State of our roads, Primetime now

astraboy

State of our roads being discussed on Prime time now in regard to Road safety.

Looks like the RSA is waking up to this issue and viewing how road conditions really are an increasing factor in road deaths. Interesting how the HSA and the local authorities(Cork being one named) are now fighting it out....

mthd

"road conditions are responsible for 2.5% of fatal accidents"

yeah, right :rolleyes:

Cionád

Only caught the end of it, any use?

joseph brand

When roads are full of sharp bends, and wheel swallowing potholes, then driving becomes a little hairy.

Forget those sweeping straight roads, like in Arizona. Our roads qualify for crazy, thrill-seeking rally drivers.

Its great when you see the Garda checkpoints in a housing estate, or other built up areas that never see road fatalities. But they're not out on those dangerous areas on a Fri/Sat night when drink drivers are flyin it!!

I remember driving thru' Mullingar, heading towards Tullamore and onto Birr. Dangerous bend. accident black spot signs a plenty.
Why are the roads so narrow? Sometimes it seems that, another foot to the left and the car is gonna drop into a ravine. :mad:

mthd

Cionád wrote: »

Only caught the end of it, any use?

Not really, more about the lack of signs at road works

astraboy

They did discuss the use of temporary surfaces for long lengths of time, making the road more dangerous. The RSA and the Guardi have woken up to road conditions as a road safety issue according to it too, however the primetime investigation was mainly based on roadworks and not "accident blackspots" we are so used to seeing.

Oilrig

Primetime...

Why doesn't RTE leave the sensationalist journalism to the red tops?

Steve

joseph brand wrote: »

But they're not out on those dangerous areas on a Fri/Sat night when drink drivers are flyin it!!

Because they know they'd get run over by the lunatic.

The inherent problem with trying to police the dangerous back roads:
you don't have to be exceeding the speed limit to be speeding.

Ta me anseo

Hello it's me again! :rolleyes:

Not a challenge, just a question.

astraboy wrote: »

road conditions really are an increasing factor in road deaths

How do you come to that conclusion? I was not aware that statistics were kept detailing when a fatality resulted from poor road surfaces.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's incorrect, I just fail to see how you can make that assumption. It's all just part of my anti "speed isn't the problem, it's everything else" argument, argument.

astraboy

Ta me anseo, my answer is long winded but please read it, I think there is some substance there. (since you asked so nicely.:) )Basically, the roads ARE safer then they were before, road deaths are a fraction of what they were 20 years ago with far far fewer cars on the roads. This is for many reasons, safer cars and more safety features, a crackdown on drink driving, better enforcement and training of drivers. However, if we are to keep reducing fatalities and injures we need to look at all aspects of road safety.

Because the other causes of accidents generally are now causing fewer accidents, and we have more cars on the roads, it is time to address the roads themselves as an issue. It stated in the show that 45 people were killed in accidents between 04 and 06 when road conditions were a major factor in the crash.

Statistics are kept on all fatal accidents on the cause, investigated by the guardi, and road conditions is a factor recorded in such accidents. However, I believe the road death tally is even higher where road conditions were a factor, as it may be recorded as drink driving or speed related when it was road conditions that were the determining factor.

We all know it takes many aspects to cause a crash and road conditions are a huge factor. The quality of many of our secondary roads has not kept pace with development and therefore needs to be addressed. Noel Brett of the RSA and I believe the junior commissioner of the Guardi were quoted as saying that road conditions and the state of the roads is such a huge safety issue it needs to be addressed immediately.

Also, its pretty obvious road conditions effect accident rates, compare accident rates on a dual carriage way to poor back road in the country, the dual carriage way has a higher volume of traffic but far fewer accidents. All those late night fatalities take place on some poorly lit backroad, not on fine motorways.

In summary, I'm going on previous articles I've read and also what was stated by reputable sources on the show tonight.

I.S.T.

Cionád wrote: »

Only caught the end of it, any use?

You can watch it here http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/

msg11

I agree. My post is short and simple.

Anyone remember the drivers been interviewed after the first "WRC" here?

"The drivers were shocked at the amount of pot holes"

And Ireland came in as one of the hardest courses on the tour.

And how can it be that, if a rally car is absolutely trashed and some even wrote off on the back roads in Ireland, that it can be aloud happen that any road users are aloud go 80kmph on these roads?

salonfire

astraboy wrote: »

All those late night fatalities take place on some poorly lit backroad, not on fine motorways.

Rubbish. All those late night crashes are caused by Johnny Boy Racer that lets the brain in the trousers rule when driving.

In these late night fatalities, how come the vast majority of people killed are male, under 30?

