Bundesliga, why isn't it the strongest league?

luckylucky

I know people debate which league is the best or strongest in Europe. Over the last 2 decades I would say at particular times at least imo the Premiership, Serie A and La Liga held that mantle at one stage or another. I don't know many people who would say the Bundesliga was the best though. I would say it's been consistently around the no.4 spot, kinda like the Liverpool of European leagues.

Just wondering why that should be the case. Germany has got the largest population, afaik football is just as big there if not bigger than Italy, England or Spain. Germany has traditionally been one of the wealthier European countries, granted these days perhaps it's not as much so. Is it simply just not as glamorous a league to play in as the other 3 for some reason?

Xavi6

Yep simply put it is seen as being dull. There's no real reason for players to go there above Italy, Spain or England.

gustavo

I think the lack of a major television deal and cheaper ticket prices screw them up in terms of being majorly competitive on the European scene , plus there seems to be a tendency of looking down on clubs and teams that lavish big money for players i.e Bayern , when Dortmund spent the big bucks at the turn of the century they nearly went bust as a result

ibh

gustavo wrote: »

I think the lack of a major television deal and cheaper ticket prices screw them up in terms of being majorly competitive on the European scene , plus there seems to be a tendency of looking down on clubs and teams that lavish big money for players i.e Bayern , when Dortmund spent the big bucks at the turn of the century they nearly went bust as a result

I thought they had some strict rules regarding clubs finances. They cannot spend more than a certain % of their income?? Come to think of it, i may be mixing it up with the French league.

Bubs101

Because the bad teams are terrible and all of the teams act as a feeder team to Bayern

anonymous_joe

Bayern have dominated for a long time, probably (by which I mean without doubt) for too long.

In the mid 90s Dortmund were a strong rival for the Munich team, but they overreached themselves, and imploded fairly spectacularly. As it currently stands, Bayern have a much higher profile than anyone else, thus players like Klose will leave for Bayern, even though their team might be the stronger one.

As a result, people lose interest, add to that, the collapse of that huge (Kirch was it?) media group and you'll see the obvious reason again - teams can't f*ck money at mediocre players.

Fulham spent a reported £6 million on Diomansay Kamara, not many German teams would be spending that amount frequently.

PHB

Bayern dominated for too long. They don't challenge on the European stage anymore. They have good solid football, that fans like, but players don't necessarily, especially not flair players. Also they have low ticket prices, and a poor TV brand, which results in less money. Still, I like the German league, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it overtake Spain or Italy in the coming years.

chopperbyrne

Unfortunately, there is probably more interest from foreign stations to show Bundeliga highlights than there is interest from German stations to show any Bundesliga at all.

That is their major problem.

It's a bit like the NHL in America, attendances are largely okay, but no major TV deal.

anonymous_joe

PHB wrote: »

Bayern dominated for too long. They don't challenge on the European stage anymore. They have good solid football, that fans like, but players don't necessarily, especially not flair players. Also they have low ticket prices, and a poor TV brand, which results in less money. Still, I like the German league, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it overtake Spain or Italy in the coming years.

Don't forget that for years Italy was the world's best league, which automatically enticed talent, and Italy had its love of the fantasisti, while Spain offered an easily accessible culture for a lot of South American talent.

Nowadays, England just happens to have barrel loads of money that Germany doesn't have.

Third_Echelon

I watch the German footy on a friday night on setanta from time to time if I wasn't going out...

I have to say, I really enjoy watching it as they are generally pretty exciting games no matter who is on. I was watching Eintracht Frankfurt vs Wolfsburg I think it was, and it was end to end stuff, with some good skill on show...

Now, if they came up against any of the big European teams, they'd obviously beat these German teams, but they are handy enough sides...

A bit more money pumped into the game and I reckon that Germany could have 5 or 6 decent sides fighting it out for the champs league and uefa cup spots...

dobsdave

Third_Echelon wrote: »

I watch the German footy on a friday night on setanta from time to time if I wasn't going out...

