Israel demolishing Bedouin villages

Nathan Jones

wes wrote: »

So you have proof that the Bedouin are are doing all the thing you have mentioned above? Last I checked the Bedouin are not doing any of the stuff you mentioned above, no suicided bombing, no rockets firing into Israel etc. The Bedouin are citizens of Israel and simply enough are not being accorded equal rights. How is this the fault of Hamas?

Or is this another straw man that we have all come to know and love from the Zionist apologist camp.



Western media give Israel a pretty fair shake most of the time. Its just that Israel has a habit of doing pretty horrible things, while claiming to be a democratic western style state.

Anyway, the Guardian article got its information from the Human Rights Watch report.



Wow, an accusation of Anti-semitism. The odd thing is that the Bedouin are semitic as well, so people supporting equal rights for them can hardly be anti-semitic.

If there is any racism here, its Israel treatment of its Bedouin citizens. Why do you ignore the racism direct against them by the state of Israel?



How are the action of Hamas the fault of the Bedouin? Another ridiculous straw man.



Can you provide any example of terrorism by the Bedouin? Why do you ignore the racism directed against them by the state of Israel? What does the actions of Hamas have to do with the Bedouin? How is being anti-equal rights for the Bedouin equal to anti-terrorist? Wouldn't being against equal rights for the Bedouin be racist? Isn't equating Hamas to the Bedouin also racist (the only connection between the 2 being race)?

After your finished your rant did you see the term " This is off topic " I was'nt refering to the bedouins I was refering to the constant anti Israel vitrol on this thread......

As for the humans rights watch PMSL, another liberal left wing publisher of false facts, I am not saying it is not happening but the likes of amensty etc are extremely left wing anti semtic anti america anti israeli groups... its a pity you dont point anywhere to ethnic cleansing of christians in iraq,iran,pakistan...Turkish oppression of Kurds...it seems that if the israelis do anything they are zoomed in on because they are simply Jews surrounded by millions of their enemies who would like to see every jew dead.

Also if I am a Zionist have you a problem with it, if so you are no better than the apparent oppressors you are talking about !

Playboy

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Explain me this how is it that the Israelis are being labelled the facists etc... And Hamas and other groups openly opress their own people,restrict the freedom to speech, kill christians,send suicide bombers into israeli to kill innocent civilians not soliders,fire rockets at civilian area's and murder innocent civilians on both sides.

Also an article from the The Guardian is not fact and has being now to over exaggerate the facts on several occasions like most ant-israel western media.

Although the above is off topic the amount of anti israeli vitrol here is actually racists and proving that most posters here are anti semtic weither the know it or not...

So explain to me when the Israelis send truck loads of free supplies into the gaza strip and then when the final one goes in hamas attacks ??? Hypocrasy at its worst...

This whole thread is one sided and racist to the bone as it seems okay to be anti israeli but if you are anti terrorist you are shot down, I think the people running this site need to look at the indymedia cronnies here and the odd smattering of stormfront posters !

Refer to my previous post. When people have just cause to criticise Israel .. people like yourself come out of the woodwork and sling around the word anti semetic and drag up straw men and knock them down. Why do you do this? God Knows .. either you are so biased that you cant think objectively or else you have some kind reasoning problem that prevents you from understanding evidence.

No one here is championing Hamas .. Hamas are a understandable reaction to the state of Israel and the US. Hate breeds hate .. If Israel had treated the Palestinians with more respect then Hamas wouldnt have the support it has or it might not even exist. Anyway Hamas serve a useful tool for Israel .. it helps them justify the ethnic cleansing and illegal settlements.

No one here imo is anti semitic. They have a problem with Israel .. not Jews. The two are different things. Believe it or not but many Jews feel negatively about Israel too .. do a google. So instead of telling us that we are unaware of our subconcious anti-semitism (which comes from where exactly?) .. why dont you discuss the political issues in the region .. maybe then with some real information you will be persuaded to change your mind. Or who knows maybe you have insight and knowledge that will blow everyone here away and give us a fresh perspective on the issue.

Nathan Jones

Playboy wrote: »

Refer to my previous post. When people have just cause to criticise Israel .. people like yourself come out of the woodwork and sling around the word anti semetic and drag up straw men and knock them down. Why do you do this? God Knows .. either you are so biased that you cant think objectively or else you have some kind reasoning problem that prevents you from understanding evidence.

