Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

goingpostal

celticcrash wrote: »

......Tell the truth .......
Find something to love.

I love telling the truth about 1930's cult religion masquerading as an effective treatment for alcohol dependency. And I love watching cult true believers having hissy-fits when someone blasphemes their sacred cult dogma and disrespects their demi-god founder.

Sunnyisland

When i started on this alcohol free journey i went to AA for a while, I personally found it to be very helpfull in my struggle, I took what I wanted out of it and left the rest,The question of AA is one that people have to answer for themselves. Some love it, some hate it, many have benefited from it. There are many ways to recovery, AA is one way.

CDfm

goingpostal wrote: »

I love telling the truth about 1930's cult religion masquerading as an effective treatment for alcohol dependency. And I love watching cult true believers having hissy-fits when someone blasphemes their sacred cult dogma and disrespects their demi-god founder.

Goingpostal thats makes you sound like a sicko.

Are you on some type of a pick on an addict drive or are you just bored.

Either way what you are doing is not very nice or healthy.

goingpostal

CDfm wrote: »

....... you sound like a sicko.

Are you on some type of a pick on an addict drive...........
.......not very nice or healthy.

celticcrash wrote: »

.......fall off the wagon......
..... your new religion is knocking AA.
..... your full of hate.
....

The fatal weakness of the ad hominem propaganda technique is that it attacks the messenger, while assiduously, studiously, refusing to discuss the topic at hand, in this instance, the true nature and utter inefficacy, as a means of quitting drinking, of the AA religion and whether NOT joining the AA cult religion is a better alternative to joining the AA cult religion.

Also since when did "revealing the true nature of a deceitful, dogmatic cult religion to unsuspecting 'prospects'"="a pick on an addict drive"?

CDfm

I post here because it is a non-drinkers forum and I dont drink. Its more like a social group and lifestyle thread and hopefully it will come back that way again.

When you think of it - it is a bit of a silly ambition for you to be the bad boy on a non drinkers thread. Its a bit like being a dieter and sneaking a chocolate or being a nun in a silent convent who talks.

What you say does not affect me but it is disrespectfull to others and I think you have crossed the fine line from bad to naughty. :rolleyes:

Sunnyisland

Goingpostal We have enough of a struggle with alcohol without struggling with whose recovery group is best or worst. I have said it before - If it works for you great, hold onto it, if it doesn't then try another approach. Think of the recovery scene as a restaurant with a large menu - choose what suits and respect other people's choice.

anymore

Uhuru wrote: »

Hi,

In answer to the initial question re: SMART recovery, I don't know of any groups in Ireland. Overall, the story so far is that AA's religious component doesn't suit everyone, so Rational Recovery was formed by Albert Ellis to fill this gap. RA is essentially AA minus God. SMART came into being as a result of a split in RA, when Ellis decided that recovering alcoholics should not be dependent on groups or God. RA people were fond of their groups and moved to smartly. Apart from the spiritual aspect of AA, all three groups are mostly cognitive behavioural in technique, while AA and SMART also include social support.

You may be interested to know that all alcohol treatment programs are equally ineffective. Only a small percentage make it, but that small number of sober people make it all worthwhile. Ultimately, it's down to individual perseverance and determination. It doesn't really matter which group you join, you are the deciding factor.

i know quite a few peoploe in AA, so i am surprised to see you say that only a small percentage make it. Any links or references to back up that statement ?

anymore

goingpostal wrote: »

The fatal weakness of the ad hominem propaganda technique is that it attacks the messenger, while assiduously, studiously, refusing to discuss the topic at hand, in this instance, the true nature and utter inefficacy, as a means of quitting drinking, of the AA religion and whether NOT joining the AA cult religion is a better alternative to joining the AA cult religion.

Also since when did "revealing the true nature of a deceitful, dogmatic cult religion to unsuspecting 'prospects'"="a pick on an addict drive"?

