Some clearence on the reloading issue???

Rovi

I think we're looking at another example of The Powers That Be (the DOJ in this case) getting spooky over something they don't know or understand.
Reloading is carried on in ordinary domestic homes all over the world without any significant (as far as I can see) added risk to the reloader, others in the home, or their neighbours.

I'm open to correction on this, but am I right in thinking that reloading has been perfectly acceptable and available in Northern Ireland all through 'The Troubles'?
Were there any instances of cartridge propellent being used there/then for the manufacture of IEDs or the like?
It's even still available to shooters in the rest of the U.K. for feck's sake, the ultimate Nanny State where anything to do with firearms must be heavily regulated or banned 'for the sake of the children'.

I have no objection to doing some sort of 'Reloading Safety Course' provided one can be found that's acceptable to the DOJ, but I share something of Grizzly's concern on the costs of such a course.
I very much like Sikamick's proposal, and I hope that that's the model that becomes the reality.

Sikamick

Basic Metallic Cartridge Reloading Course

Home > Departments > Shooting Standards Department > BASC Training Courses > Basic Metallic Cartridge Reloading Course

Basic Metallic Cartridge Reloading Course

The aim of this course is to equip the candidate with the knowledge, understanding, skills and awareness required to undertake basic metallic cartridge reloading. It is an ideal course aimed at the beginner as an introduction to reloading.

This is a one day course which will provide the novice or less experienced home loader with a sturdy foundation of knowledge. There is no requirement for you to have a Firearms Certificate or your own equipment. Safety, law and technique will be dealt with in a classroom situation, and the practical aspects which will deal with basic equipment and safe techniques for basic reloading.

The course will offer the candidate time to practice what is taught on the course, under supervision.

BASC reloading equipment and ammunition components will be provided on the day for each student.

In the interests of safety you are requested not to bring any ammunition components or reloading equipment with you.

Cost of course £125.00

For Further information and course dates contact Anne Mellows BASC Shooting Standards 01244 573018
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Sikamick:

I would hope that Irish shooting clubs that are interested in reloading could afford to send at least two of their members to do this course. I know that this is not an instructors course but it is a start.

I will e-mail the BASC and inquire into advanced/instructors courses and post reply.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

It more than likely that only some targets shooters/hunters will do it.

I wonder what the statistics are in the USA for shooters/hunters that reload as against the total number of known shooters /hunters in the country. I think in the over all count reloaders will be marginal.

I believe that's a correct assessment of the situation Sikamick. Long range target shooters, Gallery rifle and some centre fire pistol would be the norm. When you look at the various disciplines out there, the ISSF ones don't require reloading per se because the factory ammunition is about the best there is for the distances shot.

That doesn't mean we're not in favour of reloading. Most of the poeple who shoot our disciplines also shoot other disciplines for which reloading is important. In addition, the information learned is very useful in uderstanding ballistics and the way a bullet behaves depending on weight, charge and range conditions.

Strangely enough, the comment about 'super loads' is actually the opposite to what most reloaders require. Generally a slower round is required rather than the higher velocity rounds that most manufacturers provide for centre fire firearms. I remember shooting pistol in Bisley the year before the ban came in and all of the reloaded rounds I fired were very slow indeed, I was told they were laoded for the short 10m to 15m ranges.

The only 'super loads' I saw were being used by a chap shooting what was then called 'free pistol' - a tungsten weighted, 12" barrelled, bolt action, scoped pistol in 7.62mm for 1000 yards. The owner was hitting the bull at that distance from a benchrested position and had loaded the rounds to keep them supersonic to the target.

If you could reload .22 rimfire rounds accurately, I for one would be working towards a slightly heavier bullet weight than the standard 40 grain one that seems to be the accepted norm as well as experimenting with slower speeds to reduce the affect of wind.

Vegeta

Fcuk me what a load of me bollox

A pratice allowed with pratically no restrictions for shooters in the North and England is going to suddenly become dangerous here in the good old Republic. :rolleyes:

Why oh why should we need a course. The people currently reloading here didn't and as far as I can tell they are still alive. Sure courses are handy for anyone who wants one but they should not be forced upon us. Anyone who may hurt themselves reloading will do so in an accident. Courses and tests do not prevent accidents.

Courses can give a false sense of security, the "But my instructor said this was safe" syndrome.

On the other hand if a cheap easily accesible course was all it took to ease the minds of the DoJ then it aint that bad.

Typical government sh1te, threat of serial legislation for anything they don't understand.

I hope the FCP are all over this like a rash.

Gunter Mauser

Vegeta, take your point but if that published statement by the chairman of the FCP is anything to go by, then the sport has to more to do to get the correct info out for all to see whats what, how exactly this practice takes place and what exactly is involved.

