Bertie V Enda

The_Minister

jmayo wrote: »

Nice to see the PDs are still in bed with FF :rolleyes:
Matta Harrie can continue her fine work providing us all with a better, value for money and responsible health service for the next 4 odd years:(

Maybe not for long - it is well known that Cowen despises the Progressive Democrats, and he is rumoured to still feel stung by his abject failure as health minister.

I think that Harney is right on most of what she says, and for those decisions that I don't agree with, I think her heart is in the right place. There are very few people that I will say that about.
For years our Health service was run for the electoral benefit of county councillors, with hospitals built in nearly every community that wanted them, regardless of whether or not this made sense.
This focus on hospitals means that we have one of the longest times in the world for hospital stays - we stay on average three days longer than French patients, because the services that let us help people at home are very basic.
Why are they basic? Because Mary Harney has had to try and build them from scratch, being fought by various vested intert groups along the way.

If you listen to what Harney says, watch the recordings of when she has spoken about the Health Service, read the articles that she has written about it, then you will see that what she is saying makes sense.

daithicarr

I read articles from leading health experts from trinity and other places who said it was a terrible idea this two tier health system, the one we have in completely disorganised, this will just add to the chaos.

I agree. Hospital and health services need to be provided around the country especially if they hope to develop the regions outside Dublin.

whats really needed is a massive reform of our whole public services system with much more accountability .

Other countrys can run relativly efficent public services. why cant we?

JMULL

JMayo. You mention Charlie, Padraic,Ray and Bertie. Charlie and Padraic like Enda Kenny are both mayo men. Just take their contributions to Mayo alone. Charlie - allergan, davitt house, ceide fields and knock airport (which Enda Kenny was against, probably because of his lack of vision). Padraic Flynn's work can be seen all over the Mayo Capital. Enda Kenny

jmayo

JMULL wrote: »

JMayo. You mention Charlie, Padraic,Ray and Bertie. Charlie and Padraic like Enda Kenny are both mayo men. Just take their contributions to Mayo alone. Charlie - allergan, davitt house, ceide fields and knock airport (which Enda Kenny was against, probably because of his lack of vision). Padraic Flynn's work can be seen all over the Mayo Capital. Enda Kenny

Did I say I was proud of either Flynn or Haughey ?
I could say what I really thought of them but I would be banned immediately.

So Charlie personnally brought Allergan to Westport ?
Did he also bring them to Arklow, oh wait they are shutting that one so we won't mention it.

Yes Charlie backed Knock airport but how and where was most of the money raised is always a question.
How much of it was down to Mons Horan ?

Ah yes but take a look at outside Castlebar. Drive the roads in East Mayo and try and find a Flynn highway. He feathered his own little patch and left the rest of the country to avoid the potholes. (Please do not count the cockup of a Charlestown bypass recently opened as you will find form another forum on here what the roads quality is really like.)
BTW you can also see Flynns legacy in Dublin, the nation's capital, as people inch their way home on a ring road always under construction and routed through a toll bridge that earns a private monopoly a small fortue each year from the capitals citizens.

How long was Kenny in a government over the years whilst the above were in power ?
How can you influence major decisions regarding funding (e.g roads, tourist infrastructure) if you are not in government ?

The consensus among FF and bertie supporters is so what if he took a few quid. (I can remember similar comments about CJH.)
It was not a few quid, someone has worked out the value of payments/lodgements being investigated as somewhere over 800,000 in today terms.
Now maybe to you that is a few quid, but it ain't to me.

Then the excuse comes about how he has done great for this country?
Yeah we have a third world health service that costs an arm and a leg, sorry maybe that should read a few lives every year.
We have a public service that is inefficient, unresponsible, over staffed in admin areas and overpaid in lots of other respects.

We have no real public transport infrastructure (Luas is unconnected joke), added to a few bits of motorway that have come in over budget and late. And this is after the boom years.

Maybe when the air finally runs out of the property bubble, people will really see the economy that bertie built for it what it really is, a farce built on cheap credit to benefit the builders and developers that inherit the FF tent in Galway come July.

PS you didn't mention what Ray did for Mayo?

AckwelFoley

enda Kenny is one of the reasons Fianna Fail are in power for so long.

