace, power, strength and other physical attributes. Indeed this helps explain why the country has always been so dreadfully poor on a technical level.

While England has always placed physical attributes as the primary consideration when judging a player, other European countries, such as Spain and Italy, have traditionally favored the aforementioned technical aspect.

Sadly, the way the game is evolving, it seems that there is an inevitable process in place whereby the blood-and-thunder English way is becoming the norm throughout Europe.

“It is all much faster and more difficult now," blasted Baggio.

"In the 1990s it was more than the 80s, now even more than the 90s. It is the evolution of the sport and we have to follow it. However, one cannot criticize a player for trying a backheel during a game. Are we crazy?”

People that play today are - in most cases- athletes first, and footballers second. The desire to become quicker, fitter and stronger is destroying the game. All the skill, as Baggio says, is disappearing.

The classic ‘number 10’, the shirt and the position that every footballer growing up used to desire, is virtually extinct. The Italian national team exemplifies this perfectly. Over the years they have produced numerous world-class number 10s, the likes of Gianni Rivera, Sandro Mazzola, Baggio, and most recently Francesco Totti. At this summer’s European Championships, Coach Roberto Donadoni is set to employ a 4-3-3 formation, meaning that Italy will be playing with no creative support striker.

You look at the major teams around Europe, and many seem to favour a big, strong, man-mountain of a target man. Arsenal have Emmanuel Adebayor, Chelsea have Didier Drogba, Inter field Zlatan Ibrahimovic, and I predict that within five years it will be rare to see a top club or country with a striker who is below six foot.

Height is becoming important. A team with short players is liable to concede goals off set-pieces and crosses – thus once again the lumbering giant is preferred to the shorter, skilful player. Take the Chelsea or Inter Milan teams who are absolutely full to the rafters with 6 foot-plus machines.

Today, squads are also considered to be fragile unless they have two defensive midfielders in the middle-of-the-park. To be a good centre midfielder is to be able to run, run and run some more. A player like Momo Sissoko, wouldn’t have even made it into the semi-professional league in Italy a few decades ago, yet today he is being tipped by some to become one of the best midfield men in the whole of Serie A.

In modern football you can have the flair and natural talent of Diego Maradona, but if you have no pace, nobody wants to know you. Take Juan Roman Riquelme for example. If he was around in the 1980s, he would have had every top team in Italy and Spain queuing up to build their team around him. Riquelme is a genius, he sees passes that athletes like Sissoko would take 30 years to spot, yet he is unwanted because he is considered too slow for the modern game.

Former Spain and Barcelona star Josep Guardiola was a fantastic holding playmaker, but he had the pace of a snail. The player’s career can be split into two parts. During the first half, when football was still pure, he was simply world class and one of the best midfielders in the world. However towards the end of the 1990s, there was a sudden decline in his performances (injuries also played a part). The game had simply become too fast and physical for him, something he admitted himself, and Barcelona eventually let him go in 2001 at the age of just 30.

Of course there are always phenomenon’s who disprove this theory, but these are becoming rarer all the time. The best example of course is Zinedine Zidane, an old-school player like Riquelme, with very little pace or physical quality, yet who was far and away the best player of his generation, and was still sensational at the 2006 World Cup at the age of 34. The fact that Zidane excelled in such an era proves what a legend among legends he is. Andrea Pirlo is another exception, but even he has found himself in situations where he has been physically bullied, such as against Arsenal in the Champions League recently.

Baggio believes that the only place in the world where football is still football is South America, a continent where players are footballers first, and athletes second.

“In South America more than Europe they are much closer to the authentic spirit of football,” said the 1994 World Cup star. “This is why I adore Leo Messi.”

Cristiano Ronaldo and Thierry Henry are two excellent examples of the modern day player. Both, when in form, are world class performers, but ask yourself how good they would be if you remove the pace and physical features from their games. Some would also place Kaka in this category.

Wayne Rooney, over the weekend, compared Manchester United to the old Brazil due to the way the teams play. The difference is that the great Brazil teams have played with irresistible skill, technique and panache, while The Red Devils' game is at a high intensity, quickly zipping the ball about, and counter-attacking at a lightning pace.

