Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

mazcon

Thanks to AA my dh survived alcohol's attempt to rob him of his life and we have a happy life today as a result. He made many a lasting decision to stop drinking and each of those attempts led him nearer to the abyss. AA was the only thing that consistently got him back from the edge and so far he has stayed that way. It may be mumbo jumbo to you (and to others I don't doubt) but it works for a lot of people from a variety of backgrounds and from a large range of intelligence levels.

Karen_*

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

I'm posting here to provide other people with this alternative outlook. My intention is - believe it or not - constructive.
.

I really think its great that you're still sober and I totally respect you doing it on your own. I'm in AA but I certainly don't consider you a dry drunk. My uncle did it all on his own without any treatment or AA. Personally I need the support. There ARE alcoholiics who've got sober and don't it without AA. Who cares how we do it as long as we do what works for us.

What harm did it do? Well my mind was messed up enough already without that dose of mumbo jumbo. If AA had their way I'd still be in those dreary rooms rambling on about how my daily contact with a non-existent power was keeping me sane one day at a time. In short, I would not have a independent life.

I survived AAs attempt to rob me of independence. And happily walked away even though that, in AAs view, made me either constitutionally incapable of being honest or mentally or emotionally defective.

I'm really conscious of not losing my independance. i know I need help and support but I won't be told how to think. I take out of AA what I need and I also take on board advice. But not all of the advice sits right with me and I discard what is not for me. Maybe I'm wrong to do that but while I'm an alcoholic that's not all I am. I can think for myself and the day I stop doing that then I may as well drink.

I'm sorry it wrecked your head more than it already did. I just thought that I needed to get sober and nothing and noone was going to stop me. I don't like some of the people in AA, sometimes the aulfellas going on and on drives me nuts. Its not logical to suggest that AA is the only way anyone can get sober either and some old timers would suggest that while you can get sober without AA that you can't be happy. What rubbish. I don't agree with everything either! I think for myself and I doubt I'm the only one. I'm doing this for me and not for AA or for anyone else and I'm not letting anyone wreck my head either.

Karen_*

mazcon wrote: »

That's wonderful that it works so well for you. For a lot of people, however, they find that trying to stay sober by strength of will alone is impossible for them. So they attend a fellowship where they receive support from others who understand what they are going through and how they struggle on a daily basis. This support helps them to stay sober a day at a time. Those days add up and become weeks and months and even years of sobriety. It works for them, so why knock it?

It works if you work it. If it was a sect and beleive me I'd know it it was, I would be gone. Or maybe not, I'd have stood on my head for three weeks and prayed to mickey mouse at the end of my drinking, such was my hell and need to get help to get sober.

Karen_*

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

Karen: My facts are straight. See page 58 of the big book. The message is obey or fail.

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such infortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. " -- Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 58

I cannot and will not completely give myself to a simple program. Therefore, according to AA, I will not recover. Don't blame me, pity me: I'm either constitutionally dishonest (probably a birth defect) or I suffer grave mental or emotional disorders. What could be more sect-like than the word completely? It allows for no deviation even if you do regularly attend AA!

It doesn't say anything about obeying. Its a suggested programme of recovery. You've proved it can be done without AA. Therefore the above passage is not entirely true. I wouldn't take it as gospel, it was only written by a man and not God almighty. It also starts off with rarely and not never. and to be honest GF i haven't seen very many people get off the drink without help of some sort. It happens but as the saying goes 'rarely'. Sure if we could do it ourselves then we wouldn't have a drink problem at all. I'd have been controlling myself all these years.

Karen_*

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

Yes the word sheep is strong and the word bully is strong, deliberately so. If you completely give yourself to a program, that's more sheep-like than human and the person instructing you to do so is a bully. The doctrine of a powerless person surrendering daily to a higher power is the opposite of the principle of an independent person taking personal responsibility. The former requires obedience: follow an instruction (and stop thinking you're so intelligent). The latter requires intelligence: weigh up the pros and cons of each action before acting.