The worst leader Fine Gael has had in my life time among a few whoppers they had.

Today he showed why he is what he is, when other party leaders could be professional and particularly John Gormley - in Saying they welcome the decision, hes a good politician, now lets get down to runing the country.

Enda Kenny can simply pass a few snyde remarks... and call for another General Election?!?!?! Whats worng with him? His wish to get into power is almost sickening.. How about you come up with some decent proposals and perhaps ppl will take your party more serious?

Moriarty

Ah the stench of party politics, there's really nothing quite like it..

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

the builders and developers that inherit the FF tent in Galway come July.

Ah yes, it had to be wheeled out.

Whoever said the old ones are the best was wrong. They're just old.

You forgot to mention the peace process where his input (amongst others of course) probably saves...

jmayo wrote: »

a few lives every year.

I keep forgetting Enda's list of achievements when put against the peace process. Then again, so many things would pale beside that, I guess.

magick

Hagar wrote: »

There goes an honest man?

More like the Ginger Winger

roadruner

GEORGE W KENNY Total Dunce

Before the last election "When I'm Taoiseach " :):pac::D

He came he saw and still hadn't a notion of whay was going on

As for Bertie

Another good man taken down by a sniper surrounded by books

cm2000

serfboard wrote: »

Apart from the 2 1/2 years that Fine Gael were in Government, Fianna Fail have been in power for the last 21 years and assuming that this current government will remain in power for the full term, then they will have been in government for 25 years.

It's hard for someone who's not in government to have any legacy of great achievements in the national sense.

well perhaps this is because of the inadequacy of Fine Gael leaders, Kenny included. Him not being in government is largely of his own and his parties making.

Liam Byrne

cm2000 wrote: »

Him not being in government is largely of his own and his parties making.

Nope, him not being in government is down to the fact that FG told it like it was in the run-up to the election, while FF promised the sun, moon and stars.

The problem is that the electorate fell for it.

Incompetence, blowing hot air and wasting money seems to get you somewhere in Irish politics (or at least in FF).....

Kenny is dead right, and I hope the electorate take note; it's not just Bertie who's been tarnished by this - all of his ministers and government stood idly by and did SFA, and therefore if the government hasn't been governing then it's ALL their fault.....so remind me why they're still in office ?

P.S. Unlike a lot of the posts so far, I've no allegiance to any particular party.....it's just that FG couldn't do any worse and so they deserve a shot at it on the basis that (despite what Conor seems to think) honesty, trustworthy and a resolve not to "turn a blind eye" are essential in politics.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah yes, it had to be wheeled out.

Whoever said the old ones are the best was wrong. They're just old.

You forgot to mention the peace process where his input (amongst others of course) probably saves...


I keep forgetting Enda's list of achievements when put against the peace process. Then again, so many things would pale beside that, I guess.

Glad to see O'Donoghue is letting you use the web again and just in time to trot out the party line.

Ah the peace process.
I suppose John Hume or indeed your own Albert Reynolds had nought to do with it.
Sure bertie did it all.
Of course Albert was stabbed in the back but in tradtional FF style he was forgotten.

According to the posts on here Kenny had as good a chance as bertie to leave a legacy even though his party have only been in government for 5/6 odd years during his time in Dail, where as bertie's party has been in power for over 20 odd years since 1977.
Yet another example of FF sums and mathematics in play :rolleyes:
No wonder some of your members forget to pay their taxes and declare bank accounts.

Breezer

The_Minister wrote:

Sorry, but no.
Fine Gael called for his resignation for months, and nothing happened. Again and again, they cried for it, and the media gave them five minutes, and nothing more happened.

A PD senator calls for an explanation, then the PD leader does, and within days he is gone.

Fine Gael did put pressure on him to resign, but I think the credit for the final shiv must go to the Progressive Democrats. (and I don't think that is a good thing for them).

Of course the PDs had more of an effect, they are FF's coalition partners. I didn't say FG were the reason Bertie resigned. People are saying Enda Kenny is incompetent. He is the leader of the Opposition and is doing a fine job at what the Opposition is supposed to do: point out when the Government is at fault.