I am unconvinced that either Ronaldo or Henry would have been world-class in the slower, and more technical/tactical oriented 1980s. On the same token you could probably find numerous players from that generation who wouldn’t have coped today – Brazilian legend Socrates is perhaps one.

The question is though – who would you consider more of a real footballer – Socrates or Henry?

Call me old-school, but I am sure that most football purists will agree that football was much better when it was slower and less athletic.

What are your views on this topic? Is Roberto Baggio right - has skill disappeared from modern football? What examples, like Riquelme, can you find of brilliant players who are being forced out because of their physical deficiencies? Was football better when it was slower?

Mitch Connor

Excellent article, and he does have valid points.

Take away Ronaldo's pace and power, and you would not be left with much - great control and quick feet - but it is his pace and power that allow him to utilise those aspects of his game - same with Henry.

I would never have considered Ibrahimovic as a man mountain target man though....

I think Paul Scholes is a good example - a slow, small asmathic kid, but one blesssed with incredable awareness and ability on the ball - there are stories that say people thought United were mad to put so much faith in him.

To be honest, this article touches on so much, it is very hard to put a post together in response. In England, for example, you'd be talking about the make up of the Arsenal and Pompey sides, Chelsea's dominating phsyical pressence, Lampards merits, Gerrards merits, Ronaldo and Roooney's merits. Condition of pitches and weather conditions. The 'English Mentality'. Rio Ferdinand vs John Terry. Economics and finalcial reward - risk of failure.

There is just SOOOO much to discuss in relation to the evolution of football. I'm sure this will become a very popular and varied topic.

Mr. Presentable

I think it's depressing. I have posted my feelings on the death of technique in the soccer forum before - basically the joy has all but gone from the game for me, and I feel sad for the fans who came into the game during the "premiership years".

ditpoker

i dont get it...??

if you take away christiano ronaldo's height, strength, skill, power, talent, football boots... he wouldnt be good at football!?

if you have the best skill in the world, but you get beaten by a stronger tougher player, then HE is the better player, cos he.. eh... beat you?!

have i fallen for an april fools joke i dont get!?

estebancambias

Such an amazing article, and while I agree with a lot of stuff, there is also some things I disagree with.

I'm a bit puzzled by him calling Ibrahimovic a big powerful striker, in fact Ibrahimovic is the sort of player that he is talking about.

Mitch Connor

nipplenuts wrote: »

I think it's depressing. I have posted my feelings on the death of technique in the soccer forum before - basically the joy has all but gone from the game for me, and I feel sad for the fans who came into the game during the "premiership years".

Do you refer to the premiership simply as a means of defining a time frame, or because you feel it is to blame?

Personally - i think English football is a lot mor eskillfull and tactically aware then it was in the 70's or 80's or even through the 90's. The influx of foreign players has increased the overall technical ability in the premiership imo. However, I do think the money the premiershi[p has brought with it is a contributing factor to the percentages football we see played so often - the fear of failure and the financial heartbreak it brings with it is oftne more then enough to see teams revert to 4-5-1 formations with two big and imposing holding midfielders and a busy niggly central striker in order to play for the draw while hoping for the win. If the financial penalty for relegation, or the financial difference between the clubs in the prem/championship and even within the prem itself was not as big, would teams be more willing to go for the win and play 'proper' football?

Mitch Connor

ditpoker wrote: »

i dont get it...??

if you take away christiano ronaldo's height, strength, skill, power, talent, football boots... he wouldnt be good at football!?

if you have the best skill in the world, but you get beaten by a stronger tougher player, then HE is the better player, cos he.. eh... beat you?!

have i fallen for an april fools joke i dont get!?

no - you just don't get it, seemingly.

Why is physical pressence a determining factor in the ability of a footballer. Is Diop better than Paul Scholes becuase he is bigger/faster/stronger? This is what Baggio is talking about - how skillfull players are being pushed out of the game because they are not athletic enough to keep up.

I think Ronaldo is a poor example to use because he has great technique. However, there are players who make up for a lack of footballing ability by being man mountains, or having great stamina or pace.

Look at pompey for examply - look at how the majority of their squad is assembled. Massive, strong and phsyically imposing, with the odd slight player such as Defoe or Krankjar. Pompey are a very tough side to play, cause they are a damn tough side.

