Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

Sunnyisland

I agree zab if people dont think AA is for them, They can go to one of the other support groups that are around,For me personally I went to AA at the start just to be around other like minded people,I havent done the 12 steps nor do i go anymore but it certainly did help me and i have made some great friends there,There are also many online support groups which are very good,as at the end of the day if you are going to these places it is because you have a problem with alcohol and to me it does not matter who you go to or where you go to to beat this terrible disease/addiction/habit.

brokensoul

bitter wrote: »

I am critizing the philosophy of AA/NA and it's founder Bill Wilson.....

I do not believe it is a disease,it is addiction or a habit.

The World Health Organisation disagrees with you. I think I will take their word for it...

anymore

Satanta wrote: »

Jeez... what AA rooms have you been going to? Was at a a meeting on Monday night. Had a laugh before and after the meeting. Talked about positive change during the meeting. Nobody got any messages AFAIK. Also, I dont know where you get the abuse element from sponsorship. Most people use their sponsor for advise to get their opinion on certain things.

And if I am being honest, you come across as being the very thing your username suggests.

It isnt a philosophy of magical thinking either. There is a spiritual element to it, which isnt grounded in any religion. What "magical thinking" are you referring to?

And my best advice is the same as yours. Take a good hard look at the people around you in an AA room. If you are not bitter to the hilt, I am sure you will see relaxed, open, honest and happy people.

I was discussing this with a friend who is in AA and who has finally got sober after 15/20 years of trying - he is as far as I know an atheist. The benefits to him and his family are clear to all to see. It has been like watching a life being reborn. Bitter stirkes me as the kind of person you will find in all kinds of life - problems are always someones fault and they are not happy unless they are moaning and groaning and presenting themselves as persecuted and victimised. Get a life !

bitter

anymore wrote: »

I was discussing this with a friend who is in AA and who has finally got sober after 15/20 years of trying - he is as far as I know an atheist. The benefits to him and his family are clear to all to see. It has been like watching a life being reborn. Bitter stirkes me as the kind of person you will find in all kinds of life - problems are always someones fault and they are not happy unless they are moaning and groaning and presenting themselves as persecuted and victimised. Get a life !

Got a good life son, AA/NA is detrimental to a lot of people and it is a religious based quasi-cult.

brokensoul

bitter wrote: »

Got a good life son, AA/NA is detrimental to a lot of people and it is a religious based quasi-cult.

My father was in AA for 30 plus years, I grew up around AA members and i know alot of them who have no religious belief.

I myself do, but to say that AA cant help anyone who doesnt have a religious belief is wrong.

Also, my understanding of cults is that they dont let go of their members easily, which i have never experienced. I went to lots of AA meetings when i sobered up first, now i go to maybe 2 or 3 a year. I still get the same welcome every time i go to a meeting.

I am not saying that it works for everyone, but with addiction nothing works for everyone. AA certainly works for lots of people.

anymore

bitter wrote: »

Got a good life son, AA/NA is detrimental to a lot of people and it is a religious based quasi-cult.

I was going to say no offence intended but i suppose my comments were a bit too pointed for me to be able to say that.
Your attitudes to and comments about AA seem so extreme that you come across as a person who is nursing a very strong greviance against AA. Why is that ? Twelve step groups have the unique distinction that they dont go out and ram their message down peoples throats, they dont go with a begging bowl and expect the taxpayer to fund them and from what i understand they are farily democratic as far as electing officials etc. I dont recall hearing AA people on radio and tv, day and day out, telling the rest of us what we can and cant do.

bitter

anymore wrote: »

I was going to say no offence intended but i suppose my comments were a bit too pointed for me to be able to say that.
Your attitudes to and comments about AA seem so extreme that you come across as a person who is nursing a very strong greviance against AA. Why is that ? Twelve step groups have the unique distinction that they dont go out and ram their message down peoples throats, they dont go with a begging bowl and expect the taxpayer to fund them and from what i understand they are farily democratic as far as electing officials etc. I dont recall hearing AA people on radio and tv, day and day out, telling the rest of us what we can and cant do.

You certainly have no idea about the rooms of AA/NA have you...

