Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

estar

you are applying scientific logic to something that cannot entirely be measured that way TM. its like trying to measure an emotion. how can you measure something like that. you clearly must have had some traumatic experiences to be this bitter about AA. and i think thats terrible. all i can say is that i met decent, humble, kind and caring people there, who actually gave a crap, and werent talking about my experiences from a professional angle ie - they had been there. they hadnt measured it, read about it, tried to quantify it, they had actually felt what i felt, and been where i had been, and most of them in a far more painful way. and often it takes that level of understanding to reach someone who is an addict. and i had been to therapists, and councillors on this issue and i have to say AA gave me more of an insight into addiction than any theory presented to me.

comment all you like TM. but you are not presenting facts in a balanced way. you are using heresay and single occurrences to present an entire view of a massive organisation.

just because it doesnt do it for you and you dont understand it doesnt make it wrong. it makes it wrong for you, someone without any addiction problems.

i dont think its AA that is the problem for you. i think its the manner in which they dont judge alcoholics which often proves difficult for people who have suffered at the hands of alcoholics and want them to be judged. they think that being told alcoholism is a disease is giving them a cop out. it doesnt. it helps them understand in language most people of all backgrounds can relate to what they suffer from. it helps them with abstinence. it helps them make amends. it gives people hope. people of every background and social class. it asks for virtually nothing in return. but it isnt a cure. its up to the person themselves to do the work. and when we say the person isnt ready, it means the person isnt ready to do the work and face themselves. and yes some people will never be ready. thats life.

anyway i wont comment further. you are entitled to your opinion TM. unfortunately is isnt of much use to anyone seeking help for an addiction. because you are trying to use scientific arguements and logic to discuss an emotional problem. and those two things arent really compatible. emotional pain isnt logical. addiction isnt logical.

if addiction was so straight forward the introduction of ant abuse would have eliminated it. thats the logical solution.

and it didnt

TM

estar wrote: »

you clearly must have had some traumatic experiences to be this bitter about AA.

...
but you are not presenting facts in a balanced way. you are using heresay and single occurrences to present an entire view of a massive organisation.

Once again it seems typical in my experience for some AA believers to attempt to dismiss criticism and opinions to which they object as the result of bitterness, bias, misrepresentation or overgeneralisation. If you want to do this so be it but you are wrong.

comment all you like TM.

I will - thanks.

just because it doesnt do it for you and you dont understand it doesnt make it wrong. it makes it wrong for you, someone without any addiction problems.

The fact that I am not an addict in no way precludes me from commenting. Especially since, like many others, I have indirect experience of addicts and AA/12 steps.

i dont think its AA that is the problem for you. i think its the manner in which they dont judge alcoholics which often proves difficult for people who have suffered at the hands of alcoholics and want them to be judged.

Well you would be wrong again. I have never posted anything that should give anybody the idea that this is my "problem".

it gives people hope. people of every background and social class.

I certainly don't "get" how telling somebody that they're powerless over something helps them. As the link that I posted earlier says there may be some evidence that this sort of message increases the risk of binge drinking.

it asks for virtually nothing in return. but it isnt a cure. its up to the person themselves to do the work. and when we say the person isnt ready, it means the person isnt ready to do the work and face themselves. and yes some people will never be ready. thats life.

anyway i wont comment further. you are entitled to your opinion TM. unfortunately is isnt of much use to anyone seeking help for an addiction.

In YOUR opinion.

because you are trying to use scientific arguements and logic to discuss an emotional problem. and those two things arent really compatible. emotional pain isnt logical. addiction isnt logical.

Yeah - looks like the Big Book would like to dispense with logic and depend on (blind) faith. In my opinion this is at best questionable advice (red highlighting is my own):

http://www.whytehouse.com/big_book_search/book/ch4p53.html

"Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions. That is one of man´s magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, "We don´t know."

When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crises we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn´t. What was our choice to be?
Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted with the question of faith. We couldn´t duck the issue. Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits. Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But somehow, we couldn´t quite step ashore. Perhaps we had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile and we did not like to lose our support."

if addiction was so straight forward the introduction of ant abuse would have eliminated it. thats the logical solution.

