Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

crustyjuggler

Theres more to life than the bottle .

McCool

danger mouse wrote: »

Well tbh we all make stupid choices my impulse to get drunk on my nights of from work are so powerful i cant stop it. It's second nature at this stage. fair play to those who are able to stop drinking id love to give up drinking but i really dont know what i could replace it with at the moment. Hard luck on my part.

Hi Dangermouse,

Alcohol and other addictive narcotics nearly always give the heavy user the belief that it cant be replaced. Dont believe it.
Drink used to take up a large percentage of my time and conciousness and I thought life would be too dull without. I was completely wrong.
Is there anything you were into as a youngster before you got into the scene? Anything you want to try out to do? One idea is to plan a major holiday for yourself as a reward for giving up drinking. The worlds your oyster. After you give up you slowly start seeking out alternatives until (and not overnight) drink takes up less and less of your thoughts until eventually your life is filled with other (good) things. Take up stuff and Join clubs to meet people. Get a pair of runners and use the extra time to get fit again. Starting reading about interests you may have had. Meet new people.
Dont believe that there arent alternatives. Its natural to think that because you drink a lot. Anyone else who tells you there arent replacements probably drinks a lot too.

As for the AA stuff mentioned in earlier posts: if you believe that theres a power greater than yourself it implies that you also believe you are not the greatest power in the world. This is important for recovering Alcoholics because they tend to try and carry all their problems on their shoulders all the time, which can eventually drive them back to drink. This enables them to try and deal with their problems by handing them over to a greater power (i.e. not carrying them around with them).
The nature of that power is completely up to the individual. I look at it as the entire universe apart from me. At the end of the day it means I try and sort out any problems as they arise and then I let them go and move on.
AA is spiritual but not religious.

TM

My spouse has done a few stints in residential treatment programmes (one a Minnesota Model/12 Step one which, to me, was a waste of time and money) and has been attending AA for almost a year now almost daily (and sometimes more than once a day). They seem to think that AA helps to keep them sober but personally I have severe reservations about the whole thing, the "programme", the spiritual/quasi religious nature, what I see as the cult like aspects of it, the abrogation of control/responsibility to a higher power/God/the fellowship etc. etc. I have to say that a lot of what is written here strikes a chord with me even if some of it may be a little OTT:

http://www.orange-papers.org/

I have attended some AlAnon meetings mysef as well as the family "therapy" as part of the 12 step residential programme mentioned above and had similar reservations/skepticism (which I voiced to no real avail). Maybe this whole 12 Step thing is for some people but I have to say that it all gives me the creeps - especially being an atheist and no great believer in "spirituality" in general.

Karen_*

When you say there's a cult aspect to AA I can see why you'd see that. I used to think that myself. But the absence of there being any leaders and the fact they look for no money from members would be very un-cultlike. Yes it's a sipritual programme but the higher power is not specified, its up to the individual, their higher power just might be a belief that Aa works or the support of their friends. Again, very uncult like. Catholics in particular seem to hear God mentioned and balk at it but that says more about Catholicism than AA.

TM

Ultimately my own problem with AA/12 step is that it's all predicated on SOME sense of spirituality and, as an atheist (in case you were assuming that I was a Catholic) and somebody who strongly believes in rational/logical/skeptical thinking and has no truck with any form of mumbo jumbo, I personally don't have ANY sense of "spirituality" - especially one that involves abrogating personal responsibility and control to some nebulous "higher power" in order to deal with the issues. This, it seems, has to be a deal breaker when it comes to "believing in" 12 step programmes. And belief/faith IS what it's all predicated on. This is why AlAnon is not for me and why I remain skeptical about how useful AA actually is for my spouse. I would have more confidence in the non AA help that they have been getting recently (e.g. psychological (including cognitive therapies) and psychiatric help, drug treatments etc.) as having been instrumental in them maintaining a relatively successful level of sobriety and balance.