AA is a corporation over here in the States. They make a serious profit out of treatment centers & have gotten the courts to mandate offenders to treatment centers & outside meetings which is unconstutional btw. Bill Wilson owned the copyright to the Big Book which is mandotory for all members to buy so he made a clean profit out of that didn't he?

Sunnyisland

Anybody in Ireland can go to any AA meeting anywhere,The courts in Ireland do not mandate anyone to go to AA and buying the big book is not mandatory but it is a very good read , as has been said before it is obvious that you had a very bad experience with AA and while that is unfortunate it is also sad that you want to paint every AA meeting with the same brush, But if criticising AA meetings keeps you happy, rant away.I am sure people who read your posts can see through them.

anymore

bitter wrote: »

You certainly have no idea about the rooms of AA/NA have you...

AA is a corporation over here in the States. They make a serious profit out of treatment centers & have gotten the courts to mandate offenders to treatment centers & outside meetings which is unconstutional btw. Bill Wilson owned the copyright to the Big Book which is mandotory for all members to buy so he made a clean profit out of that didn't he?

Well I certainly know that your claim that it is mandatory for members to buy the Big Book is a complete load of nonsense !:D:D:D
So are you living in the US ? If you are I am wondering why you are posting so earnestly on what is mainly an irish site ? Not that I am suggesting you shouldnt ! It is just that it does seem as if you are carrying out a one man campaign against AA - which is why I previously asked is there a particular reason to this ? Are you nursing some resentment which is energising you ?
Again from my knowledge, AA in Ireland has abolutely no ownership or involvement in treatment centres in
Ireland, so if there is something of that nature in the US, could you provide some links so that we can verfiy for ourselves that this is indeed the case ?

bitter

anymore wrote: »

Well I certainly know that your claim that it is mandatory for members to buy the Big Book is a complete load of nonsense !:D:D:D
So are you living in the US ? If you are I am wondering why you are posting so earnestly on what is mainly an irish site ? Not that I am suggesting you shouldnt ! It is just that it does seem as if you are carrying out a one man campaign against AA - which is why I previously asked is there a particular reason to this ? Are you nursing some resentment which is energising you ?
Again from my knowledge, AA in Ireland has abolutely no ownership or involvement in treatment centres in
Ireland, so if there is something of that nature in the US, could you provide some links so that we can verfiy for ourselves that this is indeed the case ?

So someone criticises AA they must have a RESENTMENT, thats cult-speak son.

bitter

realies wrote: »

Anybody in Ireland can go to any AA meeting anywhere,The courts in Ireland do not mandate anyone to go to AA and buying the big book is not mandatory but it is a very good read , as has been said before it is obvious that you had a very bad experience with AA and while that is unfortunate it is also sad that you want to paint every AA meeting with the same brush, But if criticising AA meetings keeps you happy, rant away.I am sure people who read your posts can see through them.

The Big Book a good read:eek:

anymore

bitter wrote: »

So someone criticises AA they must have a RESENTMENT, thats cult-speak son.

Is it......only problem is that I amnot an AA member or member of any ' cult like organisation ! So what does motivate you to speak so strongly about it so ?

Sunnyisland

bitter wrote: »

The Big Book a good read:eek:

Well I found it good and very helpful in my battle against alcoholism,so I wont be knocking it but as you are an atheist, I now see were your coming from, but i dont think its right that you should be knocking people away from an organisation that has and does help people with there alcoholism no matter what your personal beliefs are.

anymore

bitter wrote: »

So someone criticises AA they must have a RESENTMENT, thats cult-speak son.

Maybe you can give me the links I mentioned previously, please ?

anymore

bitter wrote: »

The best advice I could give anyone is to take a good hard look at the people around you in the rooms of AA/NA. You will see very depressed people with ****ed-up lives even after many years clean & sober. The insanity in those rooms is scary to say the least. Remember it is a cult of personality ie "Bill Wilsons" that is prevelent in the rooms. It is a quack religion with very high rates of suicde,depression & relapse. The delusion is astounding by many long-time members. The lies in there is beyond belief and there is no accountability. The sponser thing is a form of abuse and a newcomer hasn't a clue who this sponser really is... It is a philosophy of magical-thinking and not grounded in reality for the most part. People talking about the "messages' they got from their Higher Power ffs.