The_Minister wrote:

Richard Bruton now, there is a man that you can respect.

Agreed. But I also respect Enda.

snyper wrote:

Enda Kenny can simply pass a few snyde remarks... and call for another General Election?!?!?! Whats worng with him? His wish to get into power is almost sickening.. How about you come up with some decent proposals and perhaps ppl will take your party more serious?

Enda congratulated Bertie on his work in Northern Ireland, something all of Bertie's supporters on this thread are also doing. He made the point that this was another FF leader leaving in less than ideal circumstances - can anyone argue? I agree that the General Election comment was a bit surprising, but only because there is no hope of it happening. Labour's Liz McManus agreed with the idea on RTE, although she also admitted it wasn't going to happen.

cm2000 wrote:

well perhaps this is because of the inadequacy of Fine Gael leaders, Kenny included. Him not being in government is largely of his own and his parties making.

Kenny has overseen one set of Local and European elections, and one General Election. Fine Gael increased their number of councillors in the locals, defeated FF in the Europeans, and made a dramatic comeback in the General Election which took them within a whisker of Government. A poor performance by Labour and the fact that many FG and Labour voters transferred to the Greens, who then went into Government with FF, resulted in FG remaining in Opposition. I am not blaming those parties, of course had FG themselves done better they would not have needed the support, but I think it is unrealistic to expect a party to achieve an overall majority straight after its worst result in over 50 years. We'll see what happens next time round.

mickd wrote:

It amazes me when FG supporters are scratching around to look for some achievements over the past 25 years however bringing a sport event that was ridden with drug taking to the country is hardly noteworthy

I was referring to Enda Kenny's personal achievements rather than FG's achievements. As Minister for Tourism, he brought a large sporting event to the country, thereby increasing tourist revenue. The drug issue is a matter for the cycling bodies to sort out. Again I ask what you expect a minister for tourism to do, if not to promote tourism?

mickd wrote:

Still was the most the successful Taoiseach since DeValera.

That depends on how you measure success. Personally I feel the good done for the country while in office is a better marker than the amount of elections won (some on promises of a dubious nature). I'd have far more respect for Sean Lemass, for example, than Bertie Ahern.

walrusgumble

Who cares just solong as we get re-elected.
Compared to that all the other political parties are utter failures.
Worse thing that ever happened to FF was Goerge Colley not becoming leader.[/QUOTE]

for integrity and honesty maybe yes - but if you wanted ireland to remain the nice little catholic ireland then no. colley was made from the same cloth as de valera.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Nope, him not being in government is down to the fact that FG told it like it was in the run-up to the election, while FF promised the sun, moon and stars.

The problem is that the electorate fell for it.

Incompetence, blowing hot air and wasting money seems to get you somewhere in Irish politics (or at least in FF).....

Kenny is dead right, and I hope the electorate take note; it's not just Bertie who's been tarnished by this - all of his ministers and government stood idly by and did SFA, and therefore if the government hasn't been governing then it's ALL their fault.....so remind me why they're still in office ?

P.S. Unlike a lot of the posts so far, I've no allegiance to any particular party.....it's just that FG couldn't do any worse and so they deserve a shot at it on the basis that (despite what Conor seems to think) honesty, trustworthy and a resolve not to "turn a blind eye" are essential in politics.

Kenny promised free medical care for all under 5s....except he was outwitted by Bertie on the Prime Time debate when it was uncovered as a fact that would not be true until 2012...(i.e. anyone with a child already born would gain no benefit)

Labour promised the same economic policies as Fianna Fáil.

They promised more hospitals, fully publicly fiunded hospitals....spun the figures to look lie they were promising the same amount of extra Gardaí as FF when in fact it was 800 less.

The 2 programmes for government would have been more or less the same...next time round the manifesto of anyone seeming to be a credible government will have to include increases in income tax.

THEM ARE FACTS!!!

Bertie is no saint, but God help us if that gobdaw Kenny ever became Taoiseach. Brian Hayes would have seen the teachers out on strike last November with his snivelling comments about absolutely anything. I'm sure he could be cynical about a chicken crossing the road. The Same goes for Leo Varadkar.