Eirebear

Tauren wrote: »

Look at pompey for examply - look at how the majority of their squad is assembled. Massive, strong and phsyically imposing, with the odd slight player such as Defoe or Krankjar. Pompey are a very tough side to play, cause they are a damn tough side.

But this has been the case in football for...well....ALWAYS
The further down the leagues you go, the more big bruisers your gonna find.

Technical ability will always come to the fore at the top level of the game, to use Christiano Ronaldo as an example of a big player is ludicrous IMO.

PHB

The best players are always going to be the ones with great technical skills and great physical abilities.
Ronaldo has pace and power, Messi is extremely quick, as is Kaka, who is also tall and strong. Rooney is typically an English talent, because he uses his strength and pace a lot, while also having extreme talent.

The issue for me is other players, who are more atheletes than footballers.

DerekD Goldfish

Very Interesting article
Having grown up and stating supporting football in the ealry 90's
I dont have the same amount of knoledge of the game before then but Even since the 90's I can see a significant change.
Its not the old footballers were better or worse then the current crop just the sport has changed and what it require in players has also changed.
With the money coming into the game in recent years it was always going to become more professional and as a result more fitness orientated while to a certain extent the UK and Ireland have made some improvements technically the number of "Flair" players in the game seems to have reduced
People often say the same about mens tenis how the game has become so fast and powerfull Borg and other players of the 70/80's coundt compete in the modern day game.
In many ways in unfortunate extra couching at lower level can only help so much with Fans/Sponsors demanding instant results the rush to become the fittest most powerful team around will continue not to say there arent skillfull players anymore just that its far more important that they can run 100m in 11s then it used to be.

Mr. Presentable

Tauren wrote: »

Do you refer to the premiership simply as a means of defining a time frame, or because you feel it is to blame?

No, I don't think it is to blame. It's just that for many people that is their only reference point, so it is normal to see athleticism as the standard and not be so familiar with technical ability. Players not mentioned in the article that I think typify what Baggio is talking about from the recent past, Liam Brady, Michel Platini, extraordinary players, but would be bullied today. Or Luca Tony and Peter Crouch - they'd barely have made the pro leagues when Brady played.

dc69

nipplenuts wrote: »

To be a good centre midfielder is to be able to run, run and run some more. A player like Momo Sissoko, wouldn’t have even made it into the semi-professional league in Italy a few decades ago, yet today he is being tipped by some to become one of the best midfield men in the whole of Serie A.

hahahahahahahhahaha (is that an april fools joke?)

If Momo sissoko is being tipped as the future best midfielder in serie A,then Dunphy is right and we may aswell forget serie A.lol

I stopped reading after that!

iregk

DC69 your missing the point completely.

Baggio is a known critic of Sissoko, look at the comment regarding him -v- riquelme. What he is pointing out is that Sissoko is the way the game has gone.

Sticking with the prem as thats what most people know here lets look at it. United team in the 90's played predominantly with a defensive player Keane and an attacking palyer Scholes. Teams today play with two holding players. Makalele Essien. Alonso Masch etc... He is refering to the differences in opinion that someone like Pirlo and Riquelme are being pushed out and replaced by the likes of Sissoko and Masch.

Its a fantastic article and I have to say I agree with it completely. I've been saying for years that football is going more kick and rush and less emphasis is being put on tactical awareness and holding onto the ball.

Eirebear

All the best players in the world have been skillfull and classy but have also had a bit of dig about them, its generally what set them apart.

Someone mentioned Brady, hes a perfect example, he had bigs of skill...but he could also hold his own in a physical battle too.
Players like him, and souness plyed their trade fairly succesfully on the continent because of this.

The game has changed tactically, i completely agree....but the game always changes tactically.

There will always be room for a tricky, skillfull, classy player.....but look back through history and youll find that all the TRUE greats, had plenty of physical prowess also, even if it was the ability to get back up after being clobbered and do the same thing again.

Baggio's comments smack of an old man in a pub somplaining that it "wasnt like this in my day"

Pepe LeFrits

The article makes a few decent points about the changing nature of the game but...

Of course there are always phenomenon’s who disprove this theory, but these are becoming rarer all the time. The best example of course is Zinedine Zidane, an old-school player like Riquelme, with very little pace or physical quality, yet who was far and away the best player of his generation, and was still sensational at the 2006 World Cup at the age of 34.