BTW - when you say that there are no leaders this is simply not true. There IS a hierarchy in AA. Albeit they claim that it is an inverted pyramid with the central council subordinate to the individual members rather than the other way around. However I know of at least one AA meeting who have been "excommunicated" because they did not toe whatever line the central organising committee mandated. They didn't even get a chance to deal with whatever issues were involved first.

Karen_*

When you say excommunicated do you mean not allowed to attend meetings anywhere? I don't think that would be likely to happen.

There aren't leaders in it. Long time members maybe but then you can't ask someone to leave it after a period of time. Each person themself decides whether or not they're a member.

I totally see where you're coming from and I'm remembering that I saw it exactly the way you did at one stage. But I learnt more about it and realise that I actually was wrong in alot of my thinkings and assumptions. With all due respect, I'm not saying you're wrong at all. I'm trying to in a very clumsy way say that your views actually aren't off the wall as it DOES seem culty etc until you get a bit more information. Also its definately not perect either, its made up of humans and yes, some humans do get above themselves and think they're above others. In AA they are classed as the dry drunks.

TM

Sorry - the group were "disaffiliated". Obviously individuals were not "banned" from attending any meetings.

I also have a serious problem with AA labelling such as "dry drunks" and so on (and they do employ a lot of cant phrases like that). It always reminds me of the likes of Scientologists calling wayward (former) members "suppressive persons".

I appreciate you taking the time to engage with me on this issue but it looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that my views are the result of having insufficient information about or experience of AA/12 step programmes and I don't see them changing.

As I said before - much of what I have read on the Orange Papers website mentioned above tallies with my own views which I arrived at independently and before even being aware of the site.

Karen_*

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. And who's to say who's right? Its probably somewhere in between. Thanks TM

luckylucky

I don't know a whole lot about AA tbh, but there does seem to be a bit of mumo-jumbo about the organisation from what I can gather. Get the impression that they somehow see the alcoholic as a weak person who's inherently flawed which imo is a load of BS.

I quit drinking after reading the Allen Carr Book - different things work for different people and well so far it's worked for me and I would say I agree with about 99% of the stuff in his book. What I liked about it was the positivity - the only things that come to mind that I would disagree with is he says you don't need willpower and his term 'Easyway'. I think you need willpower at certain times, especially over the first few months of quitting - and it sort of helps to have your defense ready in your head ahead of time to deal with it. I'd swap in 'Slightly less difficult Way' for Easyway also

-danny-boy-

collie50 wrote: »

Hi,


Im aware the guys who created this non drinkers forum dont want it to become a rehab spot but do unhooked run meetings in Ireland?

I dont want to be to critical of AA but it does my head right in.
Just cant deal with that religious 12 step higher power stuff!

http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/006854.html

its not all bout god and higher power dats just wat sum people believe in its completey up2 u 2 make wat ever u want as ur higher power it can be a cat a dog a feckin chair in the corner of the room so long as dat it can help keep u clean and sober!:D

-danny-boy-

ne1 online?

TM

luckylucky wrote: »

I don't know a whole lot about AA tbh, but there does seem to be a bit of mumo-jumbo about the organisation from what I can gather. Get the impression that they somehow see the alcoholic as a weak person who's inherently flawed which imo is a load of BS.

It's not an impression - it's a central part of the 12 steps and the wider ethos of the programme/fellowship. Step 6 for example. And lots more like that in the many AA publications.

TM

-danny-boy- wrote: »

its not all bout god and higher power dats just wat sum people believe in its completey up2 u 2 make wat ever u want as ur higher power it can be a cat a dog a feckin chair in the corner of the room so long as dat it can help keep u clean and sober!:D

AA/12 steps is predicated on having SOME sense of spirituality which means it's pointless for those, like me, who don't believe in such mumbo jumbo. The whole higher power thing is at best questionable and at worst sinister in my opinion. Maybe abrogating (some?) responsibility for one's addiction and recovery to some nebulous concept is OK by some people. To me it makes little sense.

