Digiweb influence on the broadband forum?

CuLT

Earthhorse wrote: »

I disagree. Full disclosure is good ethical practise. It allows users make fully informed decisions about the content and possible bias present in any post.

I would suggest people who regularly contribute to the Broadband forum and are working for ISPs change their location or perhaps their sig to reflect this. They should do so as an act of good faith.

I don't deny that some of what you describe above would follow but I think you are overstating the case.

This is not enforcable, plain and simple. If it's not enforcable, there is no point.

damien

CuLT wrote: »

This is not enforcable, plain and simple.

Neither is libel. Users are trusted not to be idiots, it works mostly. Is everything premoderated on boards.ie? No.

Cabaal

BuffyBot wrote: »

I think people need to take off the tin-foil hats and de-bunch their panties frankly

(And no, I don't work for any ISP )

Indeed, as for ISP's causing trouble, over the years we've had Eircom, Three, Perlico, IBB and NTL employee's causing issues on the Broadband forum...generally the post stuff and then realise they could get fired or in trouble for said posts.

As long as ISP employee's can keep there work and there posts separate I see no issues, I myself work for a large ISP but they don't supply any services within Ireland.

I've never seen any cause for concern with Wattys or Moriarty's posts on the Broadband forum or others, infact I have to say Wattys has been extremely helpful to users and he's even helped write parts of the FAQ.

As for saying people should identify themselfs, sure in some cases they should but default for all no, the reasons posted by Cult are valid - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55566526&postcount=29

Earthhorse

CuLT wrote: »

This is not enforcable, plain and simple. If it's not enforcable, there is no point.

I don't ask for it to be enforced, which is why I described it as an act of good faith.

You're essentially saying that where ethical behaviour can't be enforced there is no point to it; I would say where it can't be enforced it is of even greater importance.

I don't see what the problem is.
If Watty gives bad advice,then counter it.
If he posts something like Digiweb are the greatest ever because they are and thats that,then report the post as a shill.
But if you disagree with his advices,then debate them.
Thats what a discussion forum is all about.

thebman

Its simple, would the bb forum be better off without some of the ISP posters, no! Boards is a good way to get in contact with the members of tech support for companies that actually do want to help users when the regular support starts ignoring you.

In most cases this comes via PM because they don't want other members to know they work for an ISP or their ISP to know they post on boards. It would be a shame to loose these members.

Watty helps and sometimes he has to hold back which is acceptable. He's change his sig now but I don't think he was required to because there is no way to enforce that policy safely so he has again done more than he needs to for the people in the broadband forum.

I think the people that know what they are talking about can quiet the people that try to abuse the system.

CuLT

Earthhorse wrote: »

I don't ask for it to be enforced, which is why I described it as an act of good faith.

You're essentially saying that where ethical behaviour can't be enforced there is no point to it; I would say where it can't be enforced it is of even greater importance.

I just don't see what the incentive for the employee in question is; there exists only the possibility for negative consequences.

People (some, not all) will be baying for blood every time they express an opinion (as proven with watty, who has an extremely well informed one), while essentially anonymous possible competitors pick them apart. Cabaal and Moriarty could put all the stickies and recommendations they want up, but nobody in their right mind is going to expose themselves to that. Digiweb clearly employs some very crazy, very helpful people.

Maybe I'm being overly negative? If you can think of a positive result for an ISP employee doing this (who is not on company mandate to post to boards.ie) I'd be interested in hearing it.

watty

Yes, The burning ******s, pitchforks, peasants baying for blood etc.. I'm only posting to try and help people. I've not been told to post nor paid for it.

As I said before the last time this issue came up (when I spoke my views on speed too), I begin to wonder why I bother.

The Sponge Bob in particular warned me long ago not to talk about other people's products, but there is so little Informed opinion and explination, I can't resist commenting. I'm not posting because I work in Digiweb. I work in Digiweb because I know about this stuff, dating back to 1971 Aer Lingus Irish Young Scientist when RTE Judge said "Of course we will never have Laser communication or Digital TV". No prizes for guessing what my purely paper proposals were.

(For those not aware, all fibre uses lasers, and Digital Video Editing used some years before Digital TV to Home appeared).

watty

Hmm... Boards's muck filter takes objection to descriptions of bits of wood

oscarBravo

Only if they're ghey.

Crash

Panties, knot, pathetic, much?

This is the stupidest pile of horse****e i've ever read in my life - first off if you want conflict of interest then you have a perfectly made one in that boards is hosted by digiweb. And prior to that, you had the same with 365. and and and and and.

