Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

zero_nine

Bill W wrote: »

The majority of people i know in AA have the attitude of whatever works for you.The litrature says the same thing..But when people tell lies, as some people do online about AA that says more about them than AA..They are trying to stop alcoholics getting the help they desperately need..What if one person believes the lies and propaganda and goes drinking and dies..?Can the anti AA s live with that possiblity..?
Because they are self righteous in the extreme,it seems they can ....

Agreed, absolutely. It is irresponsible to tell anyone who has gotten well through AA that it is bogus.I'be been to a meeting, and although it was not for me, it was certainly not bogus. People at the meeting would not have been there if it wasn't for AA, byt their own admission. The critisism comes from the fact that AA is very black and white. But it needs to be for the people who live that way. Grey areas for some people lead to craving.

Bill W

As i said the majority of people in AA say whatever works for you..You say you have been to "A" meeting zero,maybe that particular meeting did not suit you.I go to meetings i feel comfortable at..But a meeting is a meeting is the bottom line for me.Good luck with your sobreity my friend..whatever method you choose.

Groovy Funkster

Bill W wrote: »

The majority of people i know in AA have the attitude of whatever works for you.The litrature says the same thing..But when people tell lies, as some people do online about AA that says more about them than AA..They are trying to stop alcoholics getting the help they desperately need..What if one person believes the lies and propaganda and goes drinking and dies..?Can the anti AA s live with that possiblity..?
Because they are self righteous in the extreme,it seems they can ....

You obnoxiously accuse me of a very serious thing: driving an addict back to their addiction. As far as you are concerned, anyone who criticizes AA opposes recovery. That's like saying anyone who criticizes a particular book shop opposes reading. If an alcoholic wants to drink he or she will find an excuse to drink, whether that reason is a dreary, cliché-ridden, AA meeting, an acquaintance who offers him a drink, or an anti-AA post on boards.ie. It is extremely unfair to accuse the excuse-provider of being responsible for the alcoholic's decision. In none of my posts do I endorse drinking. Quite the opposite, I propose a philosophy of personal responsibility that has kept me sober for 8 years.

Groovy Funkster

Bill W wrote: »

Your doing a great job of not getting involved ! Hypocricy..?
Having attended thousands of meetings,i have never heard anyone say ,"a councillor or treatment centre told me stay away..Not once.!!!!!
I have visited many centres in Britain and Ireland and ALL of them endorsed AA.....all of them..
I really hope you get help with the anger,resentment,bitterness within you.or you WILL drink again my friend...The problem is not within AA the problem is inside you groovy..good luck with the plot..

I made a promise I didn’t keep because of unjustified and deeply personal insults. I guess that makes me a hypocrite. One point scored for you.
Of course my opposition to AA is not about point scoring, it's about the individual’s right to free expression, free will, and free thought. Life without drink ought not to be life without freedom. Freedom ought to include the freedom to propose a different way without being accused of constitutional dishonesty, anger, thinking you're God, being unable to face home truths, being destined to drink again... and so on...

You continually make extraordinary claims about me without evidence. One such claim is that I'll drink again. How can you possibly know that?

I only had to visit a treatment center once, eight years ago, and intend to keep it that way. The counselor I met was very clear in her distaste for AA. Do you keep visiting treatment centers because you keep slipping? If so, their endorsement of AA didn’t work for you on the several occasions they gave it. If not, I stand corrected. (Note that I don’t presume things about you, whereas you presume things about me.)

Groovy Funkster

zero_nine wrote: »

Its too easy to be anti-AA. If it helps people leave it be.

As AA people that insist that its the only way out, this is equally wrong and even if it undermines the AA philosophy you should be tolerant.

It's not at all easy to be ex-AA or anti-AA or even not-completely-following-the-AA-path.

You get called a hell of a lot of names.... for example constitutionally incapable of being honest and mentally disordered.

The notion that AA is the only way is central to AA philosophy. It sits very uncomfortably with "Live and let live". Here's the relevant passage from the big book.

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

The only tolerance there is a sickly condescending tolerance "Bless them, they're incapable of grasping it. Let's not judge."

The message is clear: follow our path or fail.

colrow

I told you not to feed the troll, It'll grow a new head soon

zero_nine

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

It's not at all easy to be ex-AA or anti-AA or even not-completely-following-the-AA-path.

You get called a hell of a lot of names.... for example constitutionally incapable of being honest and mentally disordered.

The notion that AA is the only way is central to AA philosophy. It sits very uncomfortably with "Live and let live". Here's the relevant passage from the big book.