I'll say it again, I am not sheep and I'm not obeying anyone. I just need the help. I'm not saying everyone does but some do. I do have a God and I'm proud of that fact, I didn't for so long. And I do beleive God is helping me. But it isn't for me to push God on anyone else. Sure the God most of us grew up with isn't a very appealing God at all!

The idea that a 'cunning, baffling, and powerful' alcohol (actually just a liquid) would outwit you and make you drink unless you completely follow a program, stops you from deciding 'I'm in charge of whether I drink or I don't.'

I don't beleive I was ever in charge of what I drank. If I was i wouldn't be an alcoholic. I really tried to stop but I couldn't. That's just me.

You'll notice that the shouting accusation of the guy I supposedly sneered at was "YOU JUST WANT IT YOUR WAY". He's right, I do. I am responsible for my actions. With regard to your sneering question 'Do you know anything about alcoholism?", well, I understand very fully that after taking one drink I'll want to continue. So I don't take that drink. Knowing what I'm like informed my decision. It was a tough decision, requiring courage, cop-on, and intelligence. No higher power was required and no higher power is getting the credit. I don't need to take it one day at a time, the decision is made. What's wrong with such a simple and effective outlook? Surely it's better than a culture of dependence, powerlessness, and obedience.

I apologise for sneering, I shouldn't have. Certainly you make very valid points and I agree with some of what you say. Also I'm not the expert on alcoholism. I don't think I'll ever really understand it fully. Well done on your courage, cop on and intelligence and I genuinly mean that. I have to say I didn't have any of the three when it came to drinking. There is no harm in a simple and effective outlook at all. I tried myself to do it the way your doing it. I didn't want to join AA at all! I tried it and hated it four years ago but in the end i needed the help. And so I decided to go back but on my own terms and certainly not as a sheep who would swallow any old rubbish.

Groovy Funkster

Karen,

I appreciate and respect the fact you are an independent thinker who does not swallow all of AAs dogma. I can tell you have a strong commitment to stay sober. We have very different outlooks about what is required.

I have problems with the many 'suggestions' put forward in AA. I don't think they're harmless guidelines that everyone feels free to take or leave. As far as I can remember, the passage I quoted was repeated at every meeting (I may be wrong). To me at least, it drummed the message home: only flawed people leave. I'm glad you don't believe that.

AA knows people think it is a sect. That's why it offers "suggestions", proposes "a God of your understanding", and states the "only requirement for membership is a sincere desire to give up drinking". It all sounds very open-minded. But is it?

- The suggestions are often proffered in the style my mother: "If you want to lose your job you can call in sick. It's entirely up to you." For example, AA members warned me not to attend a company night out in a pub because "You don't go to a barber's to have a picnic." The idea there was that mere sight of booze would inevitably lead me astray. The importance of socializing with colleagues was overlooked.
- The God of your understanding is a vehicle for your submission to the group and its doctrine. The one you choose doesn't matter. What matters is that you turn your will (independent thought) and your life (everything you do) over to the care of this God every single day. And what does this God want you to do: follow the program! What do you get if you do? A life beyond your wildest dreams.
- The only requirement for membership may be a sincere desire to give up alcohol, but living the program completely means completing the steps. And, as far as AA is concerned, you are only really qualified to recruit new members if you are "suggestible" enough to get to step 12.

I cannot drink in a controlled way and neither can you. If I applied willpower to attempt to drink moderately, I would fail. That does not mean I have no willpower. It means that I have an addiction, that I beat by choosing to abstain. I know from experience that alcoholism batters confidence. It led me to believe I was a pathetic creature with no will power. I learnt however that failure in the past did not inevitably lead to failure in the future. With support from the people around me, I regained confidence in my own willpower. That meant the decision not to drink was a lasting one.