Charlie Flanagan and Reilly I can deal with, at least you can see they're decent people behind it all. I used to respect Hayes like these 2, but his incessant barking could drive anyone to drive a car straight at him!!

And just because nothing has come out of Enda Kenny's woodwork doesn't mean there's nothing there. There might be nothing there, maybe nobody looked, ore maybe he's just good at hiding corruption...WE DON'T KNOW. A Fine Gael member yesterday told me the major fault in Bertie's dealings with the Tribunal was

It's not half as complicated as it should be and there needs to be a lot more stuttering.

Party is irrelevant. The person is what's important. The party with the best people wins and does so consistently. It's not rocket science.

And for all Fianna Fáil's power at any costs harangers, take a look at comments made by Enda Kenny, but more interestingly FGs backroom Barry Walsh today.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er, I can't honestly see how you can justify ANY statement that "there could be corruption" in Enda Kenny's background.....other than some pathetic attempt at deflecting attention via mud-slinging - something to do with your blatant Fianna Fail signature, I'd guess ?

If you can say that so casually and without a shred of reason for such a suspicion, you could equally say it about ALL of the FF cabinet and the potential new FF leader/Taoiseach.....are they all "at it", ninety9er ? Surely - based on your criteria, there's just as much chance of Brian Cowen being corrupt as Enda Kenny ???? So how come you didn't make that statement about him ????

Since FF (and others) are telling us that we HAVE to presume that Bertie is innocent unless we have proof (even despite some very odd behaviour by him in refusing to use the numerous opportunities that he has had to clear his own name) then I cannot for the life of me see how ANYONE can suggest that there "might be" skeletons in Enda Kenny's closet.

If I came on here and said that you "might be" a drug dealer, WE DON'T KNOW, then I would be COMPLETELY in the wrong (you might well be, but I have no evidence WHATSOEVER and no reason or justification to say it).

Likewise (and just to clarify that this is not a personal attack on you) if someone else came on here and said that I "might be" a thief, but they "DON'T KNOW", they'd be completely wrong, I'd be entitled to get that post removed, and possibly sue them for slander and defamation of character.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to Bertie (despite his odd behaviour and unexplained finances); he's told varying stories and needs to be investigated further, but the issue wasn't whether he was "guilty" of "something"; the issue was that he didn't give a single consistent plausible explanation, and - at the moment is ONLY guilty of - not giving that single, consistent plausible explanation. Hence he's innocent but not "above reproach", because he's acted oddly.

But innocent and above reproach until proven guilty DEFINITELY applies to Enda Kenny.

If you have proof, fire away, otherwise retract that part of your post.

Breezer

I second what Liam Byrne said above. You're entitled to your views on the various FG TDs ninty9er, but that was a strange comment altogether.

I also take issue with this, as I did at the time:

ninty9er wrote: »

Kenny promised free medical care for all under 5s....except he was outwitted by Bertie on the Prime Time debate when it was uncovered as a fact that would not be true until 2012...(i.e. anyone with a child already born would gain no benefit)

While I don't have a record of the debate to hand (I'm not looking up the RTE archives at this hour of the morning!), if memory serves me correctly Bertie pressed Enda on details of how this plan would be implemented. Enda said that it would be introduced on a phased basis, and that the details were not yet worked out (call that lack of organisation if you want). However, Bertie interpreted a 'phased basis' to mean that in the first year children under a year of age would receive this benefit, in the second year children under two years of age, and so on. From this interpretation, he drew the conclusion that 'no child born today (May 2007)' would receive this benefit.

The problem is that Enda never said that that was how the system would be implemented. My major gripe about the whole thing is that Enda didn't pull Bertie up on this flawed logic (or to be more precise, he did, but didn't hammer it home and allowed Bertie to repeat himself as if that made him right), and allowed Bertie to score a point. A poor move in a debate, but it doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the plan.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

Glad to see O'Donoghue is letting you use the web again and just in time to trot out the party line.

Yawn.

The suggestion that anyone who defends FF is in the grip of some party machine and incapable of independant thought is an even older chestnut than your last post.

jmayo wrote: »

I suppose John Hume or indeed your own Albert Reynolds had nought to do with it.
Sure bertie did it all.

I don't believe I ever made that argument.