I have to say, I really enjoy watching it as they are generally pretty exciting games no matter who is on. I was watching Eintracht Frankfurt vs Wolfsburg I think it was, and it was end to end stuff, with some good skill on show...

Now, if they came up against any of the big European teams, they'd obviously beat these German teams, but they are handy enough sides...

A bit more money pumped into the game and I reckon that Germany could have 5 or 6 decent sides fighting it out for the champs league and uefa cup spots...

Its really popular in the west, but not so much in the east of Germany.
I tried to get tickets for a Bayern match (I'm living in Dresden), and they were sold out three months in advance, same goes for all the big clubs.

Tickets start at a really cheap price (15-18 euro).

I would say whats holding the league back is the lack of foreign TV contracts and the domestic contract(Premiere channel) isn't anything near sky.

And as the Italians are finding out, money talks.

Royale with Cheese

I think it's a fairly decent league to watch.

I don't know how much they're getting for it but I'd no problems watching matches on Premiere sport when I lived there. It's a subscription channel like Sky Sports so I don't see why they shouldn't be getting a decent chunk of money from that.

Yeah ticket prices are low but it's not like that's a really bad thing. It was great to be able to go to a 40'000 attendance game and only pay €20 for it.

There doesn't seem to be anywhere near as big a gap between Bundesliga 1. and 2. as there is between the Premiership and Championship. Probably tells you a lot about the strength of the league and how much money they're making.

On the European front it's disappointing to see German teams performing so poorly, but domestically it's a very healthy league. Large attendances + fairly unpredictable (Bayern aside, who've still had a few bad seasons as of late).

And you can buy beer in the stadiums. I enjoyed going to Bundesliga games a good bit more than Premiership ones.

zAbbo

The high tax band makes it very unattractive for foreign players.

Luca Toni is on E5.7M a year, and Ribery on E5M, but I think the tax takes a high % of it.

Bubs101

PHB wrote: »

Bayern dominated for too long. They don't challenge on the European stage anymore. They have good solid football, that fans like, but players don't necessarily, especially not flair players. Also they have low ticket prices, and a poor TV brand, which results in less money. Still, I like the German league, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it overtake Spain or Italy in the coming years.

In fairness to the league, most good teams have 1 flair player each. In the past 3 years there's been Diego, D'allesandro, Ballack, Ribery, Lincoln. Rosicky, Ze Roberto and doubtlessly other exciting players who I don't recall

Zaph

zAbbo wrote: »

The high tax band makes it very unattractive for foreign players.

Luca Toni is on E5.7M a year, and Ribery on E5M, but I think the tax takes a high % of it.

That's probably the biggest factor. TV and ticket revenues are lower which means that in general teams can't offer extravagent salaries. Then when these relatively low (by top level football standard) salaries are hit by much higher tax rates than you'll find in the other major footballing countries there isn't the same incentive for foreign stars to go and play in Germany. In a way it's good as the local talent gets more of a look in than they do in England, for example, and this ultimately benefits the national team.

Pepe LeFrits

Zaph wrote: »

In a way it's good as the local talent gets more of a look in than they do in England, for example, and this ultimately benefits the national team.

Doubtful, as they are ultimately competing at a lower standard than the players in the bigger leagues.

Zaph

It's still a higher level than playing in the reserves or being shipped out on loan to a Championship or lower level club.

Ronan|Raven

And they can still create a decent atmosphear in the grounds. Nearly every match I watch from the Bundesliga the fans are amazing.

Zaph

I was at a Bayern match a couple of weeks ago and the atmosphere was probably the best I've experienced anywhere other than the Bernabeu.

gosplan

As far as I can remember, tickets don't go above 15-20 quid for most games. You've got to love that really but no way is it going to bring in a Torres or Tevez.

Bubs101

gosplan wrote: »

As far as I can remember, tickets don't go above 15-20 quid for most games. You've got to love that really but no way is it going to bring in a Torres or Tevez.