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

The only tolerance there is a sickly condescending tolerance "Bless them, they're incapable of grasping it. Let's not judge."

The message is clear: follow our path or fail.

I am neither for nor against AA. My only assertion is that it is wholly irresponsible to critisise a program that is clearly of benefit to people.

The fact that some people don't disagree with its philosophy is irrelevent; they can do so silently as it does not affect their lives. The "big book" makes claims that other people will not recover if they do not follow the program. I admit that I will defend myself against that notion, and am a little uneasy with it. But at the same time I know it only that the authors' of the big book made this claim because they did believe that it was the only way out of the misery. I myself do not believe this notion, but respect the fact that many people gain reassurance from the idea that they are on the right path, so I have no right to critisise it.

This argument is similar to the argument about the Christians trying to convert people to "a better way". I am not religious, but will support anything that helps people. I cannot believe in religion, but I wish I could because scientifically and medically it has proven benefits.

I gather you do not approve of AA. But why critisise something if it helps that helps your fellow man.

colrow

zero_nine wrote: »

I am not religious, but will support anything that helps people. I cannot believe in religion, but I wish I could because scientifically and medically it has proven benefits.

I gather you do not approve of AA. But why critisise something if it helps that helps your fellow man.

I can't say that I am at all religious, in the sense that i follow a man made organised belief in a God for want of a better word, but I definitley follow a spiritual path, and have a higher power, and trying to practise the 12 steps makes mine and others life better. To me my understanding of cults, is that somewhere there is a heirerchy that is manipulating the masses for their own selfish ends. Where is that in AA ? AA is just ordinary people, there are no leaders.

zero_nine

colrow wrote: »

I can't say that I am at all religious, in the sense that i follow a man made organised belief in a God for want of a better word, but I definitley follow a spiritual path, and have a higher power, and trying to practise the 12 steps makes mine and others life better. To me my understanding of cults, is that somewhere there is a heirerchy that is manipulating the masses for their own selfish ends. Where is that in AA ? AA is just ordinary people, there are no leaders.

AA is fine. Its like a strip club, people outside look down on the people inside; but the people inside are glad they're there. LOL


EDIT: actually "look down on" is probably a fair statement but you get what I'm saying. I mean no offence!

Bill W

You are clearly very deluded and paronoid..I did not not accuse you of anything.This is not the first time you played the victim in this forum,you have accused collow and me of calling you names complete lies...!!! Give up your victimhood role,the problem is in you groovy not AA,DEAL with it.

I have never heard of a treatment centre that is anti AA..because there are none,your a lone voice in a bitter wilderness.....

Bill W

I visit treatment centres to help those who want help..Name a treatment centre that is anti AA..? Is that what has made you so bitter cos you could not get honest when you where there.?

Groovy Funkster

Bill W wrote: »

You are clearly very deluded and paronoid..I did not not accuse you of anything.This is not the first time you played the victim in this forum,you have accused collow and me of calling you names complete lies...!!! Give up your victimhood role,the problem is in you groovy not AA,DEAL with it.

I have never heard of a treatment centre that is anti AA..because there are none,your a lone voice in a bitter wilderness.....

Come on! You're portraying me as an angry, resentful, deluded, paranoid, fanatical, constitutionally dishonest, liar, who cannot face home truths and who will drink. I address the arguments, you attack me. Read your own posts. I am not playing the victim, I'm pointing out your attempt to bully me. I really hope you don't use this aggressive approach to people in treatment centers. Have you considered the possibility that people who disagree with your approach might not be craving a drink? They might just be - in a constitutionally honest way - disagreeing with your approach!

As for me being a lone voice - far from it. I cannot name the counsellor for confidentiality reasons, but I trust you don't think I'm lying on that. The day center I attended in Stillorgan didn't push AA at all. (It did allow meetings to take place there.) I remember a psychiatrist in that center stating his view that, contrary to AA doctrine, alcoholism was an addiction, not a disease. I know of at least two other people who are off the bottle without the help of AA and who think AA is full of rubbish (dry drunks in your book, no doubt). I got a private message praising my initial post to this board from a person who was off the bottle. A quick internet search for explicitly alternative treatment centers to AA shows plenty in the US.

Even if the whole world was in favor of or neutral about AA, that wouldn't make the bullying that you so epitomize right. Most people once believed the earth was flat. Many societies believe that witchdoctors' cures work. Empirical evidence shows a 5% success rate for AA.

Groovy Funkster

zero_nine wrote: »

I am neither for nor against AA. My only assertion is that it is wholly irresponsible to critisise a program that is clearly of benefit to people.