BTW - my spouse has fallen off the wagon yet again in spite of all the AA and other help that has been available. Of course the AA people I know just say "not ready yet", "has to fall further", and other platitudinous nonsense like that.

Blisterman

I know of one guy who was an alocholic and tried AA, hated it, and ended up giving up alone.

He said that he considers giving up drink to be one of the proudest things he'd done, and that AA would have taken his achievment away from him, as their whole line is, you have to admit you have no power over your own actions, and recovery is thanks to you asking for it, from a higher power.
I'm not an alcoholic, but I'd be inclined to agree with him. There must be an alternative group, which thinks the same way. If not, someone should start one.

TM

There are alternatives such as SMART Recovery and another one mentioned earlier above but unfortunately I don't think that they operate in Ireland at the moment. I could be wrong.

luckylucky

TM wrote: »

It's not an impression - it's a central part of the 12 steps and the wider ethos of the programme/fellowship. Step 6 for example. And lots more like that in the many AA publications.

Well AA wouldn't have been for me then.

Anyone else have a problem with the term Alcoholic btw, I think it's a very subjective term. I mean when I was a drinker, a teetotaler would have been horrified by the amount I drank and would have had no hesitation in considering me an alcoholic, a 'chronic alcoholic' would have laughed his head off and said get the f outta here if I said I was an alcoholic. A regular drinker would probably think well you might need to cut back a bit, but nah you're not an alcoholic. So which one is it then? One point of view I have on it is that drink itself is the problem and it's all just degrees of how far down you are on the slippery slope that is drinking alcohol.

TM

luckylucky wrote: »

Anyone else have a problem with the term Alcoholic btw, I think it's a very subjective term.

Yes - I do and it is. And with AA if you attend and say that you're an alcoholic then you are and if you say that you're not then you're in denial or (if not drinking) a "dry drunk". Even the medical definitions are woolly. The US DSM-IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV) has one definition but remember that these guys used to define homosexuality as a disease too!

collie50

I also know of a case in AA were a person told his sponsor some really private information.

They then had a falling out over something silly.

The sponsor went and told everyone in the group the private information.

Now thats some outfit...

I know it works for some but it just appears to be the blind leading the blind to me.

BTW Im still sober and dont go to AA. Infact they give me the shivers...

Join a gym, read, work, family, hobbies, live life and dont be a AA victim

TM

collie50 wrote: »

I also know of a case in AA were a person told his sponsor some really private information.

They then had a falling out over something silly.

The sponsor went and told everyone in the group the private information.

Now thats some outfit...

To be fair this is outrageous behaviour on the part of an individual and not something that I would imagine AA as a whole would condone. Of course there is nothing to stop it happening and the organization has no powers that I know of to "reprimand" somebody for such a breach of confidence.

I know of incidents of 13th stepping (look it up), one particularly close to home, which is also outrageous but which the organization as a whole will take no responsibility for and individual members just dismiss as the choice of the individuals involved in spite of the havoc that it wreaks on third parties (added to the havoc already wreaked by the addiction in the first place).

Karen_*

I don't think you can blame one adult breaking another adults confidence on an organisation. Well you can but its neither fair nor correct.

If you're not an alcoholic yourself TM then maybe bear in mind that someone else who's reading might have a drink problem that's destroying their life and AA might actually help them. Or maybe not. But when I was drinking and my life was in tatters reading this would have put me off AA. And my life would still be in tatters if I was still alive that is. Post some facts and not your opinion or other opinions and all negative ones for that matter.

TM

Karen_* wrote: »

I don't think you can blame one adult breaking another adults confidence on an organisation. Well you can but its neither fair nor correct.