No - not all diseases have a 100% remission/recovery rate so logic/rationalism alone is no guarantee of a panacea. It's a good place to start though.

estar

im bored by the relentless commenting now

you win TM.

AA is completely useless and works for no one. that article by the man called A. Orange totally bowled me over, and that one about reason was just amazing.

wow im converted. god is dead. man is god. all faith is a joke. there is only reason, we are all walking mathematical models and rationality can explain everything

why havent i seen this all before? and you are right all those alcoholics sitting around having free tea and biscuits and discussing how they are getting along being abstinent. that IS really scary and spooky.

we should just lock all alcoholics that refuse to give up away if they are too weak to give up through the power of reason alone.

better still lets burn them.

estar

i am now an agnostic too. so you can take your laser like amazing rational powers off me now and go and hunt down others who like me are not yet enlightened by your god like rationality and amazing multi quoting.

quick - there is a depressed person in personal issues. tell them they can get over it

by the power of reason alone!!!!! logic solves everything!!!!

TM

estar wrote: »

im bored by the relentless commenting now

you win TM.

AA is completely useless and works for no one.

I never asserted that. :rolleyes:

And as for this comment...

we should just lock all alcoholics that refuse to give up away if they are too weak to give up through the power of reason alone.

better still lets burn them.

... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

If you can't even bother to discuss/debate the issue without resorting to misrepresenting my posts and then posting facile/puerile comments then what's the point?

estar

you made me see the light. all this time. and i was wrong. i found some more research by A. Banana that backed up the in depth research by A. Orange.

it all makes sense now.

TM

For somebody who ostensibly considers this to be a serious topic you have a funny way of showing it. Posting such rubbish in no way rebuts the opinions that I have expressed and just makes you look silly.

Karen_*

TM wrote: »

I am not slating and scaremongering. I think that I have been pretty balanced in my posts so far and have simply given some of my own opinions, experiences and referred to other more general and objective analysis that may not paint AA in the same positive light that believers and, it seems, society in general might hold it. Fair enough if you don't agree and want to engage in discussion/debate but basically urging me not to post ANYTHING critical of AA is at best ridiculous and at worst indicative of supercilious arrogance, closed mindedness and blind faith regardless of any counter arguments.

I'm not urging you to not post anything critical but please be clear that in most cases and probably ALL cases you're talking about individuals who may have had a bit of a gossip and the like. Things like that don't happen outside AA of course, it is the unique brainwashing tactic they use to force us into religion. Its not really about addiction at all.

You're not criticising, you're obsessed and obviously harbour a big grudge against particular members of the organisation. Obviously! Would you be here talking negatively at length about something that's really nothing to do with you if you weren't obsessed? Yeah its not perfect but it really helps alot of people. Hundreds of thousands of people have a bit of peace in their lives thanks AA. And whats wrong with having a God if people want to have one. No one says you have to have one. So keep your opinions on AA and by all means don't change them but you've well made your point now. We know you're very angry with AA. And I just think its more than a bit selfish of you to sit here trying to put genuine suffering addicts off a organisation that you'll never want and need. That seriously could be life or death for someone. But thats not as important as your grudge apparently.

Karen_*

TM wrote: »

For somebody who ostensibly considers this to be a serious topic you have a funny way of showing it. Posting such rubbish in no way rebuts the opinions that I have expressed and just makes you look silly.

So who won the debate TM? Was it you or was it you?

A persons addiction and recovery is their own responsibility. Your wife drank after joining AA. So did I and I've gone back. I picked up the drink though and I drank it because I'm an alcoholic. It certainly wasn't AA's fault or failing.