Eh??? Zidane is/was well over six foot, very strong and quick.

The fact that Zidane excelled in such an era proves what a legend among legends he is. Andrea Pirlo is another exception, but even he has found himself in situations where he has been physically bullied, such as against Arsenal in the Champions League recently.

Bullied by the physical collossus that is Alex Hleb. Snigger.

Cristiano Ronaldo and Thierry Henry are two excellent examples of the modern day player. Both, when in form, are world class performers, but ask yourself how good they would be if you remove the pace and physical features from their games. Some would also place Kaka in this category.

Ask yourself how good Maradona would have been if he didn't have strong enough muscles in his legs to kick the football.

'Back in my day, this was all fields...'

Sqaull20

Bit unfair on C Ronaldo/Henry both are very technical and incredibly skillful, not just athletes...

Both would have made it big without the trackstar pace imo..

Its the likes of Cisse/ Darius Vassel that give athlete footballers a bad name...

Agree with Pepe, you wouldnt class Zidane in the old school footballler bracket like Fabregas, Scholes, Del Piero etc...

Zidane was a big man, had good acceleration in his younger days and was strong as a bull, he was an athlete with the skills of any player before him..

Argument by Baggio is stupid really, as all the all time greats had great physical powers, not just technical skills, which set them way apart from the rest...

dc69

iregk wrote: »

DC69 your missing the point completely.

Baggio is a known critic of Sissoko, look at the comment regarding him -v- riquelme. What he is pointing out is that Sissoko is the way the game has gone.

Sticking with the prem as thats what most people know here lets look at it. United team in the 90's played predominantly with a defensive player Keane and an attacking palyer Scholes. Teams today play with two holding players. Makalele Essien. Alonso Masch etc... He is refering to the differences in opinion that someone like Pirlo and Riquelme are being pushed out and replaced by the likes Sof Sissoko and Masch.

Its a fantastic article and I have to say I agree with it completely. I've been saying for years that football is going more kick and rush and less emphasis is being put on tactical awareness and holding onto the ball.

I know what he means,i just thought that was funny.

I dont agree at all

Messi
Kaka
Ronaldo
Torres

are all examples of young players who have huge levels of skill,having a big target man is only good if you are hoofing balls up the pitch,look at alot of the teams around esp utd and arsenal,barcelona etc all playing lovely football and passing to the feet of strikers.I understand what he means but thats life,although I wish the premier league was more skillfull,you just have to look at the majority of English players

although I think

Joe cole
Gerrard
Lampard
Scholes
Crouch (funnily skillful)
Rooney
etc


are all skillful,just maybe not as skillfull as other nations players.They are skillfull in a different way.If you put any of them in la liga im sure they could use some flair but the premier league isnt the best environment to be trying it.



also if you look at teams playing 2 defensive midfielders,they always have a playmaker eg lampard or gerrard.In liverpools case we have masch and alonso.Alonso can go foward and is more of a cm than a dm in my eyes.I think its more a case of teams playing a central midfielder,an attacking and a defensive.Its just a good way of playing these last few years

it doesnt mean negative football always!

Bubs101

I agree but I think it may be down to the fact that there aren't enough top quality skillful players around right now. Totti for me is by miles the best old school player but despite being my favourite player ever he probably isn't nearly as good as the old school number tens. Micheal Owen is an example of a small player without pace or strength but good technichally but he looks past it.

i think that if Joe Cole had grown up in a different country that had a tradition of number 10s he would be up there. He has all the attributes of one but was just unlucky that the position doesn't exist in England.

As for up and coming number 10s, Rosina looks very special when he's on the ball. Has a great pass

cm2000

I disagree with Baggio. I don't think the likes of riquelme stuggled in Europe. He took Villareal to a Champions League semi final and didnt look like he was being bullied. If anything I think the very best players require a superior skill level now than 10 or 20 years ago. Then, the likes of Fabregas would have had time and space to hit that perfect pass, but now he is forced to attemp this at 100 miles an hour, and to be skillfull and effective at that pace is a true test of greatness.