Well in the case I mentioned the person in question was a serial 13th stepper who used AA as a handy place to source sexual services from presumably vulnerable individuals. But this person remains a "respected" member who gets invited to chair meetings and also offers their services to members of the opposite sex for one on one Big Book grinds - and the rest... In this specific case I feel that the group(s) or AA as a whole DOES have something to answer for in not addressing the behaviour of this individual.

If you're not an alcoholic yourself TM then maybe bear in mind that someone else who's reading might have a drink problem that's destroying their life and AA might actually help them. Or maybe not.

I'm not an alcoholic. I have not said that others should not try it. Just as I have tried AlAnon and found it unsuitable for my needs and incompatible with my personal beliefs/values. I would point out that AA has been largely useless for my spouse to date and more mainstream medical/psychological treatments they have availed of have held out more promise. A 5 week stint in a 12 Step/Minnesota Model residential care facility was a particular waste of time and money (c. €9K). But then AA aficionados will probably just say "they're just not ready yet, they need to fall further" and come up with other similar fatalistic platitudes.

But when I was drinking and my life was in tatters reading this would have put me off AA. And my life would still be in tatters if I was still alive that is. Post some facts and not your opinion or other opinions and all negative ones for that matter.

I have posted some facts above. And I don't see why I should be constrained from posting my opinions or reprimanded by others such as yourself for doing so especially since I am not aware of being in breach of any posting guidelines by doing this. I certainly don't see that my not being an alcoholic should preclude me from commenting on AA/12 Steps etc.

collie50

Karen,

I dont think TM was negative but speaking the truth reference the 13th step... You must know and admit this does happen?

Your reply is kinda what this thread has been saying ie:

'don't dare say anything bad about AA or the Lord will strike you down'

It is our right to say good and bad about AA if we wish, this is not Saudi Aribia. Its our right... AA works for some but as stated before it gives me the shivers and do believe its a CULT.

The big book is the most NEGATIVE BOOK I have ever read on Alcohol. Telling readers they are weak, sinful, bad people ect

My opionion!

bletherlass31

hey,

i just wanted to say as an attendee of AA, i am not a religious nut, i was 23 wen i joined aa, scared ****less. anyone that stays around aa long enough will find out that aa is not religious...........i too thought in the beginning it was..........when i heard all this higher power stuff i didnt know what they were talking about. it means its your own belief really, god is not pushed on anyone, a hp can be anything and anyone.
but yes aa works for some and not for all.....but my experience is it works for me nothing else does so.....thats telling me something. when nothing else would work for me aa is there, when i had a slip aa was there....it never turns me away, if i use if properly it will work. if you really want to stop it will work. in my opinion alternative to AA there is none, drinking, depression insanity or death there is an alternative for you. but thats just my opinion because ive experienced them all bar death and i am not willing to seek that one out i rather go to aa. its saved my life and continues to do so.

estar

you meet all types of people with all types of needs at AA meetings. some people need hope in their lives and the higher power gives them that. the belief that they can pray, look for hope, get strength from an external source of whatever source helps them.

none of us has the right to apply rationality to this and try and take it away from them. it isnt rational. it isnt logical. you can't put on a weighing scales and measure it, but for them it works.

i dont think that people who arent alcoholics can make judgements on what works for alcoholics, what it feels like to be one and what they should and shouldnt do with any authority.

they can comment on how they feel dealing with one. but they cant comment on being one. becuase its profoundly different to anything they as non addicts have experienced.

the difference between AA, and most cults, and also most other recovery programmes/

WHEN YOU HAVE DRUNK YOUR LAST EURO, YOU CAN ATTEND FOR NOTHING, RECEIVE SUPPORT AND UNCONDITIONAL REGARD FROM FELLOW SUFFERERS FOR AS LITTLE AS YOU CAN AFFORD TO DONATE. YOU CAN SPEND ALL DAY IN MEETINGS IF LIFE IS TOO HARD TO BEAR ON YOUR OWN. PEOPLE TALK TO YOU AND CARE ABOUT YOU. AND THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY PRECIOUS RESOURCE PROVIDED FOR FREE ALL AROUND THIS COUNTRY BY NORMAL MEN AND WOMEN STRUGGLING WITH THEMSELVES AND THIER CONDITION.