Given that alcohol is a depressant, it would be very surprising if there wasn't a high proportion of people in AA with depression of one kind or another and I should imagine, given the nature of alcohol, and I presume drugs and other addictive substances, that many it takes years for the effcts of depression to be dealt with. I should also imagine that are many in AA who originally sarted dependent drinking becase of underlying issues and problems. I believe the expression is that many dependent drinkers were using alcohol to self-medicate. So far from it being unusual that there might relatively high numbers of people in AA with psychological isuues, it would be surprising if there werent ! After all if you go into a hospital, you expect to see a lot of sick people, so if you go to a twelve step program, it is hardly surprising to many people who are still unwell.
And frankly go into general society and it is not that difficult to see people who are living life under a variety of stresses and strains- particularily in the current environment - that is life and few of us are perfect.

Satanta

bitter wrote: »

You certainly have no idea about the rooms of AA/NA have you...

AA is a corporation over here in the States. They make a serious profit out of treatment centers & have gotten the courts to mandate offenders to treatment centers & outside meetings which is unconstutional btw. Bill Wilson owned the copyright to the Big Book which is mandotory for all members to buy so he made a clean profit out of that didn't he?

Show's how little you yourself know.
1. I am a member of AA and have never been asked to buy the Big Book

2. Treatment centres are not affiliated with AA. Many treatment centres use the Minessota Model for treating addiction which is based on the 12 Step program of recovery. Alot of those are not for profit centres, and those that are not dont feed any money into AA. Also... even the preamble that is read out at every AA meeting stated :"There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions."

3. As for courts mandating offenders to treatment centres, well they do that here as well. But only where addiction is given as an "excuse" for the offenders behavior, and allot of the time instead of a custodial sentence.

bitter wrote: »

So someone criticises AA they must have a RESENTMENT, thats cult-speak son.

I wouldnt say that. But someone that is as vehemently against it as you are must have some issues with it.

bitter wrote: »

The Big Book a good read:eek:

Personal opinion counts here. Same as any other book.

bitter

anymore wrote: »

Is it......only problem is that I amnot an AA member or member of any ' cult like organisation ! So what does motivate you to speak so strongly about it so ?

because I don't like cults & quasi-cults like AA. Have you ever read up about AAs founder Bill Wilson?

anymore

bitter wrote: »

because I don't like cults & quasi-cults like AA. Have you ever read up about AAs founder Bill Wilson?

Again, could you give lonks or any kind of proof to back up your assertin that AA is a corporation that profits from is is teid to treatment centred, please ?
I know you dont like AA, but you havent given anything at all to back up your assertion that AA is a cult or is cult like ? I have in the past worked for people or under people whom i disliked but that hasnt resulted in me thinking that there was fundamentally wrong with the organisation or company itself.
As regards Bill Wilson, cults are distinguished by the rigid control they exert over members, AA seems to be doing a remarkable poor job of controlling its members if they can come and go as they please ?
I understand that AA has a saying, I dont know it is formal or informal, that " there are no bosses in AA" That seems to be the very opposite of what authoritarian organisations or cults teach !
What was your personal experience that has helped form your opinions of AA ?

Johnny Favourite

I have been to Rehab and attended a lot of AA meetings. I no longer go to AA and a shiver runs down my spine when I think of all the nights I actually said to myself leaving those meeting " I have to find God or else I'm fcuked"

It is religious. God is talked about all the time. Everyone says the Lords prayer at the end of the meetings. I just can't believe when people says is not about religion.

I didn't have any bad experiences with any of the people. Some were weird, some were mad but the vast majority were very very nice and friendly.

I could not reconcile myself to the religious side of things.....

Long story short I started drinking again.....

Anyway.... I read a book called "The cure for Alcoholism" by Roy Eskapa.....Changed my life. I have been using this method for nearly a year now. I used to black out 5 nights a week. In the last year I have blacked out once.

Crystalset

ong story short I started drinking again.....