It is understandable from the authorties point of view that they have one
less worry to think about so why bother. They could just look the other
way and let things carry on as they are with a nod and a wink;) A sure
the really dedicated will reload up north.

We store petrol in the garage, this practice probably needs a license if
the law was to be followed for this practice but the obvious is the norm
5 liters filled at the petrol station is not going to have a cert issued
every time someone wants to cut the grass.:eek:

The FCP would be well served to get some guest speakers who can
officially speak from experience rather than have indirect comment
like we are having here as a means of trying to educate all concerned
I do hope Garrett is aware a lot of the statement he published is in
reality very wide of the mark and does give a distorted view of the
true facts.

Sikamick

Vegeta wrote: »

Fcuk me what a load of me bollox

A pratice allowed with pratically no restrictions for shooters in the North and England is going to suddenly become dangerous here in the good old Republic. :rolleyes:

Why oh why should we need a course. The people currently reloading here didn't and as far as I can tell they are still alive. Sure courses are handy for anyone who wants one but they should not be forced upon us. Anyone who may hurt themselves reloading will do so in an accident. Courses and tests do not prevent accidents.

Courses can give a false sense of security, the "But my instructor said this was safe" syndrome.

On the other hand if a cheap easily accesible course was all it took to ease the minds of the DoJ then it aint that bad.

Typical government sh1te, threat of serial legislation for anything they don't understand.

I hope the FCP are all over this like a rash.

_________________________________________________________________

The courses I am suggesting would be self regulation within the sport and not require any nanny type course run by the powers that be.

It is important the we let the powers that be see we are capable of control and standards within the sport not a willie nilly attitude to everything in it. Table banging and shouting our rights wont get us any where.

As for your statement re people that are already reloading, I don't think they just got the equipment and started reloading.

I think you will find that they got some sort of training and this is to their credit.

If you know anything about reloading you will understand you have to have training i.e. basic knowledge on how to use measuring tools for sizing i.e. calipers- micrometers, scales for weighing, basic knowledge in ballistics and not be the type of person that will rush into something and end up injuring himself or somebody else.

Vegeta

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

The courses I am suggesting would be self regulation within the sport and not require any nanny type course run by the powers that be.

It is important the we let the powers that be see we are capable of control and standards within the sport not a willie nilly attitude to everything in it. Table banging and shouting our rights wont get us any where.

Bending over and presenting for the DoJ isn't the best approach either.

Who's table banging, stating the situation bluntly is hardly table banging.

Lets face it if the North of all places can reload without many restrictions then why should people in the Republic have to take a safety course.

To be honest Sika, any course legally needed to reload is a course too many. That legacy may live for the next 30 years. If reloading does become common place then why bother continuing with the course when there will be plenty of mentors there to learn from.

Again having courses available is a good thing, everyone can always learn something new. Allowing them to become a legal requirement though is defintely not a good idea.

So if I was on the FCP I would not be talking about safety courses just yet. The logic put forward by the DoJ is flawed to say the least so the FCP should be countering that first.

Sure by all means have researched the possibility of running a course if it comes to it.

As for your statement re people that are already reloading, I don't think they just got the equipment and started reloading.

I never implied they did, yet somehow they manage to do it. Maybe the training was from a book, a dvd, someone who they know, a fellow range member.

If you know anything about reloading you will understand you have to have training i.e. basic kknowledge o how to use measuring tools for sizing i.e. calipers- micrometers, scales for weighing, basic knowledge in ballistics and not be the type of person that will rush into something and end up injuring yourself or somebody else.

Yes clearly a person does not wake up with the knowledge of how to reload. There are more ways to skin a cat though

Persoanlly I would prefer to have a mentor or friend I could ring any time to ask a question than go on a one day course where I get to reload a few rounds and sit through a few lectures.

Safety courses and tests do not guarantee safety after all, some people will have other means of learning how to reload.

So forcing everyone who wants to reload to go on a course is a bit unfair if you ask me.

The DoJ have not said they'd allow reloading if the people wanting to reload sit on a course (or have they).

So why put such a restriction on ourselves just yet?

Grizzly 45

Sikamick,
as I said previously,my cousin in Germany did the course to German standards.It took SIX MONTHS of weekends!! When he showed me how to reload,it was all compunded down into a 6hour afternoon session. I would rather keep this course on the side of simplicity than complex.this should be done and dusted within a Saturday.Not a whole bunch of Saturdays.

As for training on the 1st Gen Irish reloaders,where would they have got the training in the 80s Ireland??More than likely from books or the UK.Sure as Hell wouldn't have got it here tho.

Somone asked how many reloaders there are in the US.
Somthing like +/- 50 million.

