Windfall! tree law

ivanthehunter

As far as i am aware, trees which fall out onto the public road are fair game for the person that cuts them up for removal,
I am also under the belief that wild plants which grow along the roadside are fair game for anyone who picks them. ie blackberries.
Where does timber stand when it falls:rolleyes: on a public road or on a verge to which the public have access?
Any one ever heard of such nonsense?

I know that where trees canopy grow in to a property, the owner of the effected property can legally cut down such problem limbs but he must return them to their rightful owner...(ie the owner/occupier

cast_iron

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Any one ever heard of such nonsense?

.

jawlie

ivanthehunter wrote: »

As far as i am aware, trees which fall out onto the public road are fair game for the person that cuts them up for removal,
I am also under the belief that wild plants which grow along the roadside are fair game for anyone who picks them. ie blackberries.
Where does timber stand when it falls:rolleyes: on a public road or on a verge to which the public have access?
Any one ever heard of such nonsense?

I know that where trees canopy grow in to a property, the owner of the effected property can legally cut down such problem limbs but he must return them to their rightful owner...(ie the owner/occupier

"As far as I am aware". Hmmm. If you own a tree, and if falls down into someone elses's property, or onto public property, why would the act of falling change the ownership of the tree?

If my wallet falls out of my car door onto the ground of a public car park, does that mean that my wallet is no longer my property, and does it also mean that if anyone finds it and removes cash from it that they are not stealing?

Thirdfox

Maybe...under the legal principle of finderus keeperus.

But seriously - would taking cash from a found wallet be stealing? Does the person have the necessary mens rea/actus reus to commit the crime? They didn't take the item from you - you left the item through your negligence/mistake.

If someone's tree fell into your garden would you not be able to sue under the (Hedley Burne?!?) principle? Not what the OP is asking about though.

So I too would be interested in getting an answer to this quirky question...

Tom Young

Healy v Bray UDC - Rylands and Fletcher - to a certain extent.

Thirdfox

That's the one - good thing I don't study tort law anymore!

NoQuarter

might sue you under Hedley Byrne for your finderus keepers comment tho!!

Thirdfox

king-stew wrote: »

might sue you under Hedley Byrne for your finderus keepers comment tho!!

Hence the signature :pac:

You've never come across finderus keeperus? I believe Denning was a great advocate of it...

jawlie

Thirdfox wrote: »

But seriously - would taking cash from a found wallet be stealing?

Of course. Stealing is taking something which does not belong to you. Finding a wallet, and knowing it and its contents do not belong to you, does not mean you have a right to claim ownership.

Our man in Havana

Theft by finding.

Thirdfox

jawlie wrote: »

Of course. Stealing is taking something which does not belong to you. Finding a wallet, and knowing it and its contents do not belong to you, does not mean you have a right to claim ownership.

Then does that mean that someone who picks up a euro from the ground is liable for theft? At what point do people lose ownership of their items? Once they "lose" something?

I'm not talking about the moral side of things (personally if I ever found a mobile phone/wallet I would try my utmost to return it to the owner or at the very least hand it into Gardai) but the legal side - would someone be a criminal if they kept what they found?

Bond007 - is that an actual crime in the statute books?

Victor

Thirdfox wrote: »

Then does that mean that someone who picks up a euro from the ground is liable for theft?

If you can identify the owner, e.g. if it is in someone's back yard, then it is theirs and you taking it would be theft.

If it was 4:30am just as the Nitelink ticket bus pulled off, I understand anything up to £5 is yours. Otherwise you have to hand it to the Garda and it would be dealt with under the Police Property Act.

ivanthehunter

Tom Young wrote: »

Healy v Bray UDC - Rylands and Fletcher - to a certain extent.

sorry tom but i dont study the legal cases so i dont know that one

I have been lead to believe that any and all wild fruit which is not grown as a crop is fair game in the uk so i would think that the same is true of Eire!

Well then now lets see,say i am on the public road and I picked some fruits which were growing wild on a hedge boundary and i knew that the hedge belonged to farmer brown;).
Would it be theft if i
A) picked only a hand full........estimated value euro3
piccked only a bucketfull.....estimated value euro20
C)picked a wheel-barrow full....estimated value euro140
D)picked them all

---

What if i am driving down the road and i spot a hearty log for the fire stuck in the ditch and lets imagine that i believe that its from farmer browns big beech tree. Is it considered theft if i remove this log? assuming that the log is partially blocking the road or at the very least is not on the land which is enclosed and which is owned by brown.