Who exactly are you addressing?

jmayo wrote: »

According to the posts on here

The fly in the ointment of that argument is, of course, that posts on here are hardly representative of how people think and vote, merely how posters here do.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

ninty9er, I can't honestly see how you can justify ANY statement that "there could be corruption" in Enda Kenny's background.....other than some pathetic attempt at deflecting attention via mud-slinging - something to do with your blatant Fianna Fail signature, I'd guess ?

If you can say that so casually and without a shred of reason for such a suspicion, you could equally say it about ALL of the FF cabinet and the potential new FF leader/Taoiseach.....are they all "at it", ninety9er ? Surely - based on your criteria, there's just as much chance of Brian Cowen being corrupt as Enda Kenny ???? So how come you didn't make that statement about him ????

Since FF (and others) are telling us that we HAVE to presume that Bertie is innocent unless we have proof (even despite some very odd behaviour by him in refusing to use the numerous opportunities that he has had to clear his own name) then I cannot for the life of me see how ANYONE can suggest that there "might be" skeletons in Enda Kenny's closet.

If I came on here and said that you "might be" a drug dealer, WE DON'T KNOW, then I would be COMPLETELY in the wrong (you might well be, but I have no evidence WHATSOEVER and no reason or justification to say it).

Likewise (and just to clarify that this is not a personal attack on you) if someone else came on here and said that I "might be" a thief, but they "DON'T KNOW", they'd be completely wrong, I'd be entitled to get that post removed, and possibly sue them for slander and defamation of character.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to Bertie (despite his odd behaviour and unexplained finances); he's told varying stories and needs to be investigated further, but the issue wasn't whether he was "guilty" of "something"; the issue was that he didn't give a single consistent plausible explanation, and - at the moment is ONLY guilty of - not giving that single, consistent plausible explanation. Hence he's innocent but not "above reproach", because he's acted oddly.

But innocent and above reproach until proven guilty DEFINITELY applies to Enda Kenny.

If you have proof, fire away, otherwise retract that part of your post.

You are absolutely correct. It could be said of any TD, Senator, Councillor or shopkeeper that they have corrupt paymet skeletons. what makes this different is that you and others ASSUME there is foundation to the claims without any proof.

For example I could say it is corrupt for teachers in the Dáil to accept their salaries while on sabbatical, but then we'd probably end up with by-elections in 10 or more constituencies around the country if we expected them to resign. And if theose people were to stand in those elections, we'd probably end up with 90% of the same people back in the Dáil. it's a viscious circle.

No TD runs for election for the good of their health, their family or their pocket. To suggest that would be utter folly. If Enda had spent the last 30 years teaching, he'd be earning the bones of €80k, could give grinds on the side and could retire after 30 years service with a lump sum payment. He'd work less hours, closer to home, and wouldn't have people hounding him everywhere he went. The same applies to all those solicitors, accountants, company directors and doctors who put themselves forward for election. We'll only have to wait 6 weeks to find out what jobs Bertie has the pick of, and it won't be a short list either. The reason being, the contents and movements, sources and destinations of the contents of his bank accounts, just like anyone else....have absolutely no effect on how they perform their job

oscarBravo

ninty9er wrote: »

You are absolutely correct. It could be said of any TD, Senator, Councillor or shopkeeper that they have corrupt paymet skeletons. what makes this different is that you and others ASSUME there is foundation to the claims without any proof.

That's a straw man, to say the least. It's also demonstrably untrue, and the fact remains that what you originally said is potentially libelous.

ninty9er wrote: »

For example I could say it is corrupt for teachers in the Dáil to accept their salaries while on sabbatical...

Only if you redefine the word "corrupt" to suit your own ends. Thankfully, there's already a fairly clear-cut definition in place.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yawn.

The suggestion that anyone who defends FF is in the grip of some party machine and incapable of independant thought is an even older chestnut than your last post.

I don't believe I ever made that argument.

Who exactly are you addressing?



The fly in the ointment of that argument is, of course, that posts on here are hardly representative of how people think and vote, merely how posters here do.

Ah sure if you want indepenedent thought you can join independent FF or is it now going to be know as the Kerry Freedom Party ?