You'll find conflicts of interest wherever you look - simply put you should be quite happy that you have a user who is pretty knowledgeable about the tech in use posting there, and a mod who does have the cop on to seperate his work and non-work life and does a GOOD job.

Oh, if it makes any difference to my above statement, I worked for digiweb for 3 months.

OMFG CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!

...

Earthhorse

CuLT wrote: »

I just don't see what the incentive for the employee in question is; there exists only the possibility for negative consequences.

People (some, not all) will be baying for blood every time they express an opinion (as proven with watty, who has an extremely well informed one), while essentially anonymous possible competitors pick them apart. Cabaal and Moriarty could put all the stickies and recommendations they want up, but nobody in their right mind is going to expose themselves to that. Digiweb clearly employs some very crazy, very helpful people.

Maybe I'm being overly negative? If you can think of a positive result for an ISP employee doing this (who is not on company mandate to post to boards.ie) I'd be interested in hearing it.

The incentive, if any, is that it creates trustworthiness. If you're up front about your position in things it's harder to be accused of duplicity.

Shills will be shills, there's almost nothing we can do about them. But their attempts to discredit good posters will only become more apparent if we can see they are solely attacking the posts of Digiweb (or other ISP's) employees.

That's the theory anyway. Perhaps I'm over-estimating the intelligence of the average user of the broadband forum. Personally, where someone had been honest with me about their vested interest in something without prompting I would be more likely to take their posts at face value than if it were revealed after the fact.

WizZard

Earthhorse wrote: »

The incentive, if any, is that it creates trustworthiness. If you're up front about your position in things it's harder to be accused of duplicity.

The opposite can also be said. If someone declares that they work for someone, and then criticises a competitor (validly) they will be accused of being biased, when they may not necessarily be so.

Earthhorse wrote: »

Shills will be shills, there's almost nothing we can do about them. But their attempts to discredit good posters will only become more apparent if we can see they are solely attacking the posts of Digiweb (or other ISP's) employees.

More than any other forum I frequent, boards.ie users have very advanced shill radars. This, along with the harsh (and righteous ) treatment of shills generally discourages shilling (especially from long-standing members)

Earthhorse wrote: »

That's the theory anyway. Perhaps I'm over-estimating the intelligence of the average user of the broadband forum.

I think you are under-estimating the bias that can be displayed, especially from "anonymous" users on the internet.

Earthhorse wrote: »

Personally, where someone had been honest with me about their vested interest in something without prompting I would be more likely to take their posts at face value than if it were revealed after the fact.

Maybe you would, but I have an altogether more cynical view of people. I think it would unfairly bias someone about that persons opinions.

The fact is, shills are found out fast here, and anyone shilling for their company (known or unknown) would be identified and purged faster than you can even imagine.

DingDong

Are we hanging watty( & co.) or what, I spent half the day looking for a donkey and a decent tree to hang him from. Just short the rope can anyone hook me up

paulm17781

Moriarty wrote: »

I have no idea what Watty does or does not know for sure. I'm not here to defend him either. You'll notice that he only commented on the technology used by IBB currently in the thread we're discussing - that's perfectly fair comment as far as I'm concerned.

How are the limitations of DSL and EDGE or availability of cable or fibre relevant to IBBs technology. Further why no "metro is only available in urban areas" type comments. In fact, nothing disparaging about Digiweb stuff, just everyone else.

Watty, post #25 they are excellent points and I can't disagree, fact is I didn't know you worked for Digiweb. If I did, I would have called it biased, I know I queried you on Blueface. I thought they were just assertions that a mod shouldn't make. I did not know you worked for a competing company. Fact of it is, if people think you're just another user / hobbyist then people will think it is unbiased. If people know you work for Digiweb, they can decide for themselves. All you need is a decent sized font in your sig stating you are a Digiweb employee, like an e-mail sig. "Due to popular demand I admit I do stuff in Digiweb" does give a clear picture. 'Stuff' could be deliver post to them.

CuLT

paulm17781 wrote: »

How are the limitations of DSL and EDGE or availability of cable or fibre relevant to IBBs technology. Further why no "metro is only available in urban areas" type comments. In fact, nothing disparaging about Digiweb stuff, just everyone else.

Watty, post #25 they are excellent points and I can't disagree, fact is I didn't know you worked for Digiweb. If I did, I would have called it biased, I know I queried you on Blueface. I thought they were just assertions that a mod shouldn't make. I did not know you worked for a competing company. Fact of it is, if people think you're just another user / hobbyist then people will think it is unbiased. If people know you work for Digiweb, they can decide for themselves. All you need is a decent sized font in your sig stating you are a Digiweb employee, like an e-mail sig. "Due to popular demand I admit I do stuff in Digiweb" does give a clear picture. 'Stuff' could be deliver post to them.

