Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

martin0519

There are LifeRing secular recovery meetings in Dublin. On 19th July a 4th meeting will start in St John of God Hospital at 7:30 pm. On 4 August a 5th meeting starts at the Dublin Central Mission at 8 pm. LifeRing is spreading to Belfast in September.

With its secular approach and meetings in place, it offers a clear choice and alternative to persons in recovery.

dttnch

martin0519 wrote: »

There are LifeRing secular recovery meetings in Dublin. On 19th July a 4th meeting will start in St John of God Hospital at 7:30 pm. On 4 August a 5th meeting starts at the Dublin Central Mission at 8 pm. LifeRing is spreading to Belfast in September.

With its secular approach and meetings in place, it offers a clear choice and alternative to persons in recovery.

It's really great news that LifeRing has finally come to Ireland and is actually expanding. Unfortunately it's only in the big smoke as of yet. Guess I might have to consider moving a little closer.

This will be a good alternative to the AA approach for the people who need it, that is not just because of it's secular approach either.

If AA is not working for some or if you just don't feel comfortable in an AA meeting or the 12 steps at least now you will have a choice.

No-one is saying one is better than the other. JUST DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU!!!

martin0519

You mentioned that LifeRing was only in Dublin. See the website www.liferingireland.org. A new meeting was just announced for Northern Ireland.

There are also two new meetings in Dublin according to the website.
This looks like a viable alternative to 12 step groups.

Elfay

Listen, I've been around AA for 29 years, I grew up in America; I went to treatment in Minnesota and did the whole 28 day thing and then 2 years of half-way houses and aftercare. I then went on to work in treatment centers after I finished university for 5 years as a counselor.
I've lived in 4 different countries and about 14 different cities
No one...in all that time...has ever MADE me think or feel anything about GOD in a religious way.
No one has ever asked me to be anything other than my best self; don't drink, work hard and simply keep my mind open to what others are saying.
This is how AA works, this is how life in general works: Some people and situations are really helpful...some are ****e....this is life.
If you went to an AA meeting you didn't like; find another one!? If you went to a meeting you did like; be a part of keeping it that way.
My experience with people who only find problems with AA in general, is that they didn't go much.
AA was not founded in Minnesota, nor does it cost any money. But the well known "Minnesota Model" of treatment for alcoholism and drug addiction, was indeed started there. Treatment and AA are two very different things.
If you are giving anyone money to stay sober (not GET sober mind you, that can often take a hospital or Tx center stay) but STAY sober and live a life you're proud of, you're being taken advantage of.
I am smart, incisive and cynical, most alcoholics are. Do you honestly think AA would have lasted this long all around the world if it was actually just a bunch of religious bull****!?
Dublin is full of meetings; some I can take and some I can't. For example; I'm not catholic and the whole lords prayer thing that's babbled at the end of meetings here drives me nuts. But I learned a long time ago; take what you need and leave the rest.
The ironic thing is; AA IS actually for everyone, but you have to go and stick around and make it the kind of meeting that works for you - because the truth is you're not unique and a lot of people will be incredibly glad there's a meeting like that for them to go to as well.
In fact, I would love to start a 7-up meeting here in Dublin. If anyone is interested, please let me know. A 7-up meeting is for people with 7 years or more sobriety who would like a format that is focused on the day to day issues of real current life. That means; No drunkalogues, no focusing on the past, no wallowing and no excuses.
I did not get sober to have a ****ty life; but I did get sober to have a real life, and sometimes that's ****ty. I know I'm not alone in that.
El

martin0519

The message posted by Elfay is interesting. Many people find that AA does not suit them. In the US there are many choices available. Smart Recovery, Rational Recovery and LifeRing are but some. Even within AA there are "Freethinker" groups. Look them up on the net.

When people are given alternatives to choose from, they tend to choose what works for them. Studies tend to show this. (citations omitted).

If AA works for a person, they should definitely stick with it. However, if it does not work, they can choose what is best for them.

