Great day for Fianna Fail?

ninty9er

HydeRoad wrote: »

You are standing over the bottom line of the tribunal, and that is the question into verifiably CORRUPT payments, which is basically correct.

However your last line beggars belief. Bertie as essentially a good man.

Answer this one point. The worst elements in power in Irish political life since the dawn of the Irish Free State came to prominence under Bertie's watch. Bertie PROMOTED very bad people to office, people who were known to be bad, people who were part of the Bertie/Haughey circle, people who went on to adversely affect the wellbeing of this country and it's citizens. When they were found out, Bertie supported them in the Dáil, long beyond the point where it was reasonable to do so. Most of these corrupt people came to grief, some even earning jail sentences, but certainly not because of any yearning in Bertie or Fianna Fáil to bring honesty and accountability into Irish politics. As a result, apathy among the general public, too large a percentage of whom do not vote at all. Which calls democracy into question.

Bertie PROMOTED bad people. He SUPPORTED them. And he bears RESPONSIBILITY for their despicable actions over ten wasted years of squandered boom and unbridled corruption. The present tribunal enquiries into Bertie's personal financial affairs will not lessen that rueful legacy.

While some compromises have to be made for the stable provision of government, I never had pity for Haughey, Lawlor (RIP) was cringeworthy, Ray Burke I don't remember...I'm not that old. P Flynn is the 90s equivalent of Brian Hayes and he's no loss to the party. I don't know what Bertie's motivations for these appointments were, and it's likley no one ever will.

I take the point on board, but he cannot be blamed for their actions.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect a lot of FF members are surprised but not upset by todays news.

The party was taking a pounding over Bertie and his finances. At long last they have rid themselves of one headache, one issue that was becoming indefensible. I'd say a lot of Councillors are breathing a sigh of relief anyway.

I think it really depends what local councillors have been up to. I would not like to be a FF councillor in Cashel. FF lost a lot of council seats last time. It is the natural thing to bloody the nose of the incumbents without really voting them out. With economic indicators looking ropier than at any time over the last ten years , it could be a bad one.

I don't go with the great day thing, I would be inclined to say that someone woke up. To everyone except FF it was obvious that this would not go away, that the stories were getting bigger and bigger and that the only solution was to accelerate his departure.

But they don't seem to learn at all and place loyalty above all. A day after one Flynn has amnesia, a second one who had a hand in wrongdoings gets back into the party. But that's all right as long as they don't take any money out of joe public's pocket.

Sleepy

ninty9er wrote: »

I take the point on board, but he cannot be blamed for their actions.

So, if you hired a manager to run your business, he hired a shower of chancers who stole from you and grossly mis-managed your company you'd give him a €38,000 raise and say he can't be blamed for the actions of his staff? :eek:

hughkali

I hear that bertie has been offered a new job already with a firm based in Co. Kerry.

Mr.Micro

I do believe that Bertie was touting for a big job in the EU but his hurried exit as Taoiseach and his association to The Mahon tribunal and all the allegations has put the brakes on that with regards the EU hierarchy. He could always take up creative writing.

Also RyanAir boss Michael O'Leary was less that flattering about Ahern's (Irish Daily Mail, 8th April 08) handling of the Irish economy in the last 10 years and how he has wasted all the surplus from the boom and little to show for it.

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

So, if you hired a manager to run your business, he hired a shower of chancers who stole from you and grossly mis-managed your company you'd give him a €38,000 raise and say he can't be blamed for the actions of his staff? :eek:

Its all relative. If in that time he helped take your company from being some financial hellhole to being the fastest growing company in the world, while at the same time resolving a problem that had seen 5,000 employees killed, you might forgive him some stuff!

HydeRoad

Deleted User wrote: »

Its all relative. If in that time he helped take your company from being some financial hellhole to being the fastest growing company in the world, while at the same time resolving a problem that had seen 5,000 employees killed, you might forgive him some stuff!

Ah, but what if that company was doing well, DESPITE, rather than because of, that manager, and all those extra profits were SQUANDERED over a period of ten years, and the country is far less advanced in ten years than it should be?

The boom began fourteen years ago. Where is the Metro? Where is the health service? Where is the M50? Where are all the abstained voters?

Dave!

Ye can watch Brian Cowen's press conference from today
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0409/fiannafail.html

He's not exactly as plain spoken as Bertrude, is he?

HydeRoad

HydeRoad wrote: »

the country is far less advanced in ten years than it should be?

Yeah.

We never got the hoverboards.

HydeRoad

HydeRoad wrote: »

Ah, but what if that company was doing well, DESPITE, rather than because of, that manager, and all those extra profits were SQUANDERED over a period of ten years, and the country is far less advanced in ten years than it should be?

The boom began fourteen years ago. Where is the Metro? Where is the health service? Where is the M50? Where are all the abstained voters?

Ah for gods sake,we had a boom so what? You'd swear we discovered billions of oil wells or something.
Whilst its true theres been a lot of ineffeciencies,thats to be expected,nothings ever perfect.
Infrastructure wise we've been trying to catch up with 50 years of having no money and you expect all that catch up in the last 10 years?
A dose of realism needs prescribing methinks.

dRNk SAnTA

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah for gods sake,we had a boom so what? You'd swear we discovered billions of oil wells or something.
Whilst its true theres been a lot of ineffeciencies,thats to be expected,nothings ever perfect.
Infrastructure wise we've been trying to catch up with 50 years of having no money and you expect all that catch up in the last 10 years?
A dose of realism needs prescribing methinks.

Dose of realism?

Listen, when you make a budget to build X, Y and Z. And year after year you end up with more money than you'd budgeted for, but 8 years later X and Z haven't been built (or in some instances started!), then there is terrible mismanagement taking place.