Sparks

To be fair Grizzly, the majority of safety training on any course on any activity is not about "how to do it", it's about "don't try this, because then this happens and you get hurt", or "if you see this happening, stop it; if you see this happening, make sure you don't stop running until you're at least a hundred yards away". By comparison, "how to do it" is always a very short bit of the course indeed.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair Grizzly, the majority of safety training on any course on any activity is not about "how to do it", it's about "don't try this, because then this happens and you get hurt", or "if you see this happening, stop it; if you see this happening, make sure you don't stop running until you're at least a hundred yards away". By comparison, "how to do it" is always a very short bit of the course indeed.

For anyone who thinks safety courses are 'just common sense' they should try and write a safety course some time. It's suddenly very instructive as to how many ways something can be done wrong if you put your mind to it.

Gunter Mauser

Well done fox shooter .243 you have spoken like a true warier. The mysteries of the black arts will now be revealed. Becareful that the DOJ
might want you Debriefed and brought before the panel to explain all.

You could tell them reloading could result in less firearms not more as one
of the benifits of reloading is that you can get more flexibility from the one rifle by being able to choose from a wider selection of reloadable bullets than the commercial factory cartridge.

foxshooter243

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Well done fox shooter .243 you have spoken like a true warier. The mysteries of the black arts will now be revealed. Becareful that the DOJ
might want you Debriefed and brought before the panel to explain all.

You could tell them reloading could result in less firearms not more as one
of the benifits of reloading is that you can get more flexibility from the one rifle by being able to choose from a wider selection of reloadable bullets than the commercial factory cartridge.

thats correct gunther as my 243 now serves as a good varmint rifle by using a 58 grain v max bullet and as a deer rifle by using a 100 grain partition and as target rifle using sierra 85 grain matchkings.:D

Gunter Mauser

Very Fox like 243, now we know why you came out of the closet,:cool:to brag about how you do it all with your 243 because you reload so you
don't need an arsenal of rifles in the rack, the just one cheapskate method of shooting, that must be the Donegal in you!:mad:

Grizzly 45

You proved my point about this being learnable by reading up on it,following instructions and not being a total klutz [Not that you are in anyway..:)]. If you can operate a chainsaw,or a lawn mower you can reload safley too.
PS for sheer terrifying/exhilarating sensation try a first cross country solo flight as pilot in command.:eek:.After that everything I have done is pretty tame.Apart from shooting of course.:D

ranger4

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

If all the facts are offered to this man in a well crafted document that
clearly show up some of the misconceptions about what exactly is involved in the process of reloading, a lot of the scandalmongers who don't know what exactly is involved but think they do will get an education that debugs the myths once and for all.:)

+11.

Traumadoc

I learnt to reload from a video produced by one of the press mafacturers ( I reloaded from 2001- 2006 until I returned to Ireland) perhaps someone could get a video to this guy to show him what is involved.

Vegeta

Traumadoc wrote: »

I learnt to reload from a video produced by one of the press mafacturers ( I reloaded from 2001- 2006 until I returned to Ireland) perhaps someone could get a video to this guy to show him what is involved.

Good idea

foxshooter243

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You proved my point about this being learnable by reading up on it,following instructions and not being a total klutz [Not that you are in anyway..:)]. If you can operate a chainsaw,or a lawn mower you can reload safley too.
PS for sheer terrifying/exhilarating sensation try a first cross country solo flight as pilot in command.:eek:.After that everything I have done is pretty tame.Apart from shooting of course.:D

now that would really get the old adrenalin glands on overtime:eek:

It wasn't me!

Okay, here's a thought, but as for how this reloading business would go, I was just daydreaming away there, and was thinking, the easiest way to do it would probably be to amend the PC-20 form and the issued firearms certs, allowing you to tick a box stating that you wish to reload, and the cert can then say "To have in his possession at any one time x number of rounds and to reload same" or something to that extent. It would separate the need for a different reloading licence, it could be a factor the Superintendent takes into consideration with the licensing, and can be refused at his discretion without refusing the licence, the same as a specified ammo quantity, and might ease the minds of the Gardai as it could then be calibre specific, being that you could only buy reloading components for the calibre listed on your firearms cert. It's technically open to abuse, as cartridge casings could be necked up or down for different calibres, but that becomes impractical, as you have to have the parent cartridge anyway, and everything is open to abuse to some extent. Just a thought, what does anyone else think about it, or how do others think it should be done?

Gunter Mauser

This would be a very neat way indeed, would it be similar as to how reloading takes place in Northern Ireland. Does this mean you will not have
to pay any extra for an unnecessary seperate reloading license as this is what usually happens here when an opportunity for extra revenue presents itself.:o

It wasn't me!