It got a Ribery and Toni who had better reputations last summer

Dont be at yourself

I think most teams fill their stadiums week-in, week-out too. Think it's got one of the highest attendances out of all top-flight leagues.

Though I dont watch it at all, it seems to me that it's becoming more competitive in recent years, with the likes of Bremen and Shalke stealing Bayern's thunder. Bayern couldn't even get a CL place last year, so that has to say something of the quality.

They've got the players too. Players like Van Der Vaart, Diego, Toni, Podolski, Ribery, Klose are all absolutely top-class.

iregk

Well up until recent years the bundesliga had a better european record than its premiership counterpart. Some of the arguments are true however and that Bayern have dominated for too long. This was basically down to the whole stature debate and that all players eventually wanted to play for bayern. Ballack is a good point in case here. He was with a better team at the time (leverkusen) yet Munchen still got not only him but 2 others that summer that killed leverkusen.

Now things are changing. The bundesliga is gradually getting closer together and the spread of talent is starting to filter out. It is the best supported league in europe and for a reason. The ticket prices are low due to the restrictions put in place by the DFL. This ensures the game never gets away from the real fans and with most clubs decision made are open vote with the supporters clubs. In a sence the fans own the league and the clubs and it shows. The league has crowds, athmospheres and attendances that the prem could only dream of. Anyone who watches the games on setanta can tell you they are class. I've seen so many great games this season its unreal. I can count on one hand the amount of great games I've seen in the prem.

In my opinion the bundesliga is starting to warm up again. Like european footie has done throughout the years different leagues have their time. Italy were top for a long time, Spain were tops, Germany were tops, now England is looking like being tops but that will change again.

Royale with Cheese

It probably won't warm up again, in terms of competing in Europe. Money talks, and the big leagues buy the best foreign players, thus creating the best teams.

However like most people have said, competitivness in Europe aside, it's the strongest league in Europe... if you know what I mean.

DubDani

A bit problem is in the mentality of the germans. They are known to be stingy for a reason, and you would have a hard time finding people who are willing to fork out 50 or 60 Euro a month for pay TV. Therefore TV rights are just not worth as much. On the other hand the bundesliga has not the seen same popularity outside of germany as the other european leagues.

The basic TV stations cannot afford (or just justify the cost) the rights, and only recently the big club sponsors threatend to leave the Budnesliga if it was shown exclusively on Pay/Private TV.

As a comparrision, as far as I know the EPL gets from Sky 1.6 billion Euro for three seasons. The bundesliga just sold it's rights for 1.5 billion for 6 years, and that includes rights on the first and second league.

For most Germans Soccer is still a "basic right", which should be available to the masses. That's also why germany would not pay Ticket prices like for example in the Premier League. In a way this is wanted by the clubs, who rather have a full stadium of real fans, then a half full stadium of wannabe fans.

I personally like this attitude, but it of course hinders the Development on the International Stage. But it also means that the clubs have to be creative in getting new Star players, which is a good thing from time to time.

Some of the current big bundesliga stars moved there because they were just on a bad spell or had other problems (van der Vaart was unhappy at Ajax and desperate to leave, Kompany was injured when he moved to Hamburg, Diego was only second fiddle at Porto, etc.).

Bayern is the only club that is able to (financially) compete with any european club. But due to their strict financial stance (no debts ever) they are sometimes just unwilling to flex their muscles. According to Media Reports they have more then 100 mil. in cash available at any given time.

But as much as I hate Bayern I have to admit that with Ribery they signed one of the best players in europe at the moment. And who thought they would be able to pull that one off. And I am sure another big name will come in the summer, and then they will have their say in next years CL again.

Ronan|Raven

Exactly, they are keeping the game in a way that the real fans who live in the areas can afford to goto matches as opposed to the Premiership mania where the locals quite simply are being priced out of going to matches. They can however fly in half of Ireland etc who will pay those prices as it isnt a weekly cost on them.