There have been a lot of posters on here who have, just like in the case of Haughey, eulogised bertie's achievements.
Yes I will agree both of them had their achievements, but both have done huge damage to the party politic in this country.
Haughey's main achievement was that he helped start the whole celtic tiger ball rolling and he had more vision than bertie ever had.
But it was under his sterwardship that all this began to mushroom.

Bertie's achievement has been finalising the GFA and managing to help convince SF/IRA and DUP to embrace power sharing/policing.
His main failure has been that he was unable to use the money from our large economic boom to best advantage and that the economy became too reliant on property and residential construction.

The image of politicans amongst the public at large is now one of dodgy dealings, sizeable cash donations made by rich friends to politicans who don't declare it or see anything wrong with it.
A lot of people have made their minds up whether anything was done in return for all these donations/gifts.
Trouble is it is hard for tribunal to ever proof if anything corrupt was indeed done, thus to a lot people the politicans are corrupt even if they are not.

nhughes100

Here's the FF legacy - Leaving the country practically bankrupt and blaming the next man in. A corrupt Police force, a welfare nanny state where the answer to everything is -eh I think the government should be doing more - a bloated civil service who have never been taken on, not one motorway connecting two major cities, a health service with dead people on waiting lists, gangland, Dublin airport, a housing crisis, sold us out to Europe and tribunal after tribunal after tribunal.

Anything attributed to Bertie can also be attributed to numerous others, peace process, good friday agreement, celtic tiger.

I think the only innovative thing this government has done is the smoking ban. Which although I think it's great has helped kill pub culture in this country. So much of a legacy from a man who spun us the yarn that he only wants a pint down in Fagans

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

what makes this different is that you and others ASSUME there is foundation to the claims without any proof.

You are 100% incorrect.

As stated above, I have NO basis on which to assume that Bertie is guilty of planning corruption, and I have not assumed any such thing. I stated that in my post, FFS!!! Just in case you missed it:

Liam Byrne wrote:

Innocent until proven guilty applies to Bertie

Maybe I should have said "Presumption of innocence", but I meant the same thing, and that should have been perfectly clear since I also said

Liam Byrne wrote:

the issue was that he didn't give a single consistent plausible explanation, and - at the moment is ONLY guilty of - not giving that single, consistent plausible explanation

What I did say is that he's not beyond reproach or further investigation, simply because:

1) There were allegations made against Bertie that led to him being called to appear at the tribunal; true, the allegations could be false, but that was the first step
2) He has told different stories about how he received the money, including to Michael McDowell, Brian Dobson, the electorate, the tribunal etc
3) The account that he put forward was completely at odds with his secretary's evidence
4) He (and FF) have repeatedly claimed that he hasn't had a chance to clear things up - he had, and the first time was about 16 months ago at this stage

Those are all known facts, and if Bertie had cleared it up when he was given the chance (and if his accounts of the money - no pun intended - matched the evidence and paperwork) then there would be no reason to doubt him.

Given the above, there is reason to doubt him; it's up to him to come clean (although even if he does at this stage, it's too late - he should have done it 16 months ago....all the cloak and dagger and discrepancies have already left their mark).

But, to my knowledge, Enda Kenny
1) Has had no allegations against him of receiving money
2) Hasn't told differing accounts of money he has received
3) Hasn't had his secretary dispute any of his comments under oath
4) Hasn't had to - incorrectly - claim that he wasn't given a chance

If you can provide ANY combination of the 4 items above in relation to Enda Kenny - the same Enda who, incidentally, also didn't sign blank cheques for Haughey or ever get described as "the most cunning and devious of them all" by someone who paved the way in that regard - then I'll view Enda in the EXACT SAME WAY as I view Bertie.

So fire away - if you can come up with any of the above 4 - and we'll see how objective I am; you'd quickly see that I'd THEN view Enda the exact same way as I currently view Bertie, which is currently " [presumed, as is his right] innocent of planning corruption but definitely worth looking into, and far from forthcoming, giving me plenty reasons to doubt him".

And regarding your statement about it being "corrupt" for TDs to claim their salary :rolleyes: - as oscarBravo said, that's redefining the word; it might certainly seem immoral and/or unfair (similar to people wanting to give themselves a €38,000 pay rise) but unfortunately all that is perfectly legal and therefore not corrupt.