TM

Karen - I'm not "obsessed" about this. To infer this from my posting here is simply wrong. In any case since the level of debate and discussion on this thread seems so poor I won't waste my time posting again.

estar - I'm not interested in using boards.ie as some sort of confessional or therapy in relation to my experiences living with an alcoholic (although not for much longer thankfully). I have other outlets for that sort of thing.

estar

as it is difficult to live with an alcoholic who hasnt recovered yet or who relapses. its horrible.

mazcon

I can only add my own experience to this debate. I am not an alcoholic but I am married to one. In total desperation I started going to Alanon meetings 7 years ago. I was on my knees in despair and I saw myself as a victim of my husband's alcoholism. I couldn't see where my responsibilities ended and where his were supposed to begin. I tried (and failed miserably) to control him and his drinking. I was worn out and totally frustrated with my life. Alanon made no sense to me at all in the beginning and I was very wary of the references to a higher power. After a month or so I started to understand the programme a bit better and began to turn my focus on to myself and my life. All this time, my husband carried on drinking , in fact I would say it got worse. After about 18 months he agreed to go to a treatment centre for a month and over night our lives changed. Part of his aftercare programme was to attend AA every week...they recommended at least 2 meetings but he only ever went to 1 a week. He relapsed after about 7 months and a cycle of sobriety and relapse started which was to go on for the next 5 years. Through this I continued to go to Alanon every week and I carried on with my life and decided to separate from him. I had got to the point of appointing a barrister to represent me in court when he went back to AA and really got sober. Sadly, he relapsed again a year later as he stopped going to his meetings. However, last year he went back to AA and now goes every week faithfully and he is the best he has ever been in terms of sobriety and honesty with himself and with me. The life we have now is, without doubt, largely thanks to AA and Alanon. It may not work for everyone but it has worked for us and I know of many families that it has worked for too. I can't give a scientific reason for why it works for us ...it just does! All I know is that when my husband attends AA he stays sober and when he stops he relapses. He loves the support he gets there, he doesn't feel judged, he doesn't have to explain the unexplainable... the people in the rooms understand exactly where he is coming from.
For me, Alanon has taught me that I am not responsible for another adult and I am entitled to make decisions based on what I believe to be best for me. I apply the principles of Alanon to my whole life and not just to my dealings with alcoholics. I know I am powerless over someone else's behaviour but I am not a victim and I don't have to accept unacceptable behaviour from anyone. I can not see there ever being a time when I won't attend Alanon, it's part of my life now and the very best thing about it is it's free!

Rrrroger

I'm in AA, and I need to be clear, I can only speak for myself. I am not speaking for AA as a whole. This is one person's opinion.

AA is like any other group of people. You'll have well balanced individuals, and you'll have a bunch of flaming dickheads. You'll have them in the same room.

There are meetings which I will generally avoid because I don't get anything out of as a combination of the people there and maybe how they run the meeting and what they focus on, and there are meetings I will make an absolute point to make because I will always hear what something that helps me, and I will leave it feeling better than when I arrived at it.

My advice to anyone who goes to an AA meeting and doesn't like vibe there is go to a different meeting. Find a different meeting with different people in it. Try a few. You will find people you like and can connect with.

I've encountered both aethiests in AA who clearly have their **** together, and I've encountered Born Again Christians who clearly do not. I've encountered aethiests in AA who haven't got a clue where there head is at, and I've encountered Born Agains who have their house and their head in order. In general, I admire anyone with their stuff together.

I've been sober for over 2 years. I've done it with the help of Alcoholics Anonymous, using the 12 steps as a jumping off point, keeping an open mind, and like when being in any group of people, using discernment about who I listen to, and who I ignore. In general, I'll at least give a fair hearing to anyone who seems to have their life in order, and be content.

I've read a lot of the AA literature, and like anything written by different folks at different times, some it I can take, some of it I can leave. Essentially, all anyone writing any of that stuff is trying to do is trying to explain the way they kept sober. Pass the message on. Giving someone enough identification that they get a bit of hope. So, some of it strikes a chord with me, some of it doesn't.