The fact that some people don't disagree with its philosophy is irrelevent; they can do so silently as it does not affect their lives. The "big book" makes claims that other people will not recover if they do not follow the program. I admit that I will defend myself against that notion, and am a little uneasy with it. But at the same time I know it only that the authors' of the big book made this claim because they did believe that it was the only way out of the misery. I myself do not believe this notion, but respect the fact that many people gain reassurance from the idea that they are on the right path, so I have no right to critisise it.

This argument is similar to the argument about the Christians trying to convert people to "a better way". I am not religious, but will support anything that helps people. I cannot believe in religion, but I wish I could because scientifically and medically it has proven benefits.

I gather you do not approve of AA. But why critisise something if it helps that helps your fellow man.

I reckon AA harms more people than it helps, mostly because I believe free thought is one of the main reasons for being alive. I also believe that surrendering your will and your life to a higher power (which is frequently a group) is the anthithesis of free thought.

How many people does AA help? Posters on this board may swear by it but don't be misled. Going to AA has a 5% success rate. Not going also has a 5% success rate. For a cure that in statistical terms provides a negligable or non-existent benefit, vulnerable people are asked (and, in the US, court-ordered!) to spend hours in dreary rooms getting their brains washed, and told they're disordered if they object to what they're hearing. Families and friends fear their loved ones are not serious about giving up if they reject AA. I think that's a scandal. You think I should be silent for the benefit of my fellow man.

Let's consider the disease model. If a medication was 5% effective for those who took it and no treatment at all was 5% effective also, it would not go on the market. Are spiritual cures to so-called spiritual diseases required to undergo less scrutiny than medical cures to medical diseases?

zero_nine

Instead of an "Alternative to AA" thread, can we not have an "Alternative to this discussion thread". All other topics are being ignored bar this one!

No matter how dreary AA is or otherwise, there is nothing as dreary or repetitive as this discussion.

Groovy Funkster

zero_nine wrote: »

Instead of an "Alternative to AA" thread, can we not have an "Alternative to this discussion thread". All other topics are being ignored bar this one!

No matter how dreary AA is or otherwise, there is nothing as dreary or repetitive as this discussion.

You're right. This discussion is tedious and I am repeating myself. I've used the 'dreary rooms' phrase almost as often as the AA-heads use their cliches. The argument with me and Bill W is going nowhere.

Your correct observation ensures you don't have to answer my rebuttal to your last post, but never mind. Many of my points have gone unanswered as people sought to silence me or to attack my character.

Bill W is upset by my posts and thinks they put lives at risk. I wish I could persuade him he is wrong but there is no chance of that.

Let's see if some other brave person is prepared to help with the question, what are the alternatives to the AA group or the AA mindset?

It's hard to mention an alternative without making a comparison, but note that many people contributing to this thread find any negative comment about AA irresponsible and life-endangering.

So if, unlike me, the next contributor focuses more on what's good about the alternative than what's bad about AA, we might bring the conversation forward. (It didn't help that my viewpoint is the polar opposite of the AA doctrine of surrender.)

I've given my own imperfect, and at times repetitive answers. I hope they were helpful to those who are seeking to give up booze and are not AA-inclined.

I'll stay out of the discussion unless someone slags me off or asks me back.

colrow

Groovy Funkster wrote: »

I'll stay out of the discussion unless someone slags me off or asks me back.

Praise The Lord

Bill W

Are you still here..? You said last week you were finished here and every day you have come back spewing anti AA rhetoric and lies and endagering peoples lives.Your lies about AA could actualy kill alcoholics ..who are seeking help.Your putting your massive ego before the suffering alcoholic.You name one Psychiatrist,and one treatment centre who ALLOW meetings.Thats a pathetic answer...........
I am angry with your self centerd opinions endangering lives..I am just glad i dont have to live with you,i feel sorry for those who do...

zero_nine

Bill W wrote: »

Are you still here..? You said last week you were finished here and every day you have come back spewing anti AA rhetoric and lies and endagering peoples lives.Your lies about AA could actualy kill alcoholics ..who are seeking help.Your putting your massive ego before the suffering alcoholic.You name one Psychiatrist,and one treatment centre who ALLOW meetings.Thats a pathetic answer...........
I am angry with your self centerd opinions endangering lives..I am just glad i dont have to live with you,i feel sorry for those who do...

Let it go. Its fine, you've made your point. By drawing it out you're merely drawing attention to this thread, and so if any of this thread is detrimental to peoples' health, drawing their attention to it adds to the risk of injury.