Anyway.... I read a book called "The cure for Alcoholism" by Roy Eskapa.....Changed my life. I have been using this method for nearly a year now. I used to black out 5 nights a week. In the last year I have blacked out once.[/QUOTE]

When you say you blacked out once does that mean using this method you are allowed the odd drink?

bitter

I also encountered some very nice & genuine people in AA/NA but a hell of a lot of weirdos & nutjobs. AA/NA is religion based as it is based on the Oxford Group who were right-wing fundamentalists.

Sunnyisland

It's not a competition. I don't undertand why some of you are so hell bent on steering people away from something that may help them ? Even if only 5% of the people are helped by AA, that's still a lot of people. Give the negativity a rest already. Posts like some of the above only lead to dissention. It's about getting well. Who cares how we get there, as long as we do. Nobody makes us pick up a drink except ourselves.

Sunnyisland

[QUOTEI didn't have any bad experiences with any of the people. Some were weird, some were mad but the vast majority were very very nice and friendly. [/QUOTE]


Bit like here really

Dave!

I'm going to close this thread tomorrow probably, because this forum isn't supposed to be anything to do with treatment of addiction. It's supposed to be a place for organising social events that do not include alcohol. Sorry, but that's the directive from the powers that be, so it has to be enforced.

If anyone has any last-minute recommendations for alternatives to AA, then post them up and I'll edit the first post to include a list. Thanks.

Johnny Favourite

Crystalset wrote: »

ong story short I started drinking again.....

Anyway.... I read a book called "The cure for Alcoholism" by Roy Eskapa.....Changed my life. I have been using this method for nearly a year now. I used to black out 5 nights a week. In the last year I have blacked out once.

When you say you blacked out once does that mean using this method you are allowed the odd drink?[/QUOTE]

Yes

Johnny Favourite

Dave! wrote: »

I'm going to close this thread tomorrow probably, because this forum isn't supposed to be anything to do with treatment of addiction. It's supposed to be a place for organising social events that do not include alcohol. Sorry, but that's the directive from the powers that be, so it has to be enforced.

If anyone has any last-minute recommendations for alternatives to AA, then post them up and I'll edit the first post to include a list. Thanks.

"The Cure For Alcoholism" by Roy Eskapa.

zero_nine

Johnny Favourite wrote: »

"The Cure For Alcoholism" by Roy Eskapa.

Glad to see you had success with that. Apart from not blacking out, has it got much better?

For example, have you done much alcohol free, or are you has the obsession with alcohol reduced? PM me if the thread is closed.

Crystalset

My experience is that abstinence is easier than temperance. 20 years now but I remember the blackouts-if that is not contradictory. I also remember the sweats, anxiety, humiliations, remorse and the constant money worries.

zero_nine

Crystalset wrote: »

My experience is that abstinence is easier than temperance. 20 years now but I remember the blackouts-if that is not contradictory. I also remember the sweats, anxiety, humiliations, remorse and the constant money worries.

And so did you quit on your own then or what is your story?

Crystalset

I had been very ill-pneumonia & emphyema which required surgery. Doctors gave me the red card (I always hoped someone would say to me 'for you the war is over', never happened). After 10 months I had proved them right.
One night I drank 7 pints of Stella draught lager. I had a check-up next
day & the doc found rapid pulse + high BP + he did a blood test, then he just shrugged, said he was not going to say any more. On the way home I decided I'd try one day at a time. A publican friend, an AA man, told me
that if I was not prepared to go to meetings I should walk & get rid of energy-very good advice. Used to do 5 or 6 miles every day.
Three months on the going got hard, not a craving for alcohol but dealing with everyday problems without my crutch. Eventually I went for counselling-the best thing I've ever done. I was very lucky I got on really well with my counsellor. I had 16 hourly sessions, then it was suggested
I try life on my own. Naturally there are good days & bad days but c'est la vie.
Sometimes I wonder why me? Why have I survived when so many of my friends have succumbed?
Maybe meetings would have made the journey easier, I never dismissed the idea thinking that if I had a relapse I would give it a go. I think the main reason I kept off it is I would never want to go thru' those early days again.