Since you seem to be searching in vain for something that's maybe not 100% corrupt, but certainly could possibly be viewed as such, might I suggest something much closer to the definition than your "TDs legally getting paid their teachers' salary" ??? Maybe try the word "nepotism"......as in "I gave them jobs because they were my friends" [a quote from the horse's mouth]

Rossibaby

I find enda kenny souless,not very likeable and very stiff.when he is trying to speak with passion he still speaks with a typical school teacher superiority complex tone in his voice. just don't find the man very likable and if he was taoiseach and under the same pressure as bertie i could see him crumbling.he stinks of upper class superior attitude,thats my opinion.

bertie came to my school 2 years ago to give a speech and you could of heard a pin drop with everyone[not just school officials and students] giving the man the utmost appreciation and respect.bertie has imo on a personal level a lot more going for him than kenny,seems like he could be a neighbour or a lad ya drank with as is the common opinion amoung some people about him.having said that he is totally corrupt,spends too much time at sports matches when he should be worrying about more important matters:Di dont think either are near the best choice for leading ireland,but between the two i'd definately have ahern.

enda has no legasy really when it comes to a national level...hasnt done anything,remains unproven and it beggars belief how people can say he'd be far better than bertie without anything to back it up accept letting their loyalties rule their decisions.perhaps however,enda may be taoiseach:pac:

Liam Byrne

Rossibaby wrote: »

enda has no legasy really when it comes to a national level...hasnt done anything,remains unproven

Kinda hard to do anything when you're not in power, really ?

Rossibaby wrote: »

....and it beggars belief how people can say he'd be far better than bertie without anything to back it up accept letting their loyalties rule their decisions

I've no loyalties, and I definitely can't see him being any worse; if you then remove the liability of being [at the very least] a 16-month distraction to the Dáil actually running the country, then surely that implies that he'd be "better", at least in relative terms ?

nhughes100

nhughes100 wrote: »

Leaving the country practically bankrupt and blaming the next man in.

A slump in construction is hardly 'practically bankrupt'. Anyone compare unemployment rates now and those of 20 years back?

As for 'blaming the next man in', it seems that the people keep putting FF back in. FF is the next man in.

nhughes100 wrote: »

A corrupt Police force,

Is this sweeping generalisation, so offensive to many who work at that job, based on the events in Donegal? I thought those events took place in the early and mid 90s, and what Ahern's Government did was establish a Tribunal of enquiry to examine it all? What happened on Ahern's watch?

nhughes100 wrote: »

a welfare nanny state where the answer to everything is -eh I think the government should be doing more

I agree that many blame the Government for just about every wrong now. Have no idea at all how this trait is linked to your perception that there is a nanny state. You are linking two completely different issues.

nhughes100 wrote: »

a bloated civil service who have never been taken on

Taken on? What does that mean? Take them on in a big scrap? Or something more sophisticated like a quiz? Why do they need to be 'taken on'?

nhughes100 wrote: »

not one motorway connecting two major cities

True. But coming from a position where we had 2 lane roads connecting major cities I see a vast improvement. I'd like free hoverboards for everyone, but all in due course.

nhughes100 wrote: »

a health service with dead people on waiting lists, gangland

Two problems that certainly need to be addressed.

nhughes100 wrote: »

Dublin airport

What's your point? It exists? It's too big? It's too noisy? It's too packed? It's too pricey? You can't just say bertie's legacy is 'X airport' and leave it at that.

nhughes100 wrote: »

sold us out to Europe

I thought there was a referendum and the people decided, unless Bertie voted a million times. You think its all another Pat O'Connor Pat O'Connor moment, just bigger?

nhughes100

Ah I see you suffer from that FF bad memory. The blaming of the next man in I referred to was Garrett Fitzgerald when he inherited a bankrupt economy after FF bought an overall majority. Brian Cowan will get the brunt of the upcoming bad times thus making way for Michael Martin as the next poster face of FF. And if u think all thats wrong with this country's economy is a slump in construction then maybe you should consider yourself as the next Minister of Finance.(6 Billion overshoot in revenue V spending so far)


The Gardai corruption is well known, I have friends who are Gardai and the stuff they tell me sickens me.My post clearly stated FF legacy not strictly Bertie's but if you go with the concept of collective responsibility then a lot happened on Bertie's watch(early 80's onwards in case your can't remember)

The welfare nanny state are obviously linked. Social Welface gets a ridiculous budget, u get grants for just about anything, u fk up and and have kid at 16 u get single mother, childrens allowance, medical card, bumped up the housing list, tax benefits if you're not living with the 16 yr old who got u pregnant. It's allright the government will bail you out. No personal responsibility allowed.