no one asks you to sign anything, no one asks your name, anything about you. the code of secrecy is taken very seriously. people can turn up drunk and upset at meetings and they are spoken to and allowed speak without judgement. it gives people a last outpost of shelter and hope on the road to ruin. and its practically free. this means its not just people who can afford private rehab that can recover. and thats really why i like it. if you are homeless on the street. you can still go to AA. no one will judge you there.

i dont feel anyone who hasnt needed this resource so badly they wanted to die has the right to condemn it or hold up single examples of where it might have gone wrong as a reason not to attend as it might discourage people from walking through the door and maybe finding help.

and if other resources offer the same result. brilliant. i couldnt care less if people had to believe in the great ape god of china as long as they didnt destroy themselves with addiction.

i found the big book profoundly revealing and recognised myself in some anectdotes. the whole control and higher power thing is because addicts are generally made selfish and controlling by their addiction and enter a blame escape cycle - and they feel they should be in control. and they have to admit

i have no control over alcohol.

and to me that was the scariest thing i have ever done in my entire life. and to realise i wasnt alone in this, was very valuable. as i have had control over everything, my entire life. the definition of me was control. if i wanted to achieve it, it was done. i defined my life. until i realised i had an alcohol problem.

so to hand over my beliefs to an external source of tenuous origin, was an act of desperation.

which any non addict i believe cannot understand.

i now believe that wishing for strength gives me strength to over come lifes problems.

that is all that was required for me to function within AA. and yes there are all types of people there, from the straight laced to people who are out of rehab to people who may have lost some cognitive powers due to years of abuse. and in that room, we are all equals. people return there for 10-20 years after they quit to offer hope to others.

in a proper AA meeting they generally tend not to meet up out of hours, that was my impression. i am not sure about the sponsor thing. i havent felt comfortable with trying it. i gave up relatively easily. so far. we were all anonymous. i would never discuss anyone i saw, or meet up with anyone in a meeting after a meeting, because the spirit of AA is that it all stays in the room with the group.

but AA was great. thats all i can say. i dont know if i will go through the rest of the steps. however i will say this - the most unlikely people have achieved great insights into themselves as people and for the first time in their lives started to think deeply about their existence because they were encouraged to do so at AA.

and also the idea that an addict wont recover until they are ready.

THIS IS CORRECT. your mis understanding of this is precisely why you cant comment on what its like to be an addict.

yes, its annoying. yes its counter logical. yes its not a great way to live your life responsibly. welcome to the world of being an addict where one day you wake up and realise all these things for yourself. but until that day comes everyone can tell you, and you will still say

but ill just have the one like everyone else.

what AA and any other group i hope offers is solidarity, understanding, and an insight into addiction. that it is a disease of the spirit. that alcohol and drugs take away your personal freedom and impair you as a human being if you are of the pre-disposition.

and if you met me you would not think i had a problem with alcohol. it most definitely isnt a choice. i have suceeded at everything i have ever wanted to. except this. and even i, profoundly rational, said the same old things to myself and hurt people i loved. sure i dont have a problem. me? successful me? fooled myself. with the same old crap that every addict ive met says to themselves.

so for those who cant understand - there but for the grace of god / the universe / mother nature go you.

estar

is not a measure of how much you drink. it simply means you have no control over alcohol. in that, if you drink you have no control over what happens to you. you may stop at two. or you may wake up in a police cell. or you may lose your job. you will act out of character. you will experience profound changes in character. you most likely wont remember it.

most people that can drink know whats going to happen to them when they drink, and can control its effect on them. they can sober up.