Rather than rebuilding confidence in the alcoholic's willpower, AA says: "A God of your understanding will help you out of this, providing you follow the program." If, as I believe, there is no God, that's a very shaky foundation for staying sober. The 5% success rate in studies indicates that AA is not a whopping success, regardless of anecdotal evidence.

Karen_*

And less than 5% of alcoholics get sober at all! So its not like AA is brining the numbers down on recovery.

Your post makes perfect sense and is extremely helpful in my opinion. I've got loads of willpower but just not where my addictions are concerned. I'm well able to keep away from the cadburys creme eggs when I feel I really have to have one. I had the willpower to keep drinking and smoking when at the start I hated both and the way they made me feel.

I disagree with alot of your take on AA and that's just because I've got a different take on it. It had occured to me at times that there are similarities between AA and a sect! I've got the shiver down my spine at times but then at the end of the day it Is working for me and many others. There are no fee's, no leaders and it doesn't actually recruit. I looked them up as did most of the other members. And its when showing someone else the 12 steps that it is required that you've completed the 12 steps yourself, not for recruitment. I don't get anything out of it when another person joins so why would I be out recruiting. I'm not out on the streets offering free personality tests or gourmet lunches and neither are the other members.

I see where you're coming from and why you feel the way you feel and I'm in total agreement that there are other ways to get sober. But AA is not evil or dangerous or a sect. Certainly its not more dangerous than the mind bending physical and mental danger of alcoholism. It helps alot of people albeit its not for everyone.

colrow

Don't feed the Troll

Groovy Funkster

colrow wrote: »

Don't feed the Troll

Wikipedia defines a troll as follows:
"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online ..."

My posts are controversial, but they are relevant and on-topic. The title of the thread is "Alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous". I got sober outside of AA. My views are alternative to those of AA. How much more relevant can you get?

Celtic67

colrow wrote: »

Don't feed the Troll

To be fair doubt any troll here - I have found this a very balanced and helpful discussion so far

donieD

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

I got sober outside of AA. quote]

Good for you.I got sober inside of AA, thats good enough for me.

colrow

The AA Preamble

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

Bill W

Karen_* wrote: »

They don't force God down your throat because not everyone in AA beleives in God. But most people believe in a higher power and your God can be whatever you beleive yourself. Even if that God is just willpower of the love and support of friends. Theres alot more than just ourselves gets us through the bad times.

Thats true ,im a member and im agnostic,a good alky will always find a reason not to stop..lol

Groovy Funkster

Bill W wrote: »

Thats true ,im a member and im agnostic,a good alky will always find a reason not to stop..lol

If you're not sure about a higher power, how can you "thoroughly follow" the AA path and "completely" give yourself to the "simple program"? Did you attend different meetings to me? Did you pay attention to the regular reference to God in the steps, to the cliches people rattle off like catechism, and to the prayer that is said at every meeting?

You say "a good alky will always find a reason not to stop." That's true if the "good alky" considers the reason not to stop in isolation from the hundreds of reasons to stop. Here's a solution: stop being a "good alkie." Make a rational choice not to drink. Write down the pros and cons on a sheet of paper if necessary. If you really have the track record of a "good alky", the choice should be pretty obvious. No higher power required.


Accepting powerlessness is denying personal responsibility. Suppose you really are powerless over alcohol. Suppose the God you are on the fence about but who AA wants you to surrender to does not exist. How will you resist the temptation to drink, given that your willpower (according to AA) counts for nothing? Maybe the illusion of a higher power will sustain you. But why rely on a (potential) illusion?

As an agnostic attempting to follow the program you must accept that what the program puts forward as your only hope is potentially a false hope. It follows that that AA, at least potentially, is telling you lies.

If the group is your higher power, which is one of the options AA sneakily suggests to its members, how are you not a member of a cult? After all, you are asked to turn your "will" and your "life" to the care of a group. After handing that over, what's left of your personal autonomy?

Groovy Funkster

Karen_* wrote: »

They don't force God down your throat because not everyone in AA beleives in God. But most people believe in a higher power and your God can be whatever you beleive yourself. Even if that God is just willpower of the love and support of friends. Theres alot more than just ourselves gets us through the bad times.