No one here is championing Hamas .. Hamas are a understandable reaction to the state of Israel and the US. Hate breeds hate .. If Israel had treated the Palestinians with more respect then Hamas wouldnt have the support it has or it might not even exist. Anyway Hamas serve a useful tool for Israel .. it helps them justify the ethnic cleansing and illegal settlements.

No one here imo is anti semitic. They have a problem with Israel .. not Jews. The two are different things. Believe it or not but many Jews feel negatively about Israel too .. do a google. So instead of telling us that we are unaware of our subconcious anti-semitism (which comes from where exactly?) .. why dont you discuss the political issues in the region .. maybe then with some real information you will be persuaded to change your mind. Or who knows maybe you have insight and knowledge that will blow everyone here away and give us a fresh perspective on the issue.

After doing 18 tours of duty to Lebanon I can clearly say I am well informed of the situation there and my opinion is formed from seeing both sides of which now I lean towards one for many reasons.

Israel if you did not know setup Hamas to counter the PLO, also Israel does not ethnically cleanse unlike the Syrians,Egyptians and Jordanians but especially the first do your own google on that.

Also your saying hate breeds hate, most Israelis want a normal life but the bully boys from the territories want war and hence the reaction of Israel.. This reaction would be the same from any nation weither it be Switzerland or wherever so dont condem a nation for reacting. !

oscarBravo

Polite note: if you can't discuss the issue without calling other posters names (whether or not you single out individuals), don't bother posting.

Playboy

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Also if I am a Zionist have you a problem with it, if so you are no better than the apparent oppressors you are talking about !

There is a difference between disagreeing with someone and opressing them. I disagree with/dont like Nazi's .. Im not opressing them. I disagree with/dont like Zionists .. Im not opressing them. I have valid reasons for my views regarding both ideologies.

Zionists are openly racist and opressive. I think there would be something wrong with me/us if we didnt have a problem with it. Just like there would be something wrong with me if I didnt have a problem with someone who is anti-semetic.

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

After your finished your rant did you see the term " This is off topic " I was'nt refering to the bedouins I was refering to the constant anti Israel vitrol on this thread......

You were trying to excuse Israel actions with your rant. So I ignored your disclaimer.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

As for the humans rights watch PMSL, another liberal left wing publisher of false facts, I am not saying it is not happening but the likes of amensty etc are extremely left wing anti semtic anti america anti israeli groups... its a pity you dont point anywhere to ethnic cleansing of christians in iraq,iran,pakistan...Turkish oppression of Kurds...it seems that if the israelis do anything they are zoomed in on because they are simply Jews surrounded by millions of their enemies who would like to see every jew dead.

The Human rights groups have similar reports on all the countries you have mentioned. So what your saying here is nonsense.

Also, just because I am not in this thread (a thread about Israel), condemning other nations, doesn't mean I support them. Also, in other threads I have expressed my problems with some of the countries you have mentioned. So again a pointless straw man.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Also if I am a Zionist have you a problem with it, if so you are no better than the apparent oppressors you are talking about !

I never called you a Zionist. I certainly saw you post as making excuse for Israel (hence the "Zionist apologist camp" comment).

How exactly could I be as bad as a country that is demolishing peoples homes btw? Personally, I have never demolished another persons home for any reason, so your comparison is inaccurate hyperbole.

edanto

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Although the above is off topic the amount of anti israeli vitrol here is actually racists and proving that most posters here are anti semtic weither the know it or not...

Since you've just joined, allow me to point out the most repeated thing here in Israel threads. Having an opinion that the actions of the Israeli state apparatus are unjust is not anti-Israeli, racist or anti-semetic. In the same way that disagreeing with a decision of the Irish Minister of Health is not anti-Irish. Merely an opinion or a judgement, that anyone is entitled to make or disagree with. Using arguments.

Don't try and dismiss fact-based criticism of the Isralei government by painting it as racism.

So explain to me when the Israelis send truck loads of free supplies into the gaza strip and then when the final one goes in hamas attacks ??? Hypocrasy at its worst...