The one thing I can subscribe to is the 12 steps. To me, the 12 steps (particularly 4 through 10) are essentially about one thing. Clearing the baggage, resentments, guilt, and all the stuff that is buried deep down and causing me discomfort. The stuff that I used alcohol to escape from. It's not about saddling yourself with a load of guilt over this that or the other, it's about being honest with yourself, and giving you a framework to really deal with it all and not hide from it. I've found that in sobriety, I've learned a hell of a lot about myself. I've been able to answer questions about myself or why I did certain things that I just couldn't get at while I was drinking.

The steps do read a bit funny, but you have to put the wording into context - They were worded by men in the 1930's, and of course their background and era have an effect on how they're worded. Seperate the idea & intention from the wording and they're just good tools for dealing with the issues underlying alcoholism and addiction.

So I don't see it as a "cult". It's just a set of tools. A meeting is one tool, the steps are another tool. Ask any one in AA who is happy and content in their life how they got there, the answer is just that they took action, and continue to take action. They use the tools.

One thing I have to hand to the guys who wrote the big book is that there is an open-ness in the interpretation of "God", and that openness is actually quite rare for the era in which it was written. You look at the history of anyone who feels they've found the answer, or have something to communicate to people and quite often they'll shape it to fit just their own beliefs (After all, what is more ego massaging than to feel like you alone have the answer and -suprise- it conforms to your exact set of beliefs - You are right!). In reading the Big Book with an open mind and without prejudice, time and time again I found that the message was "these are ideas, and tools. Shape them to fit your own belief system. Shape them so you can identify with them"

I don't think AA has the monopoly on effective ways to combat alcoholism. I think any system approached with honesty and a sincere desire to quit that does two main things can work for people - 1) Forces you to realise that if you take a drink, you're setting in motion a chain of events that turns things to sh*t and you just can't afford to do that, 2) Makes you look at the underlying issues that is causing you the discomfort and edginess that leads to wanting to put something in your system to dull that, and makes you take action on resolving those issues where possible.

AA is only part of the picture. It's a jumping off point. Some folks I know in AA, myself included have combined AA with getting some regular counselling/therapy. It's worked for me, and worked for a lot of people. Whatever it takes to not only stay sober, but lead a happy, content, and responsible life is fine by me!

Just as another point - I used Allen Carr's book (The only way to stop smoking permanently - The longer version of the EasyWay) to stop smoking four years ago, and that worked for me. I haven't smoked since. It's all part of understanding myself and what makes me tick. Allen Carr's book gave me insight I hadn't gotten anywhere else at that point, and AA gave me insight I hadn't gotten anywhere else at that point either.

frozenman

i have 4 best pals in the graveyard today. heavy drinkers all were, but its not the drink that has them there, its a little thing called "PRIDE".who does a high percentage of people cry out to in desperation and despair,"GOD" and then they say they dont believe in one,i am as far from a religous man as you could get but in order for me to continue to live i must believe in something greater than myself.fake it to make my friend and eventually you will see who guided you through the storm...............frozenman

colrow

I've seen people die too, and I'll go to any lengths to stay sober, and the fact that I'm alive today is due solely to AA and more importantly the people in AA. I believe in my Higher Power, I don't know who or what it is but its there and it works.

Just for Today that is

cue

Collie50 - Alternatives to AA - There used to be an organisation in Ireland called Women in Sobriety. Not sure if they are still around. What about checking in with your GP, or another professional (counsellor, psychiatrist etc) if the spiritual approach is not your cup of tea? I know plenty of people who stopped on their own and they are very happy. Try willpower or your own intelligence or take up a new hobby. It might work for you. I wish you the very best.
AA members - I read the orange papers, also AA;Cult or cure? It can be difficult to listen to outside criticism at times but history shows that AA has been greatly helped by its critics. If you are uncomfortable I suggest you have a chat with someone about it. Peace out.

Groovy Funkster

Hello, my name is none of your business, and I'm an alcoholic. I have been sober for the past eight years, and that's no thanks to the dangerous sect called AA.

Why, you ask, am I having a go at a free, voluntary, organization that aims to save lives from the scourge of alcoholism? What could be wrong about a group that allows alcoholics to talk confidentially about their problems, and work through a program to help stay sober?