You appear to provide two options for alternative higher powers to the traditional God: your own willpower, and the love and support of friends. (I presume the "of" was an "or".)

From AAs perspective, the higher power cannot be your own willpower. Logically speaking, your will power, as part of yourself, cannot be greater than yourself. AA is very much against the idea of personal willpower being used to stop drinking.

"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically non-existent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago.

We are without defense against the first drink." Big Book

I disagree entirely with the above quote. If you believe you're without defense, you have an excuse for all past and future benders. Addicts need to overcome that mentality of helplessness, take responsibility, and stop taking the substances they are addicted to.

God doesn't stop drinking on the alcoholic's behalf; the alcoholic makes that choice and should take the credit.

As for the love and support of friends, I believe in that, but why make it spiritual? My friends would think I was bonkers if I told them their love and support had become become my higher power and that I'd turned my will and my life over to the care of their love and support.

However loving and supportive they may be, they're not responsible for me choosing to drink or not to drink. I am.

colrow

OCD

cue

107 posts so far, mostly about how good or bad AA is and who has the best arguments. Wouldn't like to be in need of a little help here!
If this is the alternative, I'll stay in the pub.

Karen_*

Well it has turned into a debate that's for sure. Still haven't got any alternatives for AA suggested although some people are doing it for themselves and that seems to work for them. AA has helped me greatly and is still helping me at the moment although yes I do deserve some credit myself. Who knows what the future will bring. Cue loved your closing remark and if thats your attitude then do please stay in the pub but don't blame anyone here.

colrow

Karen_* wrote: »

Well it has turned into a debate that's for sure. Still haven't got any alternatives for AA suggested

Hi Karen,

Live and Let Live, I suppose is the motto here, I work away from home in different parts of the world, and I consider it a privilege that I am a member of AA, I'm assured of a warm welcome as a visitor at an AA meeting, and I thoroughly enjoy the freedom that AA has given me.

I'm home for a week, and been to 2 home meetings, and to catch up with my friends in AA is great, I was buzzing when I came home last night.

It works if you work it.

ps stop feeding that troll and it'll shrivel up and die

Groovy Funkster

colrow wrote: »

Hi Karen,

Live and Let Live, I suppose is the motto here, I work away from home in different parts of the world, and I consider it a privilege that I am a member of AA, I'm assured of a warm welcome as a visitor at an AA meeting, and I thoroughly enjoy the freedom that AA has given me.

I'm home for a week, and been to 2 home meetings, and to catch up with my friends in AA is great, I was buzzing when I came home last night.

It works if you work it.

ps stop feeding that troll and it'll shrivel up and die

Live and let live for people who agree with you. Live and let die for trolls with OCD (people who disagree with you). No apologies on my side for offering an alternative outlook to the AA one on a thread called "Alternatives to AA."

colrow

Denial

Groovy Funkster

colrow wrote: »

Denial

Denial of what exactly?

• Denial of the fact that I was a disaster when I drank? I accept that fact. I will never drink again.
• Rejection of the AA philosophy? I fully reject the philosophy. I use the word 'rejection' instead of 'denial' because the word 'denial' implies a refusal to accept a fact.

The big book presents opinions as facts:

• It is not a fact that alcoholism is a disease like cancer. (Most mainstream doctors call it an addiction rather than a disease.)
• It is not a fact that only a higher power can restore alcoholics to sanity. (Atheists like me find that statement silly and insulting.)

If you want to argue that these opinions are facts, please supply evidence, not anecdotes.

I haven't called you any names, but you've called me a troll with OCD in denial. Bullies resort to name-calling when they run out of arguments.

Doesn't AA warn against 'taking other people's moral inventory'? I can rattle off AA cliches as easily as you can. I prefer to make my own points in my own words because I have my own mind.