i never drank much at all. the max would have been 3 bottles of wine a week. but if i went out, it got to the stage i didnt know what might happen. i used to have some control but then gradually i didnt. i started off the same as my friends, but my friends started telling me maybe i shoudnt drink. thats what makes me an alcoholic. you dont have to be sitting under a bridge drinking out of a paper bag. it also starts small and grows. so i would hve started the same as my friends, and ended drinking at home on my own, and preferring that rather than explain my drinking.

it started to take a hold over me. its difficult to explain. and even when there were massive logical reasons why i should stop, i found myself not stopping and making excuses for why i wouldnt.

a dry drunk is someone who is still wishing they were drinking and experiencing longings for drink, and experiencing bad moods because of that, and who hasnt done some personal work on personal growth to see what their purpose in life is, which i believe for all of us, is to add value to this world. they havent built a fulfilling life without drink or drugs. they have just stopped drinking. and for some people this isnt enough just to stop. they also need some personal work. which i believe comes best from a good therapist perhaps with their families.

this is what i think and have experienced.

TM

estar wrote: »

none of us has the right to apply rationality to this and try and take it away from them. it isnt rational. it isnt logical. you can't put on a weighing scales and measure it, but for them it works.

Sorry - but I personally find this sort of "reasoning" dangerous. If we are not allowed to question, apply rationality and logic and give our views (in spite of not being addicts/alcoholics - although having had at least second hand experience) then we may as well give up and believe in any old mumbo jumbo. And because some people do doesn't mean that we all should.

i dont think that people who arent alcoholics can make judgements on what works for alcoholics

Of course they can! They or anybody else can look at the hard evidence about what sort of treatments work or not. Personally I find it insulting but unfortunately typical of some AA "believers" to dismiss the views of non alcoholics/addicts on such matters. This ignores the fact that the same (or slightly modified) 12 steps that AA uses are applied to a plethora of other situations including those not involving addiction at all (e.g. AlAnon, AlAteen etc.). So if these magic 12 steps are supposed to work for non addicts as well then surely we can have our say on them?

the code of secrecy is taken very seriously.

Not in my experience. I know plenty of AA members who gossip about others who attend (especially those who might be well known generally - e.g. "celebrities" or others in the public eye).

i dont feel anyone who hasnt needed this resource so badly they wanted to die has the right to condemn it or hold up single examples of where it might have gone wrong as a reason not to attend as it might discourage people from walking through the door and maybe finding help.

In case that might be directed at me let me make it clear that I am no "condemning" it or saying that people in need should not try it (just as I have tried AlAnon but found it not compatible with my own value/belief system) but that does not preclude me or others from having opinions on it including some that may be critical.

and also the idea that an addict wont recover until they are ready.

THIS IS CORRECT. your mis understanding of this is precisely why you cant comment on what its like to be an addict.

Again - if this is directed at me then I totally reject the assertion that I cannot comment on such matters just because I am not an alcoholic.

so for those who cant understand - there but for the grace of god / the universe / mother nature go you.

Sorry - but I don't buy into this sort of fatalism.

AA is not and should not be above scrutiny - and criticism where applicable. I make no apology for expressing my own views/concerns here and elsewhere and will certainly not desist just because some people do not like them and some may even dismiss them as irrelevant because they come from a non alcoholic/addict. I am happy to hear that some people claim to have benefited from attending meetings and engaging in the "programme" such as it is but I know of plenty who have not and to dismiss such failures as simply being a result of the individuals in question "not being ready" to change is a facile argument and insulting to anybody with an iota of intelligence and capability of rational/logical thought.

Karen_*

collie50 wrote: »

Karen,

I dont think TM was negative but speaking the truth reference the 13th step... You must know and admit this does happen?

Your reply is kinda what this thread has been saying ie:

'don't dare say anything bad about AA or the Lord will strike you down'

It is our right to say good and bad about AA if we wish, this is not Saudi Aribia. Its our right... AA works for some but as stated before it gives me the shivers and do believe its a CULT.