M

Carlos59

AA does not claim to be the only way to getting sober. AA does not demand or instruct any agenda. All AA steps are suggested. AA is not about alcohol as alcohol is only a symptom of the drunks problem. The practicing alcoholic is only treating his disease with alcohol because it give him or her temporary relief from whats wrong why them. Many post on here refer to hard or problem drinkers. A real alcoholic is not in that class of drinkers. Please..no finger wagging or defensive attitude that I say this, but determination prior to investigation is not fair to AA nor the person that makes statements about AA before they know the entire circumstances of the program. When someone new comes to AA and ask what is going on and how does it work, I tell them there's good news and bad news, the good being that they never have to take another drink in their life, the bad being that alcohol is not their problem. I would like to share here but if its not a good idea as a consensus of the posters here then I will not post here...
I'll be back if you dont run me off...LOL

Carlos59

I have no problem with any other program....I was at death's door and AA works for me. The thing I call God? is in no way the traditional way God is taught in churches....I think when man puts black ink on the white page there will be mistakes, exaggerations, self serving statements and worse. That's just me though and I don't impose my beliefs on anyone and respect they're opinions.

Carlos59

I see nothing wrong with any program that works for a person....getting sober and living and not just existing is whats important..not AA or Smart Recovery of whatever. If it works for you don't fix it.....

Carlos59

Carlos59 wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with any program that works for a person....getting sober and living and not just existing is whats important..not AA or Smart Recovery of whatever. If it works for you don't fix it.....

I have never saw anyone come to AA because they thought they had a problem with alcohol. I'm sure they are out there but in 32 yrs I haven't seen one yet. I came to AA because something with no arms or legs had almost killed me and was fixing to finish the job, took my family away, took my business away and left me with nothing. I could not live with alcohol nor could I live without it. Now I live a happy productive life and am raising my youngest daughter. My problem was/is me.

Carlos59

collie50 wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for the explanation but I’m not sure if you read the link, it’s nothing to do with advertising and tries to move away from the whole AA thing. If people are to move away for the AA scenario they could perhaps be looking at alternatives: for example your excellent site of nondrinkersclub which has the correct idea that alcohol should not be an issue to having fun. I have never had serious trouble with alcohol but simply don’t like the affects of it. I don’t want to sit around all evening talking about how bad it is. The AA setup is that alcohol is the root of all problems which I believe is very negative.. However I do acknowledge that you did not wish for this forum to become a rehab spot as stated in my earlier post. So anyway, unfortunately it appears there is no AA alternative in Ireland, therefore I believe you may get or have many members who are or who have been in AA. Are they welcome?

Apologies for putting the thread in this spot as I believe you are doing very good work but to start up an AA forum would simply be a worlog of drink stories which I don’t think anyone here would want to read, especially not me.

So I think I’ll can leave it at that and keep up the good work.

AA has little to nothing to do with alcohol. Its stated in the Big Book of AA that alcohol is but a symptom of the drinkers problem. Its a program of suggestions, no bosses, no rules, no demands and no pressure, no dues, no fees. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Carlos59

I don't post here to defend AA. I wish all well and will help anyone that I can with a drinking problem but only in telling them of what it was like, what happened and what its like now. AA claims no patent on sobriety. I drank heavily from age 15 until age 55. I could not stop. If I did not drink for weeks or months I was miserable and had rather be drunk. Thur AA and God as I choose to understand God I got sober and happy and do not want alcohol. God is not required in AA. Only a suggestion of a power greater than yourself and that could be a goat if you wish or nothing greater than yourself if you wish. AA promotes (with in meetings as literature only) the help and association of doctors, physicarist and religious bodies and denounces no other program for recovery. These are facts.

Carlos59

Carlos59 wrote: »

I don't post here to defend AA. I wish all well and will help anyone that I can with a drinking problem but only in telling them of what it was like, what happened and what its like now. AA claims no patent on sobriety. I drank heavily from age 15 until age 55. I could not stop. If I did not drink for weeks or months I was miserable and had rather be drunk. Thur AA and God as I choose to understand God I got sober and happy and do not want alcohol. God is not required in AA. Only a suggestion of a power greater than yourself and that could be a goat if you wish or nothing greater than yourself if you wish. AA promotes (with in meetings as literature only) the help and association of doctors, physicarist and religious bodies and denounces no other program for recovery. These are facts.

Whats heartbreaking though is seeing people come into AA, refuse to face their problems and try to change the program and people to fit their idea of what it should be and die drunk. You take a real alcoholic thats desperate to stop, like me, and he or she has a chance at life and freedom from many things, not only alcohol.