The next addiction you need to address is your addiction to AA cliches. One moment you say 'live and let live,' the next you say 'it works if you work it', and now your opponents are in 'denial'. I challenge you to address the points I made in this post in your own words. I will stop contributing to this thread after this post, so you can call me all the names in the world without fear of retaliation. I'd prefer though, if you made arguments backed up with facts.

I hope that people reading this thread realize that terrible things do not inevitably happen to those who reject the AA way. Get help from friends and family. Go to professionals.

I know professional help is not free, but most therapists respect your mental autonomy more tha AA. Remember most religious groups, be they big hierarchical cults like the Catholic Church or small leader-free cults like AA, offer their time freely in exchange for the hearts and minds of their flock.

I know, I know, the only requirement for membership is a sincere desire to stop drinking. But the only way to get truly sober is to follow a program that requires you surrender to a God or higher power. Choose AA's spiritual program or choose insanity. Great choice!

I anticipate an angry response to this post. I know you can belong to AA and the Catholic Church. I know neither organization sees itself as a manipulative cult. I know there are agnostics in AA (clinging desperately to whatever help may be available). I know that the preamble states that AA is not affiliated to any religious organization. Too much reassurance is never reassuring.

My main point is that AA is a religious (or 'spiritual') group with God (or a 'higher power') at its core. (Agnostics can subsitute the scary words outside of brackets with the less scary ones in brackets if it makes them feel better.) It's hard to deny that statement if you read the twelve steps in sequence and count the mentions of God.

AA seeks control of your mind during its free meetings. It wants you to surrender. colrow is a product of AA. I rest my case.

Karen_*

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

Live and let live for people who agree with you. Live and let die for trolls with OCD (people who disagree with you). No apologies on my side for offering an alternative outlook to the AA one on a thread called "Alternatives to AA."

GF you went to AA for help yourself and got sober within it. And now you're doing it yourself and thats great. I think when the question is asked 'are there any alternatives to AA' then what's meant is 'is there anywhere else to get help to stop drinking' as its help thats needed when swomeone can't do it on there own. You're just telling people how you stay sober alone and if they could do that they wouldn't be asking what all the options are.

Karen_*

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

AA seeks control of your mind during its free meetings. It wants you to surrender. colrow is a product of AA. I rest my case.

What are the alternatives to AA? Well there are treatment centres and addiction counselling. Can you add to that? If its being asked then its because the person asking cannot do it alone and is looking for help but doesn't want to go to AA.

Groovy Funkster

Karen_* wrote: »

What are the alternatives to AA? Well there are treatment centres and addiction counselling. Can you add to that? If its being asked then its because the person asking cannot do it alone and is looking for help but doesn't want to go to AA.

I said I wouldn't post again, but you asked me to. Allow me to quote from my last post:

"I hope that people reading this thread realize that terrible things do not inevitably happen to those who reject the AA way. Get help from friends and family. Go to professionals.

I know professional help is not free, but most therapists respect your mental autonomy more tha AA."

That covers the treatment centers and addiction counselling. I mentioned the vital importance of my friends and family several times before in previous posts.

The idea that I did it alone is simply not true.

However, an individual's attitude is as important as the support of others. The way we think has a huge influence on how we behave. I have offered an alternative attitude. I hope people found it helpful.

Bill W

Alcoholics have notoriously massive egos." I am God "syndrome..My higher power is any group i attend.I dont have issues with God you clearly have .Agnostic means i cannot prove or disprove his existence.The mind control thing you mentioned is laughable,you clearly have huge issues with authority Groovy.Did someone in AA tell you some home truths that you could not handle? if so ditto..Maybe you cannot handle the brutal honesty invloved in recovery and the steps..again i had problems there too, but thanks to AA and the good people who helped me, its not like that today .
If you have major issues with AA,authority, and God groovy then the problem is inside you not AA,ask any cousellor !