No, in fact hypocrisy at it's worst is when the Israeli regime refuses to abide by the same conditions it demands of the Palestinians. That is off-topic in this thread, but here is a link for you to read (scroll down to 'Conditions') http://www.newint.org/columns/essays/2007/10/01/essay/

As far as the Bedouins go, you said that the Guardian article was inaccurate. In what respect, and on what facts, is it inaccurate? Can you support this with some sources?

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Israel if you did not know setup Hamas to counter the PLO, also Israel does not ethnically cleanse unlike the Syrians,Egyptians and Jordanians but especially the first do your own google on that.

Israel is a country that exists due to ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Hence, all the refugee's.

Playboy

Nathan Jones wrote: »

After doing 18 tours of duty to Lebanon I can clearly say I am well informed of the situation there and my opinion is formed from seeing both sides of which now I lean towards one for many reasons.

Israel if you did not know setup Hamas to counter the PLO, also Israel does not ethnically cleanse unlike the Syrians,Egyptians and Jordanians but especially the first do your own google on that.

Also your saying hate breeds hate, most Israelis want a normal life but the bully boys from the territories want war and hence the reaction of Israel.. This reaction would be the same from any nation weither it be Switzerland or wherever so dont condem a nation for reacting. !

Israel does not ethnically cleanse .. are you serious? Can you tell me why Palestine barely exists anymore and is getting smaller every day? Israel has been ethnically cleansing since Zionism formed as an idea in Herzl's mind.

You seem to like your strawmen. Nobody here is is saying a Mubarak controlled Egypt (which is kept in place thanks to that champion of democracy .. the USA) is a great regime. It is a corrupt dictatorship .. and it does horrible things like the other countries you have mentioned. The problem is is that Israel tries to paint itself as something else .. a progressive western democracy.

And no .. the reaction would not be the same from any country. Actually if you want to turn it around the reaction of the Palestinians to Zionism and Israel is the reaction that every country and its neighbours would have. Try and imagine if the Zionists decided to take a large chunk of Ireland for themselves .. what would you think the reaction would be. Consider the reaction the Irish have had to our neighbours for the last 800 years.

Nathan Jones

wes wrote: »

Israel is a country that exists due to ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Hence, all the refugee's.

Tell me what exactly a Palestinian is please as Yasser Arafat was in fact from Tunis and the term Palestinian can be used by anyone, people from Gaza hold Egyptian passports and in Judea and Samaria they hold Jordanian ones.

Also the term Palestinian came around after 1967 and these refugee camps you talk about again tell me more as I am being in them and lived in them, they are actual towns and cities like the ones in Lebanon...

As for Zionists being racists maybe some are but if they had schools they would'nt be preaching hatred to children as they do in the territories which I have personally witnessed and found disgusting..

Oh and for the record I am not a Zionist but I do agree with their point of view and for one I believe they are very moderate to that of the surrounding arab nations including Saudi who preach hatred on an industrial level.

Nathan Jones

Playboy wrote: »

Israel does not ethnically cleanse .. are you serious? Can you tell me why Palestine barely exists anymore and is getting smaller every day? Israel has been ethnically cleansing since Zionism formed as an idea in Herzl's mind.

You seem to like your strawmen. Nobody here is is saying a Mubarak controlled Egypt (which is kept in place thanks to that champion of democracy .. the USA) is a great regime. It is a corrupt dictatorship .. and it does horrible things like the other countries you have mentioned. The problem is is that Israel tries to paint itself as something else .. a progressive western democracy.

And no .. the reaction would not be the same from any country. Actually if you want to turn it around the reaction of the Palestinians to Zionism and Israel is the reaction that every country and its neighbours would have. Try and imagine if the Zionists decided to take a large chunk of Ireland for themselves .. what would you think the reaction would be. Consider the reaction the Irish have had to our neighbours for the last 800 years.

Palestine where is that as it does not exist I think you might refer to it as the state of Israel and the surrounding PA to be correct.

I dont see any nation in the UN called Palestine ??

meditraitor

Nathan Jones wrote: »

witnessed and found disgusting..

Oh and for the record I am not a Zionist but I do agree with their point of view and for one I believe they are very moderate to that of the surrounding arab nations including Saudi who preach hatred on an industrial level.

was this a typo ?
If not then you are a zionist

Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews.