What if its a bough instead of a branch? do i go to jail for longer:rolleyes:

What if its a series of boughs and the trunk is completely separated from the roots and from browns field?

Where did the meaning of windfall come from as it would seem that it refereed to a bit of good luck.

Do the old laws not say that a man should alway endeavor to unblock a road.

How can a person pick fruit if its unlawful to pick a bit of timber, especially when its fallen and is no longer growing?

Our man in Havana

I know of a case from the District Court going back 20+ years where a man was convicted of theft by finding. In those days An Post delivered lottery tickets to agents to sell. This particurlar day the post van was going up the street and the the back door opened and out fell a package containing 1000 National Lottery scratch cards. The accused found said package and opened it. He proceeded to scratch off the tickets. He then went to cash in his winnings. At this point it was discovered that the tickets were the ones that went missing. The man was charged with theft and was convicted.

ivanthehunter

bond
how do lotto tickets com pair to fruits from bushes?
These objects had a definitive value, and to an insult to injury the clown tried to claim the winnings.

A fallen tree might be deemed as having no value especially if the past owner:rolleyes: is unable to have it removed or it is going to lie there rotting.

The closest thing to this tree problem is the fruit pickers that are seen in the droves in or around the month of August, is this illegal too or is it judged as "theft so minor" as to not warrant any alarm.
Perhaps there is a difference between the plant and the fruit it produces in the eyes of the law:cool:

Some plants are also fair game if found along the roadside, they are perhaps deemed as weeds but in reality they are not fruits and they would be further a kin to the pilfering of windfall...

Again i make a note as to the origins of the word "windfall" and its use in our modern language. It seems to refer to a benefit which has arrived out of the blue and landed at your doorstep through good luck more than through any planning...
I would think that it is more a British law and is set from days of old:pac::pac:

Caoimhín

You do not have any right to remove any timber which has fallen on a public road/area. Like wise you do not have any right to eat your neighbours fruit if it falls into your land, although you are under no obligation to give it back to him, so he would have to collect it, and presumably trespass on your land.

If you are interested in this,
Coford have published a great book, "Trees, forests and the law in Ireland" D. McHugh & G. Gallagher 2004.
http://www.coford.ie/iopen24/pub/index.php?cPath=0_1173

Hope this helps.

Carawaystick

I'd imagine any person could remove an obstruction caused by a fallen tree across a road if they were able to safely do so, to allow them pass along the road.

I thought there was a right to enter someone's property to remove your own personal property.

Caoimhín

Moving the obstacle and taking away the timber are a bit different. I know what you mean though and I think most of the time taking the timber wouldn't be a problem, especially with Coillte as their foresters just don't want the hassle. I wouldn't go pinching some farmers fallen Beech though.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd imagine any person could remove an obstruction caused by a fallen tree across a road if they were able to safely do so, to allow them pass along the road.

Yes, after all public roads have rights of way.

I thought there was a right to enter someone's property to remove your own personal property.

So I can drop into the Bank at midnight a pick up a few hundred? :eek:

I think people are confusing the law with practicalities. Most farmers aren't going to complain because you picked a handful of berries or an apple because its more trouble than its worth and karma* and all that. Harvesting the farmer's crops and absconding with them is another matter.

Note that most farmers own to the middle of the road, so the berries in the hedge are still on his land - the road is merely a right of way, not a right to pick.



* I think the legal types call it equity.

johnnyskeleton

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Well then now lets see,say i am on the public road and I picked some fruits which were growing wild on a hedge boundary and i knew that the hedge belonged to farmer brown;).
Would it be theft if i
A) picked only a hand full........estimated value euro3
piccked only a bucketfull.....estimated value euro20
C)picked a wheel-barrow full....estimated value euro140
D)picked them all

A) Yes
Yes
C) Yes
D) That's a very interesting point and it needs some serious consideration; it's really dependant on the actual circumstances, you means of knowledge and the time of day.

ivanthehunter wrote: »

What if i am driving down the road and i spot a hearty log for the fire stuck in the ditch and lets imagine that i believe that its from farmer browns big beech tree. Is it considered theft if i remove this log? assuming that the log is partially blocking the road or at the very least is not on the land which is enclosed and which is owned by brown.

Yes

Victor wrote:

* I think the legal types call it equity.

Slightly off topic, but it looks like there are a lot of FTBs will be going into negative karma in the coming months.