Who do you work for and why do you not include it in your signature?

daiixi

paulm17781 wrote: »

If people know you work for Digiweb, they can decide for themselves. All you need is a decent sized font in your sig stating you are a Digiweb employee, like an e-mail sig. "Due to popular demand I admit I do stuff in Digiweb" does give a clear picture. 'Stuff' could be deliver post to them.

*cough* tea boy *cough*


Ahh come on, this is an internet forum. I can say the moon is made out of honeycomb. Does it matter what career I have or who I work for or can you still make up your own mind? If you're going to believe everything you read on the internets, you're an idiot.*


*generalised idiot, not directed at paulm. Unless he now believes the moon is made of honeycomb.

Sparky

But the moon is.

watty

Metro isn't just for urban.

However in some Isolated hamlet there might be problem with backhaul. But that applies to everything except Satellite.

Since I'm only the Tea-lady and Postman, you can be sure the actual technical people at Digiweb are sharp.

paulm17781

CuLT wrote: »

Who do you work for and why do you not include it in your signature?

I'm a sys admin for a software company. I don't post on any forum that is relevant to my career nor would the software we sell be relevant (large corporate customers are our focus). However when a mod and an employee of an ISP refers to the likes of Blueface, a VOIP provider who compete in areas with Digiweb as "loss making third party providers" that is saying "we have something they don't" and makes an assertion about a company with no proof of a basis, I asked him for proof. I've never seen Watty post anything negative about Digiweb and I didn't know he worked for them. It gives a negative slant which intentional or not, puts a bias against other companies.

People take a lot of boards as fact, whether they should or not is another matter. If a well informed mod is making statement about other companies, it is only right that readers know he works in the same industry and for a competitor in certain areas.

admol

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Whats your point?

Whatever about fellow posters the moderators of a forum should be completely impartial. I thought this was a no brainer?

As for Digiweb hosting boards i was recently on the Web Development section of boards and I was surprised to read how little we are allowed to talk about the respective hosting operators in Ireland. I was actually looking for advice on the diffferent providers but could find very little useful information on boards. Has Digiweb had an influence here too?

The Sweeper

Omg Watty Has Linked Digiweb From His Signachoor!

Free Advertiminising!!11@

randylonghorn

admol wrote: »

As for Digiweb hosting boards i was recently on the Web Development section of boards and I was surprised to read how little we are allowed to talk about the respective hosting operators in Ireland. I was actually looking for advice on the diffferent providers but could find very little useful information on boards. Has Digiweb had an influence here too?

There actually used to be a Web Hosting forum, but the various kiddies couldn't play nice with each other, but spent their time bitching and back-biting until the admins got tired of it (understandably) and shut it down. Hopefully we're not looking at the beginning of an encore ...

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Omg Watty Has Linked Digiweb From His Signachoor!

Free Advertiminising!!11@

Lol, yep ... fecked if you do, fecked if you don't!

ozt9vdujny3srf

It's an internet forum. I personally would have no interest in declaring anything about my professional or personal life in the interests of "balance". I really dont see why anyone needs to declare anything. For instance, say I post on Building and upgrading, asking what processor i should buy. And somebody posts up "AMD XXX is the best processor for your needs", say this person is a diehard AMD fanboy, does he need to then declare his fanboyism on every post he makes / in his sig? No, but if the information he is giving is misleading or incorrect you can be damn sure there will be 10 replies saying so.

IMO its ok for Watty to say anything he likes on the BB forum, I'd even go so far as to say he could recommend a Digiweb service to somebody. Why? Because Digiweb employee or no, everything he says stands up to the scrutiny of every other person the forum.

Edit: Sorry to use you as a direct example Watty, I mean it for anybody on Boards.

watty

I'll say again, it's public knowledge which VOIP operators and ISPs make money and are losing it (as a valid choice in many cases to build up customer base, not due to incompetance).

It's curious though that ComReg's VOIP leaflet only lists 3rd party VOIP and does not talk about the potentially higher quality (inherent in the technology) VOIP that ISPs offer ther own customers (Secure on own network, and QOS managed):
BT, eircom (trial), Magnet, Smart, Digiweb, UPC (Chorus/NTL).

3rd party VOIP such as Gizmo, Skype, Blueface or Vonage can't be secured either at all (SIP) or QOS managed at all. Anyone like to point out a pure VOIP 3rd party operator that makes a profit? These are well know industry realities. I don't know why some people take exception to being told "how it is".