Do middle age drivers and women not drive on poorly lit backroads at night

ART6

The state of many of our roads (that we pay an arm and a leg for) is a disgrace and must be a contributor to accidents. I live on a rural road that the Army used to use for tank testing until they had too much damage to the tanks. It has potholes a plenty, but the council come round once a fortnight and lob some tarmac in them. A guy then jumps up and down on it for a minute before they go back to their depot. Next day our best potholes are back. Three drivers, apparently, in our village have had front tyres blown out on them in the last few months. If any of them had suffered a serious accident, what would be the investigation findings? Faulty car? driver not paying attention? After all, the pothole would by then be some way back down the road and not necessarily associated with the accident.

Ta me anseo

astraboy wrote: »

Ta me anseo, my answer is long winded but please read it,

Long winded? Tis nothing like some of my waffly posts in the past!!!

With regard to road conditions as a cause of accidents, was there any indication in the programme, or was it obvious, that they were differentiating between poor surface conditions caused by weather and poor surface condition maintenance?

I'm happily surprised that our backward country is keeping track of these kind of detailed staitistics. Perhaps we're not as far behind the rest of the planet as I thought.

I would however dispute the dual carriageway vs backroad analogy. They are different classes of road, not just different surface standards. If we converted all backroads to have the same road surface integrity as our motorways, we would still find the majority of accidents occuring on the backroads. As salonfire hinted to earlier, little scumbag egos would get in the way.

Also, I would bet that if the roads were improved, people would argue that they can now safely drive faster on them, leading to an accident rate similar to that which existed prior to the upgrade. If we are to improve safety (statistically at least) by building high quality surfaces on our minor roads, people must accept that they will still need to take the same amount of time to get where they're going. It would one case where I would suggest that improved roads should not improve travel times.

Otherwise, I must agree I'm happy to see the RSA and anyone else looking at alternative ways of curing the epidemic.

Lord Nikon

mthd wrote: »

Not really, more about the lack of signs at road works

Obviously hasn't been on the M50:rolleyes:

cantdecide

Well forget about road safety for a minute.

We DO pay vast amounts of motoring related tax and to have car breaking roads just shows how little value we get. Another major factor to me is the amount of roads being "resurfaced" when clearly the foundations are sludge leading to immediate deterioration. One road near me was resurfaced 'properly' and 2 years later it was like it hadn't been.

They will tell you that it's our climate but a) we don't get that much rain and b) we have a remarkably temperate climate by any standards.

An observation we can all make is that the condition of the roads around Cork changes literally on the borders. Waterford, Tipp and Kerry- all immediately have noticeably better roads.

I think a lot of it comes down to the county engineer (or whoever has the final sign off) for accepting rubbish. Look at the state of those comms trenches- I crossed back and forth over these in the UK and you cannot feel them under your wheels. They are wrecking our roads and consequently our cars our cars over here because no one has the b*lls to get them back to fix them properly.

Look at the front tyres of a selection of cars in your local car park. Amazing amounts of them have uneven tyre wear because of bad tracking/ steering and suspension wear from driving 1st world cars through 3rd world roads. I zigzag all over the roads avoiding potholes and rough surfaces (it's not just your textbook pothole that does damage).

I started riding bikes recently and I can tell you in Cork, if you don't know the roads, it is more likely than unlikely there is a pothole or trench in the middle of any random blind bend. I was taught in my rider training that for maximum visiblity when taking a RH bend, my wheels should be almost in the ditch. My instructor couldn't understand why I was reluctant but he hasn't seen the roads where I live.

cashmni1

salonfire wrote: »

Rubbish. All those late night crashes are caused by Johnny Boy Racer that lets the brain in the trousers rule when driving.

In these late night fatalities, how come the vast majority of people killed are male, under 30?

Do middle age drivers and women not drive on poorly lit backroads at night

not rubbish.
Yes the people who drive fast and drunk, are one of the same kind. I don't do it, You probally don't do it and I would say most people with half a brain don't drive drunk on a Sat. night across back roads as fast as the car will go.
However, the quality of back roads in Ireland is bad. Very Bad. Fact.
The people who drive like idiots are always going to be here . They don't go away. I don't agree with them but its fact. We cannot change everyones driving habits.
What we can change is the quality of our secondary and tertiary raods to stop unnecccessarry road deaths. Not all B road deaths care caused by "boy racers". Some are caused by other people too.:eek:

cantdecide

cashmni1 wrote: »

the quality of back roads in Ireland is bad. Very Bad. Fact....The people who drive like idiots are always going to be here

+1

Is it that hard to arge that the state has a duty of care even to stupid boy racers?? An ignored gravel patch can be the difference between life and death in the right conditions.

astraboy

The program focused on the road surfaces for some reason, but I think this issue should cover the width and type of road as well. The boy racer cliche has been trotted out here many times, and the way to stop people driving too fast for road conditions lies with driver education. If we all slowed to 5kph on really bad roads then accident rates would be hugely reduced, but that is hardly a good solution. When a road is in good shape, then suddenly turns twisty, narrow and roughly surfaced it is dangerous, and this is the case with many roads I drive in Co. Cork.