Groovy Funkster

Bill W wrote: »

Alcoholics have notoriously massive egos." I am God "syndrome..My higher power is any group i attend.I dont have issues with God you clearly have .Agnostic means i cannot prove or disprove his existence.The mind control thing you mentioned is laughable,you clearly have huge issues with authority Groovy.Did someone in AA tell you some home truths that you could not handle? if so ditto..Maybe you cannot handle the brutal honesty invloved in recovery and the steps..again i had problems there too, but thanks to AA and the good people who helped me, its not like that today .
If you have major issues with AA,authority, and God groovy then the problem is inside you not AA,ask any cousellor !

Ok, I'm having a bit of trouble living up to my promise to stop posting but the accusation of arrogance is far too hypocritical to let go.

• You arrogantly presume, without evidence, that someone in AA told me home truths I didn't like. Not true!
• You arrogantly presume, without evidence, that any counsellor would endorse AA. Not true! The last counsellor I attended thought the organization was full of it. Independent research shows a 5% success rate.
• You arrogantly imply, without evidence, that I think I'm God, and that that is a symptom of alcoholism. For your information, I recognize I'm very insignificant in the overall scheme of things and that I only know a minuscule fraction of what there is to know. I meet people who are wiser than me every day. My friends consider me to be very self-deprecating.
• You arrogantly state, without evidence, that I have a problem with authority. How? I am polite to the police at checkpoints. I respect my boss at work. I respect the fact that politicians - however much I disagree with them - have a mandate from their voters. But I reject the arrogant proposition that the only way to get sober is to surrender my will and my life to a God I don't believe in. (Yes, even if I am given the liberty of defining the God I don't believe in.)
• You arrogantly suggest, without evidence, that I'm incapable of being rigorously honest. What's honest about "fake it until you make it"? All dangerous cults perform character assassinations on apostates.
• You arrogantly imply you used to be like me but now you've seen the light. Just like the Born Again ex-atheist who used to harass me in university. You are not like me.
• You think the arguments about mind-control are laughable. But consider how AA believers respond to anyone who is not of the same mind as AA about alcoholism. Look at this thread: accusations of arrogance, God-complex, incapability of honesty, problems with authority, knowing nothing about alcoholism, just wanting it my way, OCD, troll-like behavior. Usually these accusations come without any evidence. First TM was showered with insults, now me. I've tried to address the arguments rather than target the people. If I have been insulting, for example when I used the words 'bully' and 'sheep' in a post, I've provided a reason.
• As for the impossibility of disproving God's existence, I refer you to the teapot argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqy32SFW-w
• Almost all of your accusations are very familiar. Other people have reported in the big book how they used to be arrogant alcoholics with God complexes and problems with authority until they learnt to get honest with themselves... In the rooms, I heard people rattle off the same stories, as if they were their own. (See my first post on this matter.) You're doing the same in this post. That's mind-control.
• You say the AA group is your higher power. If you follow the program to the letter, you are willing to hand your will and your life to the care of this group. What more could a cult possibly ask for?

Bill W

Your doing a great job of not getting involved ! Hypocricy..?
Having attended thousands of meetings,i have never heard anyone say ,"a councillor or treatment centre told me stay away..Not once.!!!!!
I have visited many centres in Britain and Ireland and ALL of them endorsed AA.....all of them..
I really hope you get help with the anger,resentment,bitterness within you.or you WILL drink again my friend...The problem is not within AA the problem is inside you groovy..good luck with the plot..

zero_nine

Its too easy to be anti-AA. If it helps people leave it be.

As AA people that insist that its the only way out, this is equally wrong and even if it undermines the AA philosophy you should be tolerant.

Bill W

The majority of people i know in AA have the attitude of whatever works for you.The litrature says the same thing..But when people tell lies, as some people do online about AA that says more about them than AA..They are trying to stop alcoholics getting the help they desperately need..What if one person believes the lies and propaganda and goes drinking and dies..?Can the anti AA s live with that possiblity..?
Because they are self righteous in the extreme,it seems they can ....