I don't know, perhaps a small extra charge wouldn't be entirely unreasonable, as there may be some more paper administration to do. I don't see that there could be massive extra costs though. It seems like a workable notion to me anyway, I welcome anyone else's input. Of course, it may well have been discussed before, either within the FCP or elsewhere, but it's a potential suggestion. If it's new material, it might be deemed worth representing to the powers what be.

Sparks

Thing is, the section of the CJA that brings in the reloading licence is already done and passed by the Dail - you'd have a bit of a push to get it dropped before it's commenced and replaced.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is, the section of the CJA that brings in the reloading licence is already done and passed by the Dail - you'd have a bit of a push to get it dropped before it's commenced and replaced.

By ticking the box on a firearms license I hereby apply for a reloading license.

Gardai stamp reloading box if approved

Is there something I am missing.

Sparks

Just the bit where I thought IWM was suggesting we roll the reloading and firearms licences together into one...

Vegeta

Sparks wrote: »

Just the bit where I thought IWM was suggesting we roll the reloading and firearms licences together into one...

Yes but you said

"Thing is, the section of the CJA that brings in the reloading licence is already done and passed by the Dail - you'd have a bit of a push to get it dropped before it's commenced and replaced."

I don't know what getting it dropped implies though but assume you meant that they needed to be seperate.

So I said

Why cant both licenses be on one piece of paper and applied for on the one form?

2 licenses but 1 piece of paper. Stamped in the relevant sections by the Gardai.

Clear as mud??

Sikamick

Dear Mr O’Connor
Unfortunately BASC does not offer reloading courses at present. However, you may like to check with Terry Woods – one of our shotgun coaches in Ireland – who may be able to point you in the right direction. His details are on our website:

http://www.basc.org.uk/media/shotgun_coaches.pdf


Also, the British Deer Society may be able to assist you.


I am sorry I cannot be of further assistance but hope you may find something through these two avenues.



Kind regards

Anne Hubbard

BASC Firearms Co-ordinator

It wasn't me!

To be honest, I hadn't considered the fact that it's already nice and written up. I suppose it becomes less viable then. Though that said, Vegeta does have a point that it could still be a separate licence. The tick the box type system was what I was thinking of when I suggested it, but I was thinking the authorisation would be a part of the firearms certificate format. Does making it specific tot he calibre of firearm you're applying for at the same time make sense Sparks? Seems more reasonable, and potentially a lot less scary for the uninitiated, who could be picturing a potential magazine room of all sorts of calibres, made for rather less than distinguished purposes to order.

Gunter Mauser

Could 2009 be the time to condense the paperwork and print it onto
something the size of the European Pass, colour coded to match
the class of firearm you possess all contained in one neat booklet easy to
carry with all your details inc, along with your reloading details.:)

It wasn't me!

Hmm, reading back, I haven't been extraordinarily clear. Might try outline what I'm thinking of in bullet points.

The application to reload would be a new box to tick on the PC-20 form, stating that you wish to reload for this firearm.

It would be a subsection requiring you to sign off that you are aware of the processes of reloading and are capable of doing so to a safe standard, with any stipulations the Gardai require of you regarding safe storage and the like.

It could entail specifying a certain amount of reloading materiel (powder, brass and bullets - "the materiel required to manufacture x number of rounds" would be how it would be phrased in the documentation, hypothetically), the same way you have to specify the number of rounds you want authorised on the licence.

It could be entirely calibre specific, so that if applying for a .223, you could only purchase component parts to reload a .223, and couldn't purchase 9mm brass or bullets (for instance.

Originally, I intended it to be printed on the firearms cert itself, in a new paragraph, stating that the bearer should have the authority to purchase the materiel to manufacture a given number of rounds in addition to those he could purchase (possibly the section could state "have in his possession x number of rounds either purchased or manufactured"). This seems unworkable however.

Just like specifying a number of rounds on the form, this application as part of the PC-20 could be accepted or denied by the Superintendent. On further thinking, perhaps reloading applications could be treated like restricted firearms applications and handled by a delegate of the commissioner? How would people feel about that? It would mean a specific type of storage requirement and process and would possibly make things easier for all concerned, while keeping costs down.

On re-reading that, it's still not perfectly clear, but ah, you'll have some idea what I'm getting at by now I imagine.

Sikamick

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Could 2009 be the time to condense the paperwork and print it onto
something the size of the European Pass, colour coded to match
the class of firearm you possess all contained in one neat booklet easy to
carry with all your details inc, along with your reloading details.:)

_________________________________________________________________

Good idea one book each page colour coded, rifle-pistol-shotgun-reloading.

And the beauty of it, the printers that produce the european passport
already have the template just change the text. And valid for three years.:):):)