24 Broken Amps

hey iv recently giving up alcohol 4 months now and i found this on boards the other day its a new sober Dance night starting in Dublin, i think what alot of people need, is to go somewhere on the weekend where they can socialise, with other people who are nt drinking, check this link looks class, www.facebook.com/sobersaturdays

CDfm

I dont think you can knock anything that works for people

Its a bit disingenuous to suggest that anyone who goes to any type of substance abuse support group for any other reason than they experienced substance abuse problems and if its AA then its alcohol abuse or addiction.

There is no other reason to go.

goingpostal

Karen_* wrote: »

They don't force God down your throat because not everyone in AA beleives in God. But most people believe in a higher power and your God can be whatever you beleive yourself. Even if that God is just willpower of the love and support of friends. Theres alot more than just ourselves gets us through the bad times.

Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of GOD AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM
Step 5: Admitted to GOD, to ourselves and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Step 6: Were entirely ready to have GOD remove our defects of character.
Step 7: Humbly asked HIM to remove our shortcomings.
Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with GOD AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM, praying only for knowledge of HIS will for us and the power to carry that out.

Seems to me that AA is pretty specific about what GOD is, what HE will do for you, and how you are supposed to communicate with HIM!!! AA-zombies will always tell you that step two allows you to believe anything you want, as if steps 3, 5,6,7,and 11 didn't exist. Bill Wilson, AA's patron saint and god-guided founder, didn't think it was possible to be an atheist, you only thought you were an atheist, and that you were ignoring the evidence for god which was inside of you because "inside every man, woman and child is the fundamental idea of god". That quote is from AA's big book of BS.

Aard

I come across a lot of people who are bitter about AA because of the "God" thing. But for every one of them, I meet two atheists who have managed to stop drinking as a result of following the steps. Go figure.

goingpostal

Aard wrote: »

I come across a lot of people who are bitter about AA because of the "God" thing. But for every one of them, I meet two atheists who have managed to stop drinking as a result of following the steps. Go figure.

You must meet an awful lot of atheists so. Would you mind illustrating exactly how an atheist (someone who disbelieves in god) works the steps without a belief in god as Bill Wilson understood Him?

Aard

Because it's not God "as Bill W.'s understands him". Atheists generally don't believe in a god as a creator. Also, atheist is often a word used for "irreligious".


Also, "god" can mean almost anything. I've heard of a guy who says that his god is the 46a bus, as in the beginning it helped him pass the pub without going in. Others joke that "god" means "Group Of Drunks". It's not a religious god (though it can be, of course).


Anyway, I'm not trying to convert you to AA. If it doesn't work for you; fine. I just wanted to point out that not all atheists think that way. Fwiw, also, I'm not in AA.

goingpostal

Because it's not God "as Bill W.'s understands him". Atheists generally don't believe in a god as a creator. Also, atheist is often a word used for "irreligious".

Atheism is defined as the lack of belief in god or gods. That is all the word means. The god of steps 3,5,6,7,11 is a very specific god who will accomplish very specific tasks, according to the steps of AA.

Also, "god" can mean almost anything.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
Alice in Wonderland, and Alice Through the Looking Glass, Lewis Carroll

I've heard of a guy who says that his god is the 46a bus, as in the beginning it helped him pass the pub without going in.

How exactly is a 46a bus going to restore this gentleman to sanity, take care of his will and his life, listen to the exact nature of his wrongs, remove his shortcomings, and how exactly is this gentleman going to establish conscious contact with a doubledecker bus in order to receive his work orders and the voltage to carry them out?

Others joke that "god" means "Group Of Drunks". It's not a religious god (though it can be, of course).

This is a standard cult technique, aimed at getting the newbie to surrender their ability to think independently over to groupthink.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convert you to AA.

If it doesn't work for you

It doesn't work for most people, 95% of newcomers drop out within the first twelve months.

; fine. I just wanted to point out that not all atheists think that way.

You seem to know an awful lot about how atheists think.

This was and is the ultimate aim of William G. Wilsons quack medicine:
From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 108-109.