Take the goggles off.

Hopefully we now have a Taoiseach who can ensure difficult things get done.

Sleepy

Deleted User wrote: »

Its all relative. If in that time he helped take your company from being some financial hellhole to being the fastest growing company in the world, while at the same time resolving a problem that had seen 5,000 employees killed, you might forgive him some stuff!

What fantasy world are you living in? We pay CEO's massive money (you know, around the 300k mark) because mistakes aren't tolerated at that level. We get the best possible people to do these jobs and pay them handsomely to do them because only the best people can do them. You don't hand the reigns over to Jimmy the book-keeper from down the road and let him have a lash at it.

Can you imagine, nay actually, I'm going to ask you to find me a good example of a CEO who's been forgiven being guilty of hiring/promoting multiple managers who misappropriated company funds; was guilty of over-spending on virtually every capital project they attempted; wrote off a project which they'd sunk €52 million into (e-voting); allowed another project to swell to over €120 million without producing a useable system (PPARS) and killed god knows how many through generally incompetent mismanagement (the Health Service).

Find me a CEO guilty of being *half* as useless as that who survived *five* years in charge of a PLC and I'll vote Fianna Fail in the next election.

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

What fantasy world are you living in?

Speaking of fantasies, did you manage to wring 3 whole paragraphs out of the idea that running a country was comparable with being CEO of a company! I was being tongue in cheek, see my reference to 5,000 employees being killed.

Find me a company with a civil war between Unionists and Nationalists in quarter of the head office and I'll accept the validity of this whole point...:rolleyes:

Sleepy

Maybe I'm being naieve and expecting too much from elected represenstatives but to my mind running a country is comparable with being a CEO (albeit one of an not-for-profit organisation):

It involves leadership & diplomacy.
It involves strategic management.
It involves delegating responsibility for various departments to your management team and holding department heads accountable for their performance.
It involves being accountable to one's citizens/shareholders.

There's actually very little that separate the two roles. Indeed, I remember Bertie's apologists making the comparison to explain his governments granting themselves large raises.

To come back on topic, personally, I'm thrilled to see Cowen take over from Ahern. He seems like a far more capable chap. Unfortunately for him, he's in a situation akin to that which Steve Staunton found himself in last year: his team are a bunch of talentless donkeys.

So, is it great times for Fianna Fail? Undoubtedly, they've [mod snip] and have managed to put a more talented person at the helm in the process.

themont85

Sleepy wrote: »

Maybe I'm being naieve and expecting too much from elected represenstatives but to my mind running a country is comparable with being a CEO (albeit one of an not-for-profit organisation):

It involves leadership & diplomacy.
It involves strategic management.
It involves delegating responsibility for various departments to your management team and holding department heads accountable for their performance.
It involves being accountable to one's citizens/shareholders.

There's actually very little that separate the two roles. Indeed, I remember Bertie's apologists making the comparison to explain his governments granting themselves large raises.

To come back on topic, personally, I'm thrilled to see Cowen take over from Ahern. He seems like a far more capable chap. Unfortunately for him, he's in a situation akin to that which Steve Staunton found himself in last year: his team are a bunch of talentless donkeys.

So, is it great times for Fianna Fail? Undoubtedly, they've [mod snip] and have managed to put a more talented person at the helm in the process.

If your going to highlight Ahern's faults as Taoiseach you can't overlook Cowen's as Minister. Some of his decisions whilst health minister could be called into question.

And of course Ahern was accountable to his 'citizens/shareholders', he's won 3 elections straight and has won two of these of his record in government. Also social partnership, transport 21, the good friday agreement and the national development plans would strike me as 'strategic management', whether it works or not it is undeniably a strategy. Also in referring to holding ministers accountable, whilst at times some have had bad moments apart from health(which nobody wants and is embedded with politics) its highly subjective for us to give a performance apprasial, its the taoiseachs choice and as ive said above the people had chosen what they thought back then.

I can't see how anyone can compare Ceo to Taoiseach. For one its a far more complex job in terms of its requirments in such diverse areas. And also a CEO doesn't have to have a social conscious just looks at the bottom line. They also don't have to deal with a sectarian conflict in their company do they? For instance Michael O'Leary, undoubtably one of the most successful CEOs in Ireland, however, would never be cut out for Taoiseach. Being a penny pincher wouldn't bode to well for this country's deprived. The two are incomparable imo, one a profit driven one and the other not.

Bob the Builder

themont85 wrote: »

....and the national development plans would strike me as 'strategic management', whether it works or not it is undeniably a strategy.

A strategy is supposed to work? isn't it?
Like that is the point of a strategy, right?
so you're saying that whether it works or not, it's still a strategy...

ireland could have afforded a lot of things in this economy with regard to infrastructure... instead, we reformed the western health board into a Health service executive and still employed the same dumbass's, just in different positions... is that a strategy?

Where's this metro that we were promised in the transport 21? strategy?

need I say more?

Sure bertie was great at joining people together and great at talking and making plans, but he wasn't a good strategist and money and financial planning was a joke..

themont85

Meh well I always thought a strategy was planning with a long term goal in mind, I think the things I listed were some strategies undertaken by his government. Delays ect are all going to happen when dealing with the public service, sure his government weren't perfect and there has been some waste and things not working perfectly, but it doesn't mean they didn't have a strategy. The HSE was a strategy, a failed one as of now. And why talk with such a hyperbole before you edited saying basically nothing had been done, this country has a infastructural deficit which will take decades to sort, not 10 years. Metro isn't due until the next decade I think. What he didn't do and his greatest failure as Taoiseach was, was failing to reform the public service. But to say no strategy is ridiculous imo. Strategies can fail you know.