I concede that aspects of AA philosophy make sense. Anonymity protects alcoholics from being stigmatized. The idea of a support group for people with a common problem is good. Moderate drinking is not an option for alcoholics: only total abstinence works.

Unfortunately, AA is more than an anonymous support group in favor of total abstinence: it is a sect that tells vulnerable people to choose a spiritual program or choose insanity.

Allow me to tell my story, or, as they say in AA, to “share my experience, strength and hope”. Eight years ago, after an alcohol-induced breakdown, I stopped drinking for the last time. As part of the treatment, I was asked to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. The advice, which I had no intention of following, was to attend 90 meetings in 90 days.

Some years earlier, I had been a zealous AA member. During that time, I turned into a voyeuristic, sanctimonious git. I loved listening to everyone's horror stories and I really loved telling my own. Strictly speaking, I wasn't telling horror stories, I was“sharing my experience, strength and hope.” To ensure I sounded experienced, strong, and hopeful, I concluded my horror stories with pious statements indicating that I was now on the righteous path. I avoided pubs because “if you keep going to the barbers you'll eventually get a haircut.” I survived weddings where there was a lot of booze on offer, because I managed to “let go, let God.” Of course, I could never say I was confident of not drinking again, because I had to take it “one day at a time.” Otherwise, I risked becoming complacent. It all felt very sincere and earnest at the time.

Eventually, I got bored of trying to live the program and fit my life story into the template imposed by AA clichés, so I drifted out of the group. Some time later, I started drinking again.

Like most alcoholics, I was a quivering wreck at the first AA meeting after my alcohol-induced breakdown. I just wanted to get better. AA requires that you accept that your life is unmanageable. That statement sounds very true if you have caused your life to fall apart by binging on alcohol. If my memory serves me correctly, my family was furious with me, I'd lost friendships, I became incompetent at my job, I was hallucinating, and I couldn't see any future.

The logical way out of this situation would be for me to choose to stop drinking and to start managing my life once again. That's not what AA required. AA wanted me to accept that only a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. As a victim of the disease of alcoholism, I was insane. After handing over control to a higher power, I would – with a lot of daily work – be sober and sane once more. I needed to be warned though, that if I failed to follow the spiritual program, I would either hit the bottle or become a dry drunk. I am proud to say I eventually chose the path of dry-drunkenness, and stopped coming back to the meetings.

I was told not to worry too much about the spiritual aspect of the program at the beginning. Apparently, it would come to me. My 'higher power' could be anything I liked so long as it wasn't me: it could be the AA group, my friends, my family, a television, or a turnip. I was understandably reluctant to hand my life over to the care of a turnip, regardless of how caring that turnip may be. I got mixed messages about how to become spiritual. Some people said: 'fake it until you make it.' Others felt it would be the inevitable result of me 'getting honest with myself'. (According to AA's big book, those who couldn't follow the program were 'constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves'.)

Friends and family were a great help but they could never be an agnostic's higher power. (I've now upgraded to atheist!) Much as I love them and need them, I wasn't going to turn my will and my life over to them, and they certainly wouldn't want that burden either. Their help was practical, not spiritual. They told me how my drinking hurt them. They comforted me when I was almost inconsolable. They encouraged me to take treatment. They threatened to withdraw financial support if I started drinking again. I'm extremely grateful.

A regular refrain at the beginning of meetings was: “The only requirement for membership is a sincere desire to give up alcohol.” This was a way of saying “You don't have to swallow the program whole right now. Give us time to work on you.” A regular refrain at the end of meetings was 'Keep coming back.' A prayer is said at every meeting. The twelfth step of the program is to recruit new people to the group. Sect-like behavior?

AA members do not instruct each other directly on how to think or behave. Instead, they share their experience as a means of dropping hints, and align their stories to the ones in the the big book or the other ones they heard in the rooms. At almost every meeting I attended, a former agnostic would tell the group how he used to be too arrogant to accept a power greater than himself, because he thought his **** was chocolate. (I felt like saying, you still do!) He claimed he was just like the guy in the chapter of the big book that was addressed to agnostics.