So not being a Jew in Isreal/Palestine(regions controlled by the isreali state) can be very uncomfortable

Its a racist ideology in all but spelling

aimsir_te

Seems that the Middle East is one of the Wests favourite political discussions and is really only a front for anti-americanism on one side and anti-Islam on the other. If people were a little more honest about things they stop pretending to care about israel/palestine!

purple'n'gold

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Palestine where is that as it does not exist I think you might refer to it as the state of Israel and the surrounding PA to be correct.

I dont see any nation in the UN called Palestine ??

Prior to 1955 you would not find any nation called Ireland/ Eire in the UN. But we were here none the less.

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Tell me what exactly a Palestinian is please as Yasser Arafat was in fact from Tunis and the term Palestinian can be used by anyone, people from Gaza hold Egyptian passports and in Judea and Samaria they hold Jordanian ones.

Your actually denying the existence of Palestinians? Completely absurd assertion.

To give you an example, I was born in Ireland, but my parents are Sudhuns. Me being being an Irish citizen, doesn't change my ethnic group.

Arafat, came from a Palestinians family, him being born in Egypt doesn't make him any less of a Palestinian.

I'll give you the name of a book written by a Palestinian which refutes this ridiculous assertion a little later, as I don't have it handy right now.

Of course this ridiculous example doesn't excuse ethnic cleansing, but is another ridiculous straw man. The simple fact of the matter is that people who call them Palestinians were driven out of Palestine by Zionists.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Also the term Palestinian came around after 1967 and these refugee camps you talk about again tell me more as I am being in them and lived in them, they are actual towns and cities like the ones in Lebanon...

The UN accords them refugee status.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

As for Zionists being racists maybe some are but if they had schools they would'nt be preaching hatred to children as they do in the territories which I have personally witnessed and found disgusting..

Zionism is racism. Look at the treatment of the Bedouins for example. Also, others actions does not excuse Zionism from being racist.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Oh and for the record I am not a Zionist but I do agree with their point of view and for one I believe they are very moderate to that of the surrounding arab nations including Saudi who preach hatred on an industrial level.

Again, how does the actions of other excuse Israel?

Israel, unlike her neighbors claims to be a Western style democracy, and as can be seen from this thread doesn't live up to that at all, but is in fact an apartheid state.

Nathan Jones

meditraitor wrote: »

was this a typo ?
If not then you are a zionist

Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews.

So not being a Jew in Isreal/Palestine(regions controlled by the isreali state) can be very uncomfortable

Its a racist ideology in all but spelling

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

bobbyjoe

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

Thats a novel solution pretend it doesn't exist!!

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

Why were so many Palestinians ethnic cleansed then and why are so many still not allowed there right to return.

Also, the Palestinian mandate existed before 1948, it was what the UN partitioned. Its absurd you are pretending it didn't exist, since you refer to it partition.

Nathan Jones

wes wrote: »

Your actually denying the existence of Palestinians? Completely absurd assertion.

To give you an example, I was born in Ireland, but my parents are Sudhuns. Me being being an Irish citizen, doesn't change my ethnic group.

Arafat, came from a Palestinians family, him being born in Egypt doesn't make him any less of a Palestinian.

I'll give you the name of a book written by a Christian Palestinian which refutes this ridiculous assertion a little later, as I don't have it handy right now.

Of course this ridiculous example doesn't excuse ethnic cleansing, but is another ridiculous straw man. The simple fact of the matter is that people who call them Palestinians were driven out of Palestine by Zionists.



The UN accords them refugee status.



Zionism is racism. Look at the treatment of the Bedouins for example. Also, others actions does not excuse Zionism from being racist.



Again, how does the actions of other excuse Israel?

Israel, unlike her neighbors claims to be a Western style democracy, and as can be seen from this thread doesn't live up to that at all, but is in fact an apartheid state.

heres one for you at least Israel is a democracy unlike every single arab state which is not and every single one oppresses it's people...

If you are Irish as you claim where is your primary alligance apart from family, Islam or the state of Ireland ?

Yasser Arafat was in fact a terrorist and also claimed to be born in Jerusalem which was proven to be a lie and also he and his cronnies syphoned of billions of EU and US money, oh he was a great leader like Pol Pot and Saddam..pull the other one.

Obviously you yourself are racist as you are clearly anti - Israel and underneath it all must have be bread hatred as a child, its not your fault !

purple'n'gold

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

Why are you using such atrocious grammar? And you keep banging on about a democratic state. Democratic states do not practise apartheid.