WalterMitty

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Empowering-Your-Sober-Self-Addiction/dp/047037229X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294079603&sr=1-1

robes

WalterMitty wrote: »

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Empowering-Your-Sober-Self-Addiction/dp/047037229X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294079603&sr=1-1

I’ve read that book “Empowering Your Sober Self”, and it really helped me to commit to staying sober. The approach is the exact opposite to the AA suggestion that alcoholics are powerless over alcohol and need to turn everything over to a Higher Power if they want to get and stay sober. The book is about recognising that inside every alcoholic there’s an addict and there’s a sober person, and that these two aspects are in conflict. By empowering and reinforcing the sober person inside you, you can break the cycle of addiction and live a sober life. How to do this is different for everyone, so everyone needs to work hard at creating their own recovery plan. It doesn’t matter what your religious beliefs are, or whether you have any religious beliefs, because it doesn’t depend on a power outside yourself, your recovery depends on you. It demands a lot of thinking and reading and learning and talking to others, but it works for a lot of people. Connecting with others doing the same is a huge help. There are groups in Ireland that meet once a week – see www.liferingireland.org.

There are loads of resources on the international website: www.lifering.org

bumm

DELETED

bitter

collie50 wrote: »

Ladies,

Please read the AA big book and tell me its not all about religion, come on...

Im not hear to completely distroy AA ,its not for me the bunch of wackos but I was just enquiring if their is any alternative to it. They hold a collection like in Church and finish with prayers and its not religious!!!

The big book states that if you are not a beliver now you will become one over time, I can get the page and quotes if you want!

AA is religious and the US Supreme Court deemed it so... AA is also very cult-like and instills fear in members. It has a succes rate of less than 3%.

bitter

Bill W wrote: »

Alcoholics have notoriously massive egos." I am God "syndrome..My higher power is any group i attend.I dont have issues with God you clearly have .Agnostic means i cannot prove or disprove his existence.The mind control thing you mentioned is laughable,you clearly have huge issues with authority Groovy.Did someone in AA tell you some home truths that you could not handle? if so ditto..Maybe you cannot handle the brutal honesty invloved in recovery and the steps..again i had problems there too, but thanks to AA and the good people who helped me, its not like that today .
If you have major issues with AA,authority, and God groovy then the problem is inside you not AA,ask any cousellor !

Was Bill Wilson an honest well-adjusted person?

bitter

The best advice I could give anyone is to take a good hard look at the people around you in the rooms of AA/NA. You will see very depressed people with ****ed-up lives even after many years clean & sober. The insanity in those rooms is scary to say the least. Remember it is a cult of personality ie "Bill Wilsons" that is prevelent in the rooms. It is a quack religion with very high rates of suicde,depression & relapse. The delusion is astounding by many long-time members. The lies in there is beyond belief and there is no accountability. The sponser thing is a form of abuse and a newcomer hasn't a clue who this sponser really is... It is a philosophy of magical-thinking and not grounded in reality for the most part. People talking about the "messages' they got from their Higher Power ffs.

Satanta

bitter wrote: »

The best advice I could give anyone is to take a good hard look at the people around you in the rooms of AA/NA. You will see very depressed people with ****ed-up lives even after many years clean & sober. The insanity in those rooms is scary to say the least. Remember it is a cult of personality ie "Bill Wilsons" that is prevelent in the rooms. It is a quack religion with very high rates of suicde,depression & relapse. The delusion is astounding by many long-time members. The lies in there is beyond belief and there is no accountability. The sponser thing is a form of abuse and a newcomer hasn't a clue who this sponser really is... It is a philosophy of magical-thinking and not grounded in reality for the most part. People talking about the "messages' they got from their Higher Power ffs.

Jeez... what AA rooms have you been going to? Was at a a meeting on Monday night. Had a laugh before and after the meeting. Talked about positive change during the meeting. Nobody got any messages AFAIK. Also, I dont know where you get the abuse element from sponsorship. Most people use their sponsor for advise to get their opinion on certain things.