In other words, no matter what you think or believe when you join our crazy religion, you will be assimilated! You will learn to keep coming back to endless dreary meetings! You will learn to be grateful for the lousy, cheap coffee and the moldy, soggy biscuits! You will learn to enjoy listening to some loser boasting about how he has been "sober" for the last thirty years! You will learn to enjoy hearing his exaggerated, embellished drinking stories for the umpteenth time! You will learn to turn a blind eye when a queue of aging, oleaginous lotharios forms whenever a pretty young vulnerable female newcomer arrives!

And if you refuse to sacrifice your ability to think critically and independently:
Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [suggested or you will die] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles[his refusal to do what Bill Wilson tells him].
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

CDfm

I don't know but it is an academic debate on atheism vs theism that is often covered elsewhere.

Maybe the idea is that there is something more powerful than the addiction and the technique works.

Aard

@goingpostal:

I'm not going to argue with you any more. If it doesn't work for you, leave it. You have a chip on your shoulder, but that's no reason to bad-mouth something that could save the life of somebody reading this thread.

techlady4160

Higher Power is just another form of magical thinking which in turn is a sign of an immature mind.

techlady4160

AA doesn't save lives. Not one ounce of scientific proof that it does. Just as many people claim that going back to church, their significant other, their children, or Scientology, saved them from their addiction. I wouldn't recommend any of those things to someone who wants to end their addiction.

Aard

What's your gripe, techlady4160? Either AA didn't work for you, or it didn't work for somebody close to you.

CDfm

goingpostal wrote: »

It doesn't work for most people, 95% of newcomers drop out within the first twelve months..

techlady4160 wrote: »

AA doesn't save lives. Not one ounce of scientific proof that it does. Just as many people claim that going back to church, their significant other, their children, or Scientology, saved them from their addiction..

If it provides an alternative for 5% of addicts -is that a bad thing.

Funnily enough, Techlady, Jung postulated that a spiritual belief and either of those methods is not a bad thing.Which possibly coincides with church, family scientology etc. So if your other methods bring recovery up to 30% -surely that cant be bad either.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=q4YolRdyMg4C&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=jung+%26+addiction+%26+god+belief&source=bl&ots=BgmnSspr8p&sig=jSkgP0XrY3pHSQG8kJNP75RLFBA&hl=en&ei=UKfdTOr3K4S3hAf9n7CbDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false

I wouldn't recommend any of those things to someone who wants to end their addiction

So why would you not recommend these things for coping with addiction -why not ??

So techlady as this is a thread about alternatives what recommendations do you have ??

finnigan

techlady4160 wrote: »

AA doesn't save lives. Not one ounce of scientific proof that it does. Just as many people claim that going back to church, their significant other, their children, or Scientology, saved them from their addiction. I wouldn't recommend any of those things to someone who wants to end their addiction.

you seem to be against an awful lot of things (AA included) that have and will continue to help many people beat their addictions.
i,m just curious, what would you recommend if not any of the above?

mathepac

techlady4160 wrote: »

AA doesn't save lives. ...

I couldn't argue with your assertion. It's shocking at times how many people see attendance at AA meetings as a silver bullet that guarantees a trouble-free life.

AA, psychotherapy, counselling or any other intervention can only succeed to the extent that the member / participant / client / subject wants it to. Unsurprisingly, if a participant in an AA progamme "fails", the fault lies entirely with AA, its founders, philosophy, ethos, etc.

Hopefully the AA alternatives in this thread will survive at least as long as AA has, help at least as many people and record fewer "failures".

CDfm

mathepac wrote: »

I couldn't argue with your assertion. It's shocking at times how many people see attendance at AA meetings as a silver bullet that guarantees a trouble-free life.

AA, psychotherapy, counselling or any other intervention can only succeed to the extent that the member / participant / client / subject wants it to. Unsurprisingly, if a participant in an AA progamme "fails", the fault lies entirely with AA, its founders, philosophy, ethos, etc.

Hopefully the AA alternatives in this thread will survive at least as long as AA has, help at least as many people and record fewer "failures".

I think the thread has got sidetracked on a politic type debate over a belief in god when it really should be exploring the methods that work.

Some people give it up on their own and others have willpower but if a person has an addiction and needs help what are they to do.

Here is an interview with John Waters on the question.