The big book is the most NEGATIVE BOOK I have ever read on Alcohol. Telling readers they are weak, sinful, bad people ect

My opionion!

Yeah and you're entitled to that Collie. I'm not saying don't say anything bad about AA. But its a bit rich a non-alcoholic with a big grudge sitting here sniping and scaremongering when he will never need something like AA. AA has helped me enormously. Of course its not perfect and no I've never heard the term third stepping - I'm only three months sober. But Over the last year I've looked for information on alcoholism, I couldn't afford a treatment centre and if I'd read TM's take on it all I wouldn't have gone near AA either.

Ok some people don't like AA and don't have a problem with the big book. Well I haven't read all of it but what I've read makes sense to me. And yeah we are all weak willed people alcoholics and non-alcoholics alike. But disliking AA is one thing. Creating an impression of the group and its memebers as to be avoided at all costs is just plain wrong coming from someone who doesn't even have a drink problem! And its no AA's fault or failing that she drank. She drank because she's an alcoholic!

Karen_*

TM wrote: »

AA is not and should not be above scrutiny - and criticism where applicable. I make no apology for expressing my own views/concerns here and elsewhere and will certainly not desist just because some people do not like them and some may even dismiss them as irrelevant because they come from a non alcoholic/addict. I am happy to hear that some people claim to have benefited from attending meetings and engaging in the "programme" such as it is but I know of plenty who have not and to dismiss such failures as simply being a result of the individuals in question "not being ready" to change is a facile argument and insulting to anybody with an iota of intelligence and capability of rational/logical thought.

TM you're very entitled to your beleifs and your opinions but can you be aware that they are your opinions and not facts and not how some of us who are actually going through it see them. So just maybe you're not 100% right or anything like it. You've bitter experiences as far as I can see with individuals. But some readers might desperately need the help AA has to offer and it might just work for them. You don't need AA but other people do. If you're going to slate it and scaremonger then at least suggest an alterative with a great success rate.

TM

Karen_* wrote: »

But its a bit rich a non-alcoholic with a big grudge sitting here sniping and scaremongering when he will never need something like AA.

I am not sniping and scaremongering. I have already said several times that I am not telling people NOT to use AA but I am skeptical about its use in the general case and very dubious about the fundamental ethos and value system underpinning the whole thing. I never said that I would never need "anything like AA" but if I did (e.g. if I developed an addiction) then I would probably choose something other than AA and something with some scientific evidence of efficacy.

But disliking AA is one thing. Creating an impression of the group and its memebers as to be avoided at all costs is just plain wrong coming from someone who doesn't even have a drink problem! And its no AA's fault or failing that she drank. She drank because she's an alcoholic!

Please read my posts more carefully - I never said any of the above which you are attributing to me. Typical case of an AA believer shooting the messenger because they don't like the message/opinion. :rolleyes:

TM

Karen_* wrote: »

TM you're very entitled to your beleifs and your opinions but can you be aware that they are your opinions and not facts

My experiences and opinions are based on fact. For more maybe read some of the reports on the efficacy of AA in treating alcoholics. For example:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

And don't forget other factors that may be at play like spontaneous remission, regressive fallacy (e.g. I was "cured" after the last thing that I tried so this establishes cause and effect) etc.

So just maybe you're not 100% right or anything like it.

But YOU are?

You don't need AA but other people do. If you're going to slate it and scaremonger then at least suggest an alterative with a great success rate.

I am not slating and scaremongering. I think that I have been pretty balanced in my posts so far and have simply given some of my own opinions, experiences and referred to other more general and objective analysis that may not paint AA in the same positive light that believers and, it seems, society in general might hold it. Fair enough if you don't agree and want to engage in discussion/debate but basically urging me not to post ANYTHING critical of AA is at best ridiculous and at worst indicative of supercilious arrogance, closed mindedness and blind faith regardless of any counter arguments.