The people killed by road conditions and poor surfaces prime time focused on were not "boy racers" at all, and it is obvious these roads are costing the lives of regular safe drivers, not just the 3am Saturday morning suicide jockey in a toyota starlet showing off to his mates.

Cionád

joseph brand wrote: »

Its great when you see the Garda checkpoints in a housing estate, or other built up areas that never see road fatalities.

Now i'm broadly against speed traps when they are on motorways/dual carriageways and other safer spots but To be against speed checks in housing estates (which is my interpretation of the sarcasm above?) is a bit crazy in fairness. Housing estates are full of kids playing, parked cars, pets etc. And people do get killed in built up areas, 2 in Naas this year iirc, and plenty in Dublin city/suburbs.

That said I agree with more checks for dangerous driving on backroads (or any road as long as speeeding does not always equal dangerous)

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

You can watch it here http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/

Thanks.

ZiabR

When it comes to the state of our roads, you have to factor in the amount of road tax we pay. We pay very very high amounts of road tax and still have some of the worst roads in Europe. Where is all our money going?

You only have to drive over the border to be on roads that are 70% better than our roads down south. And they pay a fraction of the price for their road tax.

If anyone drives through Kells, you will remember the state the road going through the town was and still is in spots. Thats the MAIN link between Dublin and Cavan/Monaghan and you would nearly need a tank to get through alive.

That is a disgrace. Our roads need to be tackled not just to cut road deaths but also to improve our transport network in Ireland.

Give me another wealthy EU country that has 40 foot artic lorries on roads barely wide enough to fit two cars?

unkel

Damn right, logik!

logik wrote: »

Give me another wealthy EU country that has 40 foot artic lorries on roads barely wide enough to fit two cars?

My favourite is the one-way Slane bridge with the dangerous bend on the N2 - officially a National Primary Route :rolleyes:

Balfa

I'd just like to point out that, while roads here in Texas are generally better, the road surfaces are MUCH worse! There are far more potholes and caving in and unfinished edges and all sorts of other dodgy crap here compared to Ireland.

I just want to let you know that Ireland doesn't have the most potholes per capita

WHITE_P

astraboy wrote: »

They did discuss the use of temporary surfaces for long lengths of time, making the road more dangerous. The RSA and the Guardi have woken up to road conditions as a road safety issue according to it too, however the primetime investigation was mainly based on roadworks and not "accident blackspots" we are so used to seeing.

Would the reason for the Primetime investigation looking mainly at road works have anything to do with the school bus accident in Navan that killed 5 teenage school girls, I wonder.

Particularlly as those road works were there for a very long time with little apprearence of any progress, and guess what, within weeks of that accident the road works were completed.

WHITE_P

unkel wrote: »

Damn right, logik!



My favourite is the one-way Slane bridge with the dangerous bend on the N2 - officially a National Primary Route :rolleyes:

Yeah and look at the number of lives that have been lost because of that bridge in recent years.

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

My favourite is the one-way Slane bridge with the dangerous bend on the N2 - officially a National Primary Route :rolleyes:

I remember reading a few years ago that Meath councillors were officially opposed to motorways as they "discourage the use of public transport". I am sure there was something nefarious going on there as Meath is the only county that borders Dublin that does not have an inch of (passenger) railway, and therefore their only public transport options are road-based.

What got me most is that Fine Gael were in power at the time, and John Bruton, a Meath man, was Taoiseach.

Having said that, Noel Dempsey, a Meath man is current Minister for Transport. I reckon there'll be a tribunal yet over his dealings with Trim Castle.

Guy:Incognito

logik wrote: »

When it comes to the state of our roads, you have to factor in the amount of road tax we pay. We pay very very high amounts of road tax and still have some of the worst roads in Europe. Where is all our money going?

Theres no such thing as road tax. It's motor tax. As in a tax to own a motor propelled vehicle. The money doesnt all go into a road buildign fund. It goes to everything.

astraboy

Aaaa, you can't beat the do-gooder political logic, saying whatever is the most forward thinking at the time without actually thinking about the reality or what needs to be done!

@Stekelly, thats our issue! Why should motorists subside other areas?! It should all go into the road building fund. Motor tax, road tax, the same but by different name really.

Seth Brundle

WHITE_P wrote: »

Would the reason for the Primetime investigation looking mainly at road works have anything to do with the school bus accident in Navan that killed 5 teenage school girls, I wonder.

Particularlly as those road works were there for a very long time with little apprearence of any progress, and guess what, within weeks of that accident the road works were completed.

Correct. There have been a number of cases where the local authority (or contractors on their behalf) laid a temporary surface, in some cases painted it and then left leaving drivers to believe that the road was completed whereas in fact the surface had very little grip.
e.g. http://archives.tcm.ie/westernpeople/2005/02/02/story23483.asp