After a meeting I tried explaining to this guy that I was an agnostic who didn't have an especially high opinion of myself. I told him that I readily accepted that there were plenty of phenomena more powerful than me: for example, the universe and my boss. However, I couldn't see how or why either the universe or my boss should concern themselves with my drinking problem. He rather smugly said that he used to indulge in that kind of debating school talk, but it never got him anywhere. The best thing to do, apparently, was to simply surrender to God and stop asking questions. Let go, let God as they say.

According to AA, alcoholism is a disease. I think that's pure nonsense. Cancer is a disease. Alcohol dependency is an addiction. If you pick up a glass, you are responsible for that choice. If you get cancer, that's bad luck. If alcoholism is a disease, surely a medical program is preferable to a spiritual program? What other diseases are there for which there is one and only one spiritual treatment?

A big AA slogan is 'one day at a time.' Members need to live conscientiously to avoid drinking again, and to avoid falling foul of their character defects. Only by constantly surrendering to a higher power and following a program can an AA member avoid drunkenness or dry-drunkenness. If they try to solve problems by themselves, they are told that they will fail. AA wants alcoholics to be considering the program 24-7, and to be aware of their helplessness without the program. Which is exactly what any sect wants.

Maybe I don't get the AA program because I am an insane dry-drunk who is constitutionally incapable of being honest with myself. (How insulting and coercive is that message!) Still, for the past 8 years, I stayed off the sauce, and managed to be reasonably happy for much of that time. I have never sunk to the depths of depression I felt before I gave up drink. I go to pubs because I live in Ireland and I'm not a bloody hermit. I stopped chain-smoking four years ago. I am aware of my compulsive tendencies, and avoid any substances that risk becoming addictive. (On one occasion, a physiotherapist informed me that my refusal to take Nurofen for a back problem made the back problem worse. On the whole, I think my wariness about drugs is well-founded.) Recently, I've started overusing the Internet, which is a worry.

Some people claim AA's wacky program saved their lives. I cannot contradict their experience. Under the influence of a sect, they chose to thank a higher power for their decision not to drink. There is little or no scientific evidence to suggest that 12 step programs are any more effective than other programs at getting people to stop drinking. One study in the USA indicated that AA had the same success rate as no treatment at all: a miserable 5%. AA does no scientific research into its own methods and success rate. Just because brainwashing works for a small group of people, does not mean it should be prescribed to all. Bear that in mind before you instruct a loved one to attend meetings.

frozenman

HI,I DONT HAVE MY DICTIONARY WITH ME AND I WILL TRY AVOID THE BIG WORDS FOR NOW.I WENT THROUGH ALL YOU SAID MYSELF AND KEEP FINDING MYSELF BACK AT THE DOORS OF AA,AT LEAST I AM SURE IN THERE I WONT GET STABBED (AGAIN) OR GET INTO FIST FIGHTS, AND NOT FEEL LEFT OUT , AS I HAVE DONE ALL MY MISERABLE DRINKING LIFE.A GOOD FRIEND GAVE IT TO ME STRAIGHT WHEN I CAME BACK FOR THE 4TH TIME AND HE TOLD ME TO STOP PRETENDING I AM INTELLIGENT.IT WORKED.THATS WHY I HATED AA AND COULDN'T GET SOBER,I WAS A KNOW ALL AND THOUGHT I WAS MORE CLEVER THAN MOST IN THERE.I THINK ALCOHOL IS JUST AN OBSESSION AND NOT AN ADDICTION,JUST MY OPINION.YOU JUST SEEMED TO GET BORED TOO EASY AND ALWAYS LOOKING FOR ALTERNATIVE HIGHS.WHICH IN TURN LEAD BACK TO A DRINK.WOULD YOU LIVE WITH YOU????

Groovy Funkster

I am 8 years off the drink and will never drink again. I don't take it one day at a time. Instead, I made a lasting decision. AA doesn't respect that choice. It tells me I must be a dry drunk or constitutionally incapable of being honest with myself. (Talk about big words!) Those are the bullying tactics of a sect that does not want you to leave.