Bill W

Its important to put some balance on the anti AA fundamentalists views..It is a matter of life and death...It really is that serious......

iguana

From the research I've done I believe AA to do more harm than good. Yes it helps some people and I believe that some of the ways of helping that it has come up with are very good. The sponsor programme for example. I think that having someone who you can call at any time you need help, who understands how you are feeling, is a great support to anyone who needs it. However, they also put off lots of people, they have a 95% drop out rate, and their dominance means that it is very hard for the people they don't help to find alternatives. Though they are out there.

Karen I'd like to know where you got your figures for saying that less than 95% of alcohlics recover? That's nonsense. Medical studies show that between 5-10% of alcoholics recover without any intervention whatsoever. Every independent study ever done shows private counseling to have between 30-75% success rates. Controlled drinking programmes, though new, appear to have 60% success rates, though long-term successes are as of yet unknown. But do bear in mind that the AA figure of less than 5% is within one year, so later relapses are not taken into account in that figure.

There are alternatives but they aren't as common and are hard to find, especially in Ireland. To anyone looking I'd suggest talking to your GP first and if your GP is unsympathetic (as unfortunately some can be) go to another one. You can talk about seeing a counselor who is specifically trained to deal with alcohol abuse. In the UK the NHS has community alcohol teams in each area, which are GP referral and have a range of treatment options, so anyone reading this from the UK should certainly follow that option, but it can take months to be seen.

You can look online for AA alternative groups like Rational Recovery and Smart Recovery. I don't believe either has a presence in Ireland, but they could possibly have advice if you contact them.

Some people have said that books like Alan Carr's or a lesser known book, Phoenix in a Bottle have been very helpful.

There are lots of online support groups and counselors.
http://www.brighteyecounselling.co.uk/
http://www.addictioninfo.org/
http://www.habitdoc.com/
http://www.addictionsearch.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Reading this thread however has made my worries about the AA seem massively underestimated. I can't believe the wall against which anyone who has either found the AA not for them have come up against. This thread was started by somebody seeking alternatives, but appears to have been bombarded with posts about how great the AA is and how anybody who it didn't work for is a troll/lonely/angry/deluded. If the AA worked for you and you are getting better, that's great. It really is very wonderful, but you are in the minority and it's more than ok for people to have problems with it and seek alternatives. Or even better, to have found another way to have dealt with their drinking, and succeeded.

What's most worrying is the fact the those who are attacking those who have problems with the AA's philosophy have demonstrated such little understanding of their actual philosophy. Barbs at the spouses of alcoholics, telling them that they "don't have a clue about being an addict." When the AA classifies the spouses and close family members of alcoholics as also having the same diseases, but a worse case of it in many instances. Al-anon members are also 12 steppers, doing the exact same 12 steps and the exact same 12 traditions.

Dave!

Let's keep it friendly, folks It's alright to debate the value of AA and the alternatives, but remember people are posting their personal experiences about things that may have seriously damages their lives and their families'.

We're all friends here !

Karen_*

Yeah Dave I think this discussion has the potential to hurt people if it hasn't already. Probably best if we stick to the topic and just outline the alternatives. Even though AA is working for me its important that someone who does not want to go to AA gets help if they need and want it. And similarly they shouldn't be frightened off AA if they would like to try it. The most important people are the still active alcoholics and not the ones in recovery or people with experiences of alcoholism although they themselves don't have it.

geronimofinch

Well, I've been off the sauce for a good couple of months now and have just returned from a two week holiday - where the temptation of drinking was pretty strong toward the end of the first week, however, I stuck it out - and now feel that I can remain abstinent for the remainder of my life. I have tried AA before without much success. The religious aspect in itself wasn't that particularly off-putting, however, I felt the demand placed on me by the majority of members to 'get as many meetings in as possible or you'll be in trouble' to be the major stumbling point. There was something rather unsettling about that piece of advice.

Then I found Rational Recovery. Quite simple really - some would say perhaps too simple. Firstly, you'll go through a Powerpoint presentation entitled 'Bullets to the Beast' thingy or something to that effect on the RR website (http://www.rational.org/html_bullets/Bullet5.html). In essence, it attempts to separate the person (you) from the beast brain (it) and lays a foundation for the ambivalence that people who desire to stop drinking suffer from. "Yeah, I want to stop drinking" while on the other hand another voice is telling them "stop drinking? Are you mad?".
There are also 2 books which I've read on the matter - Rational Recovery and The Small Book. Both fortify the argument for the RR approach over the AA approach (as you would expect) and I must say I've found it quite enlightening. Where the AA Big Book and their abundance of rules, steps and regulations seem too archaic and cumbersome, the RR system seems, well, more rational I suppose.