Mr. Presentable

dc69, I know you're doing your best, but you are still missing the point. What the little man is saying is that the priorities in Europe are pace, strength, size, and then maybe technique.

He's not having a go at the English. He's not having a go at C Ronaldo. He's not having a go at Chelsea. He is discussing the drift from skill to strength in football generally, not persons or clubs specifically.

Mr. Presentable

cm2000 wrote: »

I disagree with Baggio. I don't think the likes of riquelme stuggled in Europe. He took Villareal to a Champions League semi final and didnt look like he was being bullied. If anything I think the very best players require a superior skill level now than 10 or 20 years ago. Then, the likes of Fabregas would have had time and space to hit that perfect pass, but now he is forced to attemp this at 100 miles an hour, and to be skillfull and effective at that pace is a true test of greatness.

You're misreading the piece. Baggio doesn't mention Riquelme in it - the reporter, who is probably less than qualified, does.

dc69

nipplenuts wrote: »

dc69, I know you're doing your best, but you are still missing the point. What the little man is saying is that the priorities in Europe are pace, strength, size, and then maybe technique.

He's not having a go at the English. He's not having a go at C Ronaldo. He's not having a go at Chelsea. He is discussing the drift from skill to strength in football generally, not persons or clubs specifically.

i know and I have given a list of players that all posses skill,some immence and strength

It doesnt have to be a tradeoff,modern day players can have it all.It is leaning more towards strenght and pace but the elite players will always have it all.

Its his opinion that the leagues are changing from skill to pace and power.Barca are favourites this year and I see no power in their ranks.Maybe we are getting a new generation that have pace,strength and size.that his generation never had because they are now trained much better and clubs would be working with them since they were youngsters to improve all three atributes.

vorbis

I'd agree with Baggio on this. The big thing for me is the death of dribbling in the modern game. Sure players take on their opposite number every now and then but 95% of the time the tactic is pass or hoof.

Most managers now have very specific roles for players. Even at Arsenal, who play better football than most, players are under definite orders to keep passing the ball. Individual moments of skill appears to be frowned upon.

Maybe players are just too fit nowadays.

cm2000

vorbis wrote: »

I'd agree with Baggio on this. The big thing for me is the death of dribbling in the modern game. Sure players take on their opposite number every now and then but 95% of the time the tactic is pass or hoof.

Most managers now have very specific roles for players. Even at Arsenal, who play better football than most, players are under definite orders to keep passing the ball. Individual moments of skill appears to be frowned upon.

Maybe players are just too fit nowadays.

Then Alex Hleb must REALLY be frowned upon.

PHB

Individual moments of skill, which produces great goals, within a good system, which produces goals in normal ways, is what United base their play on.
It just depends on the club. Arsenal have individual moments of skill all the time, it's just that it's not some backheel or something, its a sublime 1 yard pass that nobody else can do. Hleb and Fabregas do that all the time. Just as much skill in that as anything else. Fabregas' has his moments of magic that are passes, while Rooney has his moments of magic that are volleys, but are equally impressive.

Eirebear

Every top football team manages to incorporate individual mometns of skill into their system, without them, their would be very little opportunity to go past opposition teams.

BaZmO*

I dunno, it just smacks of "jumpers for goalposts" to me.

The best example of course is Zinedine Zidane, an old-school player like Riquelme, with very little pace or physical quality

That bit there just makes a mockery of the piece.

And as for Ronaldo and Henry not being skillfull? WTF? Is this the same Ronaldo that scored with a backheel at the weekend? The same Ronaldo that's gotten dog's abuse for using nancy boy tricks?

And ask "how good (he)they would be if you remove the pace and physical features from (his)their games"?
I think you would find that he'd still have quite a few goals this season, what with his unskillful free kick taking abilities.

And Henry was also known for his ability to score from the odd back heel too and wasn't that shabby at freekicks.

I think Baggio might just be pining for the days when Serie A was the dominant league.

In my day......

cm2000

nipplenuts wrote: »

You're misreading the piece. Baggio doesn't mention Riquelme in it - the reporter, who is probably less than qualified, does.

fine then i disagree with the journalist and his interpretation of Baggio's comments. point still stands though

Call Me Jimmy

I really want to agree with the article but I can't. Obviously these faster, stronger players are more beneficial to a team if they have pushed these so called 'technical' players out of the game. If you are a manager of a team, you want to win games, and if brutish ***** are the way to do that (moreso than slow technical players) then your gonna want these brutes on yer team.