Civil service, I work in the public service and know exactly what goes on in it. Permenant pensionable has never been taken on in an industrial relations sense since you seem confused by what I meant. IE in national pay agreements, benchmarking etc. The notion that you get a job that you can't get fired from and are guarenteed an excellant pension is a nonsense that should have been top of any benchmarking agenda.


Dublin airport speaks for itself but since you asked - no rail link, one of the few capital cities in the civilised world with no rail link to the airport, outrageous parking fees, the worst designed checkin area I have ever seen and I've been to a lot of airports. Outrageous prices for food. I hope you've never had a bag lost or waited an hour for your luggage. Only one runway, why because Bertie/FF were afraid to upset the residents of North County Dublin, Bertie's backyard and Haughey's backyard.With the auld bad memory you probably forget the long lines at security when baby food was taken from mothers. Of course any of the baby food you buy once you get through security was all tested - yeah..... This all happened on Bertie's watch, the man who appointed Martin Cullen to Minister for Transport and in true civil service tradition, instead of firing the hapless minister just shuffle him around from dept to dept hoping he'll be good at something.

Now referendum, yep you're dead right - The Nice referendum, there was one, not only that there was two for those of you with bad memories. Not only that the people voted no on the first one because we were confused about nuetrality. So we had another one and we got it right that time so we didn't have a third one. Yes democracy is alive and well in this country, no vote for the next Taoiseach, no vote for the President, and as many votes as you like until we get the right answer.

Conor74 - The word is GUBU.

Breezer

nhughes100, I share your frustration with FF but some of the points you're making are ridiculous. The security measures at Dublin Airport are due to EU law. A metro link should have been in place long ago but it's in the pipeline, and even in the recent reshuffle of Transport 21 plans it wasn't touched. People voted No to Nice 1 due to concerns about neutrality. The Government and EU accepted this, and alterations were made that would protect out neutrality. A referendum was then held on the altered treaty and was passed with a large margin.

I'm wondering if it's time to merge a few threads around here, since they've all become a debate on FF.

nhughes100

The only thing ridiculous was the queues, no extra man power until the nation's airwaves were as clogged as Dublin airport with complaints. Typical of this country, just get it in and we'll worry about it when it happens. Don't worry there's lots of EU law that we don't adher to when it suits us - VRT for example. Don't forget the government had to be brought to European courts to pay women equal social welfare benefits.

Don't give me any crap about that nice referendum, that nuetrality line was a nonsense, people voted it through as they copped on that if it wasn't passed they would just keep putting it to the people until it was. Amazing how a Yes vote has ever been put back to the people just to make sure eh?

Transport 21 - Right you think it's perfectly acceptable for the "best" economy in Europe to wait till 2020 for a rail link to an airport that is at breaking point???? A lot of this ain't gonna happen anyway - Announced via a senior economist on Newstalk at lunchtime that the Irish economy is in recession.

Thats right, a recession - not an adjustment, not a slowdown in construction as our FF friends try to have us believe.

And explain your signature - How will voting yes to lisbon(which you've no doubt read) lead to punishing the government. Europe has gone to far already.

oscarBravo

nhughes100 wrote: »

Don't give me any crap about that nice referendum, that nuetrality line was a nonsense, people voted it through as they copped on that if it wasn't passed they would just keep putting it to the people until it was.

When we want you to be official spokesman for telling the country why we did what we did, we'll vote for you.

As for the rest: get back on the topic, or get off it. Oh, and commenting on someone's signature is off-topic for everything. If you want to talk about Lisbon, there's a thread for it.