If someone is using 3rd party SIP based VOIP, they can be called "for free" simply by IP address (a bot can scan for the open ports used, no phone number needed). With secured ISP VOIP, the IP address is on the ISP's private network. The user can ONLY be called via voice gateway/phone number. This would cost a voice spammer money.

I've had 3 Digiweb advert links in my Sig for a long while since a complaint in IoffL forum. twice now (same people as orginal complaint in some cases) I have been attacked on my responses to questions about speed (1: Will Digiweb Increase, 2: Will IBB increase). The main "crime" seems to be actually talking about extra things the OP did not ask.

This isn't a court, but Internet forum. In neither case did the Mods say I was madly off topic. If 1/10th of what I post is useful that's fairly high for a forum

Some people seem to want to deny me right of free speech simply because I'm working for an ISP. Do you want to drive away all broadband experts because they work in Broadband related Companies/Jobs?

The only ISP manager / CEO that has ever criticised me ( to me) for being negative about their product is the CEO of Digiweb

If people feel I am harsh / inaccurate on a technology/product they can post a rebuttal.

watty

On the "Mod" stuff I only Mod TV/Broadcast related stuff in what was hosted ICDG. If people post "broadband stuff" in the cable part, we mostly send it to Broadband. The Cable part is supposed to be only TV & IPTV.

I have no Mod authority in Broadband, and the Digiweb people that do Mod there have no BB involvement, they are involved in Hosting support.

paulm17781

The fact is: You make assertions about companies that compete with Digiweb. I always thought these were just your opinions. Maybe they are. I didn't know you worked for Digiweb, whether you like it or not, that adds a bias that people should know about when you're giving your opinions.

Boston

CuLT wrote: »

This is a bad idea because

a) only the honest users are going to admit it
b) as a result of this, they are going to be harrassed publicly and via PM, and will probably just not bother posting anymore after a while
c) the percentage of dishonest ones will proportionally increase
d) most of these people probably aren't even officially allowed to post, forcing them to identify themselves will drive away all the genuinely knowledeable, helpful employees of the various ISPs that post on the BB forum for fear of disciplinary action

I agree with you. Fact is by forcing people to declare their associations you would simply remove your knowledge base.

watty wrote: »

Yes, The burning ******s, pitchforks, peasants baying for blood etc.. I'm only posting to try and help people. I've not been told to post nor paid for it.

As I said before the last time this issue came up (when I spoke my views on speed too), I begin to wonder why I bother.

The Sponge Bob in particular warned me long ago not to talk about other people's products, but there is so little Informed opinion and explination, I can't resist commenting. I'm not posting because I work in Digiweb. I work in Digiweb because I know about this stuff, dating back to 1971 Aer Lingus Irish Young Scientist when RTE Judge said "Of course we will never have Laser communication or Digital TV". No prizes for guessing what my purely paper proposals were.

(For those not aware, all fibre uses lasers, and Digital Video Editing used some years before Digital TV to Home appeared).

Problem is Watty you've developed this air of never been wrong. Though on occasion I've found your comments about other provider's technology to be simply incorrect or possibly correct but based on little substance or only correct in a specific scenario. You don't present reasons for your conclusions you merely state them as fact without having to substantiate them. As a result when you post something wrong or simply negative it seems biased because you pretty much never offer supporting evidence.

watty

Sometimes I'm wrong.

But on technology can you find 10 absolutely incorrect explanations (Correct in a specific Scenario is correct) in either 12,000 posts or just the technical ones on VOIP, Broadband, ISDN, Dialup, Satellite, Cable, MMDS, DTT, CB and Amateur Radio?

Are we going to start hounding people on basis of incorrect posts? If so you are starting at wrong end.

How many people have disclaimers in their sigs saying this could be rubbish?

It's a Forum. If I consistently spouted Bilge water, I'd get warned or banned. Neither has happened. Also anyone that takes what is on a Forum as Gospel without a reality check has a bigger problem.


On what percentage of occasions (or indeed how many) have I posted inaccurate/wrong/misleading about other vendors Internet Techs? Who are the qualified persons or vendors that have complained?

If people want evidence it's only a Google away.

paulm17781

Watty, all people are asking is you place something like "Systems tester* - Digiweb" in your sig so people know your advice, correct or not, is coming from a Digiweb employee. Rather than do this, you leave an ambiguous comment there and won't make it clear for all. This to me wreaks of a bias you are aware of and want to keep your employer hidden so you still seem like just an informed poster and not an employee who may have an agenda.


* I don't know what you actually do.