What makes you think I'm always looking for alternative? On the contrary, as I said, I'm cautious about taking anything that might provide a high or pain relief (For example, I refused nurofen when I had a bad back). I mentioned that I am overusing the internet, which is fair enough. I’m aware of my compulsive nature, which is a good thing.

As regards the reference to me being bored, yes I was bored with the AA clichés repeated at meetings. Those clichés were a substitute for thinking. Unlike your so-called friend, I value thinking.

The message your friend gave you was: "You're not intelligent. You just think you are. Stop thinking and surrender." Your so-called friend is a bully. Our existence on this planet is pointless if we are not allowed to think.

The reason why you kept drinking again was that you lifted your glass to your mouth and drank. That's not an intelligent action for someone 'obsessed' or addicted to alcohol. You know what you're like. Take responsibility for your own behavior. Intelligence helps.

I admit that some of the big words in my posting were unnecessary. I am still proud to use a full vocabulary to express thoughts freely. Unlike you, I don't have to check if my words are in agreement with the message of any big book.

frozenman

you just dont like taking advice and you want to do it all your own way,you are in a very lonley and exclusive club...keep coming back

colrow

wots the point of raving on about aa Let It Go rotflmao

Groovy Funkster

frozenman wrote: »

you just dont like taking advice and you want to do it all your own way,you are in a very lonley and exclusive club...keep coming back

Actually, I take advice all the time, from family, colleagues, and friends. Only today my dad gave out stink to me and I realized I was in the wrong.

I consider it a duty to challenge advice that makes no sense, for example, "fake it till you make it." Particularly if this bad advice is given to vulnerable people. I don't just say I don't like the advice, I say why. I notice you have not addressed any of the points I made about why I think AA advice is so bad. Instead you made your criticism personal.

If a friend of mine disagrees with advice I give him, I expect my friend to challenge me. That's what grown-ups do.

PS: Family and friends ensure I do not belong to a lonely exclusive club.
PPS: I'm never coming back!

Groovy Funkster

People need to know that there is recovery outside of AA. If you think the program is rubbish, you are not alone. People who are fighting alcoholism should be aware of this.

Groovy Funkster

colrow wrote: »

rotflmao

I had to look up the meaning of "rotflmao". I found a suitable definition: http://rotflmao.urbanup.com/366725

If you thought my post amused you, try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo&feature=related

Karen_*

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

I am 8 years off the drink and will never drink again. I don't take it one day at a time. Instead, I made a lasting decision. AA doesn't respect that choice. It tells me I must be a dry drunk or constitutionally incapable of being honest with myself. (Talk about big words!) Those are the bullying tactics of a sect that does not want you to leave.
.

Aa says that everyone who doesn't drink and is not in AA is a dry drunk does it? Why would it not want you to leave GF? What is this "sect" getting from you? It doesn't charge you anything for being a member so what then? It says that there are people who don't recover but you obviously have so how then are you 'constitutionally incapable of being honest with yourself? Get your facts right please.

As regards the reference to me being bored, yes I was bored with the AA clichés repeated at meetings. Those clichés were a substitute for thinking. Unlike your so-called friend, I value thinking.

The message your friend gave you was: "You're not intelligent. You just think you are. Stop thinking and surrender." Your so-called friend is a bully. Our existence on this planet is pointless if we are not allowed to think.

Aren't you great for getting sober all by yourself? Hats off to you. And please don't come here to sneer at people who do need the help. And suggest to them that they are sheep who can't think for themselves.

The reason why you kept drinking again was that you lifted your glass to your mouth and drank. That's not an intelligent action for someone 'obsessed' or addicted to alcohol. You know what you're like. Take responsibility for your own behavior. Intelligence helps.

Do you understand alcoholism at all? Intelligence helps.