Nathan Jones

purplengold wrote: »

Why are you using such atrocious grammar? And you keep banging on about a democratic state. Democratic states do not practise apartheid.

Number one I am using a PDA to type this so get over yourself..

Apartheid is not practiced give me actual proof from a legitmate and impartial source that indicates this as you know it is complete and utter crap...

The Palestinians were offered peace in oslo they then waged war and got the reaction they wanted, I am not going to convince you that you are brain washed and that you are infact talking complete lies but again you must use wikipedia and the internet as a source of your in depth experience of the conflict.

bobbyjoe

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Number one I am using a PDA to type this so get over yourself..

Apartheid is not practiced give me actual proof from a legitmate and impartial source that indicates this as you know it is complete and utter crap...

The Palestinians were offered peace in oslo they then waged war and got the reaction they wanted, I am not going to convince you that you are brain washed and that you are infact talking complete lies but again you must use wikipedia and the internet as a source of your in depth experience of the conflict.

Bedouins who are citizens of Israel are being cleared for their land to make room for other citizens of Israel. So some citizens seem to have more rights than others. That and the giant wall, roads, road blocks, stopping the freedom of movement, collective punishment etc etc if thats not aparthied I don't know what is.



The Palestinians were never offered peace.

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

heres one for you at least Israel is a democracy unlike every single arab state which is not and every single one oppresses it's people...

Israel claims to be a democracy. It is an apartheid state. Israel (unlike real democracies) has roads in the West Bank for the exclusive use of a specific ethnic group, then there is the treatment of Bedouins, as illustrated in this thread.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

If you are Irish as you claim where is your primary alligance apart from family, Islam or the state of Ireland ?

:rolleyes: What does this have to do with the topic at hand at all? Oh, wait it has nothing to do with the topic and is another ridiculous straw man.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Yasser Arafat was in fact a terrorist and also claimed to be born in Jerusalem which was proven to be a lie and also he and his cronnies syphoned of billions of EU and US money, oh he was a great leader like Pol Pot and Saddam..pull the other one.

So? Doesn't change the fact he came from a Palestinians family. What does anything you said (true as it may) have to do with him not being a Palestinian and your denial of there existence. Looks like another straw man.

GuanYin

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Tell me what exactly a Palestinian is please as Yasser Arafat was in fact from Tunis and the term Palestinian can be used by anyone, people from Gaza hold Egyptian passports and in Judea and Samaria they hold Jordanian ones.

Also the term Palestinian came around after 1967 and these refugee camps you talk about again tell me more as I am being in them and lived in them, they are actual towns and cities like the ones in Lebanon...

A Palestinian is someone hailing from the region known as Palestine which, in the original Greek derivation (originally the Philistines), has existed by that name as far back as the 5th Century BC but probably didn't come into informal speak until the first century AD after Rome punished Israel for the Jewish Rebellions.

purple'n'gold

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Number one I am using a PDA to type this so get over yourself..

Apartheid is not practiced give me actual proof from a legitmate and impartial source that indicates this as you know it is complete and utter crap...


Using a PDA is no excuse for your grammar being akin to that of a 10 year old. But that’s beside the point. Read this. http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20020611ftr.html

GuanYin

Nathan Jones/Le Burp is no longer with us.

He's off to burn crosses outside his local non-denominational middle school.

wes

The book I mentioned earlier:

Palestine: A Personal History
By Karl Sabbagh

edanto

It's hard trying to have a discussion with people like that - but note how effectively he derailed the thread. Anyone remember the Bedouins?

wes

Well, getting back on topic. I would like to point out that Bedouins serve in the IDF and for doing so they get treated like crap, as can be seen in the Guardian story.

Suff

During the Arab league summit, the Libyan president Gaddafi (whatever you might think of this mad man) shocked everyone when he offered a One state solution to the Israeli/Arab conflict....mind you he said:

"Israel has two options...one state solution or face war!,...and in both cases it will be dissolved."

One Sate that is governed by Jews, Christians and Muslims (not all palestinians are muslims!) where all citizens of this state would enjoy full rights to freedom of religion, vote, employment, education and a chance to live a normal life just like any other citizen, the elections will be done under the UN supervision.

I really think this solution might work, it would stop all types of ethnic cleansing, would grant everyone the right to live on that land....sound plausible to anyone ?