It has certainly helped me to gain a clearer understanding of what exactly goes on inside my head and I imagine it can help a lot of other people out there who aren't too keen on the whole AA thing.

No harm in trying, eh?

paddyboy23

i went through 15yrs of hell with drink i went to aa and i just taut at 4o i was a bit young for it but i would never knock it some very clever witty people there im an alcoholic and im proud of it and im proud to be dry 4years il never forget that hell and il never go back to it and i think it dont matter where you go you have to want to give up if there as much as a grain of sand of doubt in your mind that will grow and grow ive seen men die in the next bed to me with drink a little advice its your choice

Aard

I've heard that AA has a 4% success rate: 96% of people who attend AA die drunk.


The thing to remember though is that AA is not for everybody, and not everybody that comes into AA is an alcoholic. Many are sent by their families, doctors or a judge. It's obvious, and sounds stupid, but AA works for those that the programme is for. The programme isn't for everybody in the rooms.


As for the religious thing, yes, in Ireland, AA is religious. There are Our Fathers at nearly every meeting. This is peculiar to Ireland though. I know one person who tried to change it, proposing the meeting be secular, and it was shot down. The programme in Ireland, in my experience, is generally poor. Abroad it is different. But back to the religious side: the word "god" is avoided by many, and instead "higher power" is used. Your higher power can be anything - one man said his higher power was the 46A that allowed him not have to walk past his local. Others say that "GOD" stands for "group of drunks", and their higher power is the meeting itself. One of AA's mottos is "take what you like and leave the rest". If you think it's getting too religious, then forget about it. But, then again, if you find yourself disagreeing with a lot of what they say, then AA probably isn't for you.

colrow

Aard wrote: »

As for the religious thing, yes, in Ireland, AA is religious. There are Our Fathers at nearly every meeting. This is peculiar to Ireland though. I know one person who tried to change it, proposing the meeting be secular, and it was shot down. The programme in Ireland, in my experience, is generally poor. Abroad it is different. .

Yeah that gets to me a bit, especially when you consider the preamble "AA is not allied with any sect, or religion"

So I stay silent during the our father, and join in with the Serenity Prayer.

I'm working away a lot in the Uk and abroad, and finding an AA meeting is essential to me , to maintain my sanity and sobriety, and I've also made many new and interesting friends.

Karen_*

I'm not mad about the our father either. I beleive in a God of my understanding but God has very little to do with holy marys etc for me. Its the creator of the universe to me and my belief that we are not alone. Its quite important to me for my own reasons not to have beads and crosses and resemblance to the kind of religion I grew up in (catholic). I think God is very misunderstood but then each to their own.

And I defo agree AA is not for everyone. How could it be when we are all so different?

Its really important to let people know that yes there is ways to get sober and they can do it and AA is not their only hope. I know that for a couple of years I really despaired because I tried AA and hated it and yet I thought that was my only option. I felt very trapped. I do go now and its working for me but I can only speak for myself.

colrow

Yeah I remeber the old days, when I first went, all those strange people, saying "if you want what we have and are willing to go to any lenghts to get it" I thought they were all raving, and I couldn't see anything they had that I wanted, except for a business, nice car, loads of money etc etc, things have changed now AA has given me peace of mind, a safe haven, oh and a small
farm, money, nice car, freedom from being a slave to alcohol,.......... and all I had to do was ...keep coming back.......not pick up the first drink.....share all the crap thats was on my mind....and to top it all I Love going to the meetings, I allways come away feeling good, there might be ****e going on in my life and there usually is something, but I can deal with it today, instead of sticking my head in the sand.

Easy Does It

martin0519

There is an alternative face to face meeting in Dublin. It is held Tuesday at 6:30 pm in the Dublin Central Mission on Lower Abbey Street.

This meeting follows the LifeRing philosophy of Sobriety, Secularity, Self-Help (see. Unhooked.com)

This meeting and one other at St Patrick's Hospital offer a choice of recovery techniques. It is a group that some may find helpful.

davidg1971

NonDrinkersClub wrote: »

Yeah - pretty much I don't wouldn't like the forum turning into a rehab spot either

That said, I think any AA member who has something positive to contribute is more than welcome to post here.

I didn't realise that the AA is a bit on the religious side?

Hi,I joined AA 4 months ago,the religous side helps but it is not the key.The key is listening,it definately works!Haven't touched drink since i joined,was a binge drinker.All walks of life enter the rooms and all have one thing in common-alcohol.People are very welcoming in the rooms.