I admit that some of the big words in my posting were unnecessary. I am still proud to use a full vocabulary to express thoughts freely. Unlike you, I don't have to check if my words are in agreement with the message of any big book

Its great that you have a huge vocabulary. A degree of cop on and you could be brilliant altogether!

Karen_*

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

Hello, my name is none of your business, and I'm an alcoholic. I have been sober for the past eight years, and that's no thanks to the dangerous sect called AA.
.

Dangerous sect! Its a support group Groovy Funkster. But to persuade us otherwise why don't you tell us all the terrible and dangerous things it did to you?

How interesting that you started out your sobriety in AA. And you reckon you would have just woke up one morning and did it all by yourself. Thing is though, you didn't. AA helped you.

Groovy Funkster

Karen: My facts are straight. See page 58 of the big book. The message is obey or fail.

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such infortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. " -- Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 58

I cannot and will not completely give myself to a simple program. Therefore, according to AA, I will not recover. Don't blame me, pity me: I'm either constitutionally dishonest (probably a birth defect) or I suffer grave mental or emotional disorders. What could be more sect-like than the word completely? It allows for no deviation even if you do regularly attend AA!

Groovy Funkster

Karen_* wrote: »

Aren't you great for getting sober all by yourself? Hats off to you. And please don't come here to sneer at people who do need the help. And suggest to them that they are sheep who can't think for themselves.

Yes the word sheep is strong and the word bully is strong, deliberately so. If you completely give yourself to a program, that's more sheep-like than human and the person instructing you to do so is a bully. The doctrine of a powerless person surrendering daily to a higher power is the opposite of the principle of an independent person taking personal responsibility. The former requires obedience: follow an instruction (and stop thinking you're so intelligent). The latter requires intelligence: weigh up the pros and cons of each action before acting.

The idea that a 'cunning, baffling, and powerful' alcohol (actually just a liquid) would outwit you and make you drink unless you completely follow a program, stops you from deciding 'I'm in charge of whether I drink or I don't.'

You'll notice that the shouting accusation of the guy I supposedly sneered at was "YOU JUST WANT IT YOUR WAY". He's right, I do. I am responsible for my actions. With regard to your sneering question 'Do you know anything about alcoholism?", well, I understand very fully that after taking one drink I'll want to continue. So I don't take that drink. Knowing what I'm like informed my decision. It was a tough decision, requiring courage, cop-on, and intelligence. No higher power was required and no higher power is getting the credit. I don't need to take it one day at a time, the decision is made. What's wrong with such a simple and effective outlook? Surely it's better than a culture of dependence, powerlessness, and obedience.

mazcon

That's wonderful that it works so well for you. For a lot of people, however, they find that trying to stay sober by strength of will alone is impossible for them. So they attend a fellowship where they receive support from others who understand what they are going through and how they struggle on a daily basis. This support helps them to stay sober a day at a time. Those days add up and become weeks and months and even years of sobriety. It works for them, so why knock it?

Groovy Funkster

Karen_* wrote: »

Dangerous sect! Its a support group Groovy Funkster. But to persuade us otherwise why don't you tell us all the terrible and dangerous things it did to you?

How interesting that you started out your sobriety in AA. And you reckon you would have just woke up one morning and did it all by yourself. Thing is though, you didn't. AA helped you.

Actually, I did get treatment in a hospital as well. AA is the only support group in town, so pretty much every alcoholic seeking help tries it out for a while. That does not mean every alcoholic gets help.

I don't take things 'one day at a time'. Instead I make a lasting decision not to drink. I don't ask a higher power to help me with my supposed powerlessness over alcohol. Instead, I choose not to drink forever more.

I'm posting here to provide other people with this alternative outlook. My intention is - believe it or not - constructive.

What harm did it do? Well my mind was messed up enough already without that dose of mumbo jumbo. If AA had their way I'd still be in those dreary rooms rambling on about how my daily contact with a non-existent power was keeping me sane one day at a time. In short, I would not have a independent life.

I survived AAs attempt to rob me of independence. And happily walked away even though that, in AAs view, made me either constitutionally incapable of being honest or mentally or emotionally defective.