And if I am being honest, you come across as being the very thing your username suggests.

It isnt a philosophy of magical thinking either. There is a spiritual element to it, which isnt grounded in any religion. What "magical thinking" are you referring to?

And my best advice is the same as yours. Take a good hard look at the people around you in an AA room. If you are not bitter to the hilt, I am sure you will see relaxed, open, honest and happy people.

Sunnyisland

When i started trying to stop drinking i went to AA ,went to different meetings around the city and met some great people,It really helped me being around other people who were on the same mindpath as me,I didnt get any brainwashed ideas or cult following all i got was good fellow minded people who helped me no end and i am over 2 years alcohol free now.




Do you not think We have enough of a struggle with alcohol without struggling with whose recovery group is best or worst. I have said it before - If it works for you great, hold onto it, if it doesn't then try another approach. Think of the recovery scene as a restaurant with a large menu - choose what suits and respect other people's choice.
__________________

Sunnyisland

For people with alchol problems. AA/Smart/RR/ philosophy,meds/diet/prayers/rabbits feet/4 leaf clovers/upside down horseshoes- Yes please. I will have them all thank you very much. Bring them on.:-)

bitter

Satanta wrote: »

Jeez... what AA rooms have you been going to? Was at a a meeting on Monday night. Had a laugh before and after the meeting. Talked about positive change during the meeting. Nobody got any messages AFAIK. Also, I dont know where you get the abuse element from sponsorship. Most people use their sponsor for advise to get their opinion on certain things.

And if I am being honest, you come across as being the very thing your username suggests.

It isnt a philosophy of magical thinking either. There is a spiritual element to it, which isnt grounded in any religion. What "magical thinking" are you referring to?

And my best advice is the same as yours. Take a good hard look at the people around you in an AA room. If you are not bitter to the hilt, I am sure you will see relaxed, open, honest and happy people.

Sounds like you are religious & an AA hardliner.. AA is grounded in Christanity,taken from the Oxford Group. Wilson thought he was continuing the work of Jesus Christ ffs and he also thought he was the reincarnation of some monk in the Middle Ages. If one prays to their Higher Power they will get what they want. The decimation of a members Self and reliance on Group Think or God think. " Don't quit before the MIRACLE happens, Happy DESTINY, Our primary purpose is to serve GOD.

Satanta

bitter wrote: »

Sounds like you are religious & an AA hardliner.. AA is grounded in Christanity,taken from the Oxford Group. Wilson thought he was continuing the work of Jesus Christ ffs and he also thought he was the reincarnation of some monk in the Middle Ages. If one prays to their Higher Power they will get what they want. The decimation of a members Self and reliance on Group Think or God think. " Don't quit before the MIRACLE happens, Happy DESTINY, Our primary purpose is to serve GOD.

:pac::pac::pac: This doesnt sound like anything I have ever heard in an AA meeting.

For the record I am not religious. I dont attend any house of worship, and I still find plenty for me in the AA program.

Sunnyisland

bitter wrote: »

Sounds like you are religious & an AA hardliner.. AA is grounded in Christianity,taken from the Oxford Group. Wilson thought he was continuing the work of Jesus Christ ffs and he also thought he was the reincarnation of some monk in the Middle Ages. If one prays to their Higher Power they will get what they want. The decimation of a members Self and reliance on Group Think or God think. " Don't quit before the MIRACLE happens, Happy DESTINY, Our primary purpose is to serve GOD.

You sound like your username,

Have you had any bad experiences in AA or are you just finding it hard like a lot of us in this battle against alcohol ?

bitter

Satanta wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac: This doesnt sound like anything I have ever heard in an AA meeting.

For the record I am not religious. I dont attend any house of worship, and I still find plenty for me in the AA program.