Writer reveals bridge over troubled Waters

John Waters has not been to AA in 18 months and he may not go back, writes Barry Egan


By Barry Egan

Sunday November 18 2007

Richard Harris used to quip he had formed a new group called Alcoholics-Unanimous. If you don't feel like a drink, you ring another member and he comes over to twist your arm. The Irish Times columnist and author John Waters has not been to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in over 18 months.
In an interview for today's Sunday Independent LIFE magazine, Waters says he has gone through longish spells when he doesn't attend and then goes back again.
"This time it has gone on longer than usual," he told me.
"And I don't know whether I'm going to go back or not," he adds.
And the term 'alcoholic' does not sit well with him.
He says: "I'm not an alcoholic at all. I don't think of myself in those terms.
"It's like if you say you're religious, you're forever on your knees, bating your breast. And if you say you're an alcoholic it means you have a bottle wrapped in brown paper in your pocket. So these terms are not helpful. They are actually quite unproductive."
The last time John had a drink was July 29, 1990. At 3pm. A glass of white wine with friends in Balbriggan.
The writer remembers one evening "a fairly well-known writer" was in Waters' house when he got home from work.
Waters' girlfriend at the time had, he says, some anxieties about his drinking and this character, remembers Waters, "was kind of well-known for his own voyage in this particular area".
He kept following Waters around the house and trying to engage him in conversation about drink.
At one point, he locked himself in the bathroom to get away from him. Then he suggested they go for a drink.
"So I went out with him but I refused to drink, because he'd be able to see me in laboratory conditions," Waters laughs.
"He brought me to my first AA meeting. I found it interesting at the time, but it didn't really stick, and I went back drinking.
"A couple of years later I decided on my own that I had to stop but I hadn't scooped up enough of the AA picture to make me feel that it was worth going back to. So I stopped on my own," he says, in an interview to promote his deeply personal book Lapsed Agnostic about John, God and alcoholism.
"But I really had no understanding of what the process is. It is not actually just leaving down the glass. There is a whole reconstruction thing that needs to happen.
"You do need to connect with people who have similar experiences because your whole emotional structure is effected.
"It is completely left raw and unprotected in the absence of drink.
"So you have to find a way of dealing with all the things that come up," he says.
Something that came up that day during the interview in Dun Laoghaire was Waters' sex symbol status.
His smile widened when I told him that several women I know consider him a thinking woman's crumpet -- not least when The Irish Times hottie is pouting on Questions & Answers about fathers' rights, Dublin 4, and the famine.
"I'd much prefer people to think that of me rather than 'he is obsessed with the famine!'," he jokes.
- Barry Egan

So I definately think people should be able to say this group or that group or this facility exists.

They also should be able to say whether it is 12 step or not.

To be gung ho about one system and not open minded about others is fairly terretorial. The idea that someone will not go for help if their drinking is destructive and cant stop on their own is silly.

An addiction is serious and at least a person should go to their GP and discuss it.

goingpostal

I think the thread has got sidetracked on a politic type debate over a belief in god when it really should be exploring the methods that work.

AA claims to work by the alcohol dependent acquiring a very specific belief in a very specific type of god who will do very specific things in an alcohol abusers life, see Steps 3,5,6,7,11. The two issues are one and the same.

goingpostal

Aard wrote: »

@goingpostal:

I'm not going to argue with you any more. If it doesn't work for you, leave it. You have a chip on your shoulder, but that's no reason to bad-mouth something that could save the life of somebody reading this thread.

What's your gripe, techlady4160? Either AA didn't work for you, or it didn't work for somebody close to you.

you seem to be against an awful lot of things (AA included) that have and will continue to help many people beat their addictions.
i,m just curious, what would you recommend if not any of the above?

Typical nonsense employed by AA defenders and supporters. Ad hom attacks on the critic, questioning his motive, gross assumptions about the person making the criticism, rather than engaging in a debate about the issue of whether AA does more harm than good. Teaching people that they are powerless to overcome a destructive, addictive behaviour, that alcohol is "cunning, baffling and powerful", rather than a liquid in a bottle and that only Bill and Bobs version of god can help them, does great harm to many alcoholics. People who have been exposed to AA indoctrination and relapse engage in a higher rate of binge drinking and have a higher death rate. A trustee of AA World Services inadvertently proved this! http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-big_lie.html Lets not confuse a very small number of people quitting drinking while simultaneously attending AA meetings, and then giving all the credit to AA, with AA saving peoples lives. Correlation is not causation.