It's football's natural selection imo.

anonymous_joe

It's actually quite an interesting article.

I'm not sure I'd agree 100%, but I'd certainly agree to a large degree.

The first and most obvious problem is that not everyone can be skillful, but everyone can have their fitness improved.

People talk about the past as a golden era, which is slightly misleading. I just recently reread Tim Parks 'A Season With Verona' which is 7 or 8 years old by now, but he makes the point that 10 years or so previously, the difference between the big teams in Italy had been one of skill, that the Donadonis and Baggios and their colleagues at the big clubs had been smarter and more skillful than their weaker opponents, who resorted to fouling and violence, then he points out that modern greats are just as big, strong and aggressive, though they retain the skill.

Guys like Sissoko are battering rams, designed to run and run and run, making countless tackles and small passes. What sets them apart from their predecessors is fitness. There's no point dribbling by someone like a Vieira or Sissoko when you know they'll outpace you and muscle you off the ball. Managers know that too, so they stuff their midfields with big fast strong lads, leaving skill second. For weaker teams, it's a simple and obvious leap.

I'm a United fan, I like Rooney, and I like Ronaldo as players. Both of them are big lads, Rooney has the physique of a prop forward in potential, and Ronaldo's a big rangy guy. Certainly they're naturally talented, but their physiques are so impressive as well, that even without skill they could bash their way through many players. As a result you look for big strong defenders and midfielders too. This further squeezes out the skilled small bloke.

Like everyone who loves football, I love dribbling, and I lament it's apparent demise, but sadly that's been coming a long time. Compare someone from the 60s or 70s to a modern player and they appear ludicrously unfit. George Best looks handsome and talented, but he doesn't look ripped. The guys up against him could have been fitter too. Because they weren't he used natural pace and skill to run with the ball, whereas nowadays the option just wouldn't be there.

If anyone else has looked at the top 15 Serie A goals thread, you'll notice the Weah goal. It's a superb goal, but can you think of many teams in the Premiership these days who wouldn't have someone who'd have had the speed and strength to get back there and stop him?

The game was always going to evolve to the point of athletic perfection. Recently an article in teh Sunday Times mentioned that athletes at the 1896 games were probably using 70% of their natural physical fitness potential, nowadays scientific training methods allow closer to 99%. In any athletic competition, you'll demand to get your players to that level, and then seek skill.

Sad, but can anyone be truly shocked?

Jazzy

the rte pundits saying how "roma would be better off without totti tonight" is the kind of game thats played now in 2008.
unfortunate

Eirebear

Jazzy wrote: »

the rte pundits saying how "roma would be better off without totti tonight" is the kind of game thats played now in 2008.
unfortunate

Oops!:p

PHB

Yeh, well with Totti they beat us 2-1 at home, without him they lost 2-0. Do the math

Jazzy

PHB wrote: »

Yeh, well with Totti they beat us 2-1 at home, without him they lost 2-0. Do the math

exactly. they know nothing


spose the point i was trying to make was that the media and most of the fans arent looking at that technical aspect of ppls game as much as they used to.
Liam Brady was also saying how as a "neutral" he cant say ronnie is the best in the world atm because of his attitude and how he "gets up ur nose".
then 2 minutes later he jokes and says how he is head of arsenals youth development... neutral indeed. probably gets up his nose cos he keeps scoring goals and makes utd get more points in the PL then arsenal, his employers.

MisterAnarchy

Great article in general.
A few points I dont agree with but overall very true.
Oh for a dribbler in football nowadays.Wingers are all but extinct.
Football at the highest level is no longer the beautiful game.
Liverpool and Chelsea are symptomatic of the modern day malaise.
Huge,physical,highly organised teams but awful to watch.

Mitch Connor

PHB wrote: »

Yeh, well with Totti they beat us 2-1 at home, without him they lost 2-0. Do the math

didn't they have totti available for both group games - did they beat us?

Bubs101

Tauren wrote: »

didn't they have totti available for both group games - did they beat us?

Roma are the biggest big one man team in Europe by a mile