It's in the AA readings son...

bitter

realies wrote: »

You sound like your username,

Have you had any bad experiences in AA or are you just finding it hard like a lot of us in this battle against alcohol ?

thats very spiritual of you, live & let live eh?:rolleyes:

Sunnyisland

Whatever, but you come along here on a non drinkers forum criticising other people because they have decided to make change in there life with an organisation that you obviously dont agree with,

And if you read my posts i dont do AA anymore,but i would never ever criticize someone that goes there or anywhere else for that matter, This disease or whatever you want to call it is much to serious for that.

bitter

realies wrote: »

Whatever, but you come along here on a non drinkers forum criticising other people because they have decided to make change in there life with an organisation that you obviously dont agree with,

And if you read my posts i dont do AA anymore,but i would never ever criticize someone that goes there or anywhere else for that matter, This disease or whatever you want to call it is much to serious for that.

I am critizing the philosophy of AA/NA and it's founder Bill Wilson.....

I do not believe it is a disease,it is addiction or a habit.

Sunnyisland

bitter wrote: »

I am criticizing the philosophy of AA/NA and it's founder Bill Wilson.....

I do not believe it is a disease,it is addiction or a habit.

Bill wilson is dead a long time but if you want to keep bringing up all the negatives about AA which like any organisation has many carry on,i wont be getting in your way,

The answer about whether its a disease or not is still being debated by those who study and Analise them studies,but your opinion is noted, mine is still out there.


How is your drinking problem/abuse/trying to stop for a while coming on,as thats why were in this forum is it not ?

Satanta

realies wrote: »

How is your drinking problem/abuse/trying to stop for a while coming on,as thats why were in this forum is it not ?

Fantastic thanks. With the help of AA of course :)

bitter

realies wrote: »

Bill wilson is dead a long time but if you want to keep bringing up all the negatives about AA which like any organisation has many carry on,i wont be getting in your way,

The answer about whether its a disease or not is still being debated by those who study and Analise them studies,but your opinion is noted, mine is still out there.


How is your drinking problem/abuse/trying to stop for a while coming on,as thats why were in this forum is it not ?

Relax... The truth is always positive and as it's a program of rigorous honesty I think one would benifit from the truth.

Sunnyisland

I am well relaxed thank you very much.

bitter

realies wrote: »

I am well relaxed thank you very much.

good for you :cool:

Zab

This is a good thread for the most part. I am an atheist, am not an alcoholic and have never been to an AA meeting, so my opinion is based on what I've read here and elsewhere or talked to people about. I'm also clearly interested in the subject.

There is a lot of debate here as to whether AA is "religious" or not. I think that some of this has come from differing ideas on the definition of the word religion. The "higher power" or "God of your choosing" is very clearly supposed to be a supernatural power. AA may not be religious in so far as it doesn't promote a particular religion, but it is theist or in the very least spiritual (in the supernatural sense). I can take on board the "group of drunks" or "49a bus" higher power argument, but I think that then the 12 steps, if read with that in mind, become ridiculous. They only make sense if the higher power/God is supernatural. Even if you manage to gloss over the lost meaning in the steps when you use these non-supernatural powers, I'm not sure why you would choose to promote them in their weakened (or even nonsensical) condition over a different program's plan, say SMART's or LifeRing's.

I can see how the rest of AA (outside of the 12 steps; sponsors, meetings etc) could be very beneficial and in that sense I can see why somebody with a non-supernatural higher power could choose to go to AA if there was no other viable alternative, as was the case in Ireland. It also seems like the degree of religious/spiritual leaning varies significantly between different AA meetings, which could account for different people relating very different experiences.

There's a lot of criticism of AA in this thread, and I would say a lot of it is founded, however I would suggest that most of that energy would have been better spent trying to organise a local SMART meeting or similar. This particularly goes for the start of the thread before LifeRing started having meetings in Dublin. I suppose there are those that think AA is actively causing harm and feel the need to speak up against it, but surely if the feeling is that strong then there's all the more reason to actively provide an alternative.