Slap on the wrist

Jack B. Badd

This still seems odd even as I'm typing it, but today I received a slap on the wrist (actually the back of my hand) at work - I'm speaking literally, not figuratively.
My manager was telling me how to make a change to a spreadsheet we were working on and I when I didn't understand after he had explained a couple of times, he grabbed my arm and slapped me on the back of my hand and then made the change himself. It didn't hurt or anything, it was just a tap, but I was so shocked at the inappropriateness of it that my initial reaction was to laugh it off. The thing is, when I thought about it afterwards it didn't seem all that funny. It was in the middle of an open office and a good few people saw it. Now I'm feeling somewhat humiliated and I'm left wondering how much respect my boss actually has for me (he apologised straight away but I think that was more out of shock at his own actions than anything). Hell, I felt like a little kid being chastised by my father
Even though I laughed it off at the time, I'm planning to draft an email explaining that I feel it was inappropriate and that he should expect a formal complaint if a similar situation were to ever happen again.

Has anyone had similar experiences or advise on this matter?

KTRIC

Completely inappropriate, send that letter to his boss and copy HR on it.

cowzerp

Chillax!!

DetectivFoxtrot

KTRIC wrote: »

Completely inappropriate, send that letter to his boss and copy HR on it.

Don't do this - this is career suicide!!!!

Yes it was inappropriate and totally wrong but going over his head won't achieve anything good for you. Deal with it with him - I wouldn't draft a mail either, these things are better sorted out face to face imo. Ask can you see him for a minute and explain how the action made you feel and that having now raised it informally with him you don't expect it to happen again. Let him respond and then agree to put it behind you.

By your post it sounds like he was as shocked as you - maybe for a split second he thought he was dealing with one of his kids or something and got frustrated (not that it's right to hit a kid, but as you said, it was more of a tap)

If it were to happen again, which would be higly unlikely if you proceed with the above, only then would I send the mail and cc HR on it

I'm a manager and deal with a lot of office type conflict and the key is:

1) to try and sort it out as informally as possible
2) not let it fester (i.e. deal with the issues instead of being angry about it)
3) only go the formal route (i.e. HR) if you don't get co-operation/agreement

davyjose

If he apologised and seemed shocked at his own actions then leave it. What difference will it make? If he does it again, it's an issue. This country has jumped on the PC bandwagon a bit too eagerly IMO.

SarahSassy

davyjose wrote: »

If he apologised and seemed shocked at his own actions then leave it. What difference will it make? If he does it again, it's an issue. This country has jumped on the PC bandwagon a bit too eagerly IMO.

+1

board om

its not worth ruining your career over. i wouldnt go dragging HR into it. just settle it between yourselves. if you bring HR into it, then the next time you do something wrong, he could bring HR into that. not worth making it formal.

out of interest was it jokingly done, like did he laugh when he was doing it? or was it serious, like did he actually snap and lose his temper for a minute and do it before he realised what he had done?

chris85

Jaysus OP are we all gone so bad that everything is done by the book. If you aint happy say it to his face like a loyal worker would do and not grass him up for a little thing which HR may be forced to escalate as they all go by the book unfortunately as well.

Have a chat with the manager and leave it there

Jack B. Badd

Just to clarify, I wasn't going to send anything to HR or go over his head about this. I'm not out to get him in trouble because as far as I'm concerned he probably just made a mistake and one mistake of this type doesn't warrant a formal complaint imo.
Nonetheless, I want to let him know that I'm not happy with that kind of inappropriate action and won't accept it in the future. I'd prefer to do this by email because it lets me compose my thoughts and it gives me a record of any discussion on the matter if something similar should happen again.

board om, he seemed serious when he did it, like he had momentarily lost his temper, and then apologised.

humanji

In fairness, I'd say you're better off forgetting it. I had a boss who'd do that when people got stuff wrong. It was just a quirk. If this really bothers you, just tell him face to face. Writing an email will just make things more awkward. Plus if any of your other collegues get wind of it, they'll probably think less of you and strain relations in the office.

He did apologise for it, so I'm curious what you want from this? Do you want him to apologise again? You said he seemed shocked when he did it, so it's a safe bet he won't do it again. You really should just laugh it off.

davyjose

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

a formal complaint imo.
Nonetheless, I want to let him know that I'm not happy with that kind of inappropriate action and won't accept it in the future.

you should have told him at the time then - there's no real way of going about it now without looking like a dick.

colly10

I think your over reacting tbh, he sound like a fairly reasonable boss, most bosses get a little frustrated if your not getting it after they've explained it more than once (you are being paid for knowing how to do your job).
He's not bullying you, id let it slide and if something happens again then consider it an issue. It's up to you what you decide to do but you must be needlessly making an enemy for yourself

Fysh

I'm surprised at the way so many people have jumped to the defence of someone whose behaviour sounds inappropriate although not necessarily malicious. Regardless of whether the slap was intentional, a manager's job involves both some amount of training his staff on how to do their job and maintaining a professional relationship with his staff.

Physically hitting someone in frustration, regardless of the manner of doing so or the area struck, is not in any way professional and the only way I can think of it being even vaguely acceptable would be if you were on particularly good terms with your boss and it was done in a matey jocular way, which does not sound like the case here. (Colly10, you can say what you like about being paid to know how to do your job - someone providing instruction on how to do said job is paid to teach you how to do it, so you can't just blame the pupil if they don't immediately grasp what the teacher's trying to explain. It's not like training is a simple thing that anyone can do at the drop of a hat...)

It's worth noting as well that dealing with things informally is all well and good where the person involved accepts their mistake, but when it's a supervisor who is probably the first point of contact for any complaints you might have, it's not so simple. Emailing your concern to your supervisor initially sounds like the best way to go, if you're satisfied with his response you can leave it at that, and if not at least you'll have some evidence to take to HR that you raised it with him but weren't happy with the response...

Talliesin

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

advise on this matter?

If the jobmarket for your skills is in your favour, hand in your notice tomorrow explaining that you are leaving due to assault, harassment, bullying and deliberate public humiliation.

If the jobmarket for your skils is not in your favour, write a letter (on paper, not email and keep a copy) demanding that they take actions to prevent further assault, harassment, bully and deliberate public humiliation.

jesus_thats_gre

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

when I didn't understand after he had explained a couple of times, he grabbed my arm and slapped me on the back of my hand and then made the change himself.

Maybe he wasn't sure how to deal with you incapable of understanding what he said. Would it has been less embarrassing for him to keep explaining something that you couldn't understand in front of the whole office?

This is a nothing issue imo.

colly10

Fysh wrote: »

maintaining a professional relationship with his staff.

While I wouldn't accept bullying from anyone i'd rather work with a boss who's a little less on edge. Professionalism works both ways and when you work with a boss who's a little more informal with staff you know that he's probably someone who won't screw you over either when you take a small step out of line

WEST

Talliesin I really hope you are been sarcastic!

challengemaster

chris85 wrote: »

Jaysus OP are we all gone so bad that everything is done by the book. If you aint happy say it to his face like a loyal worker would do and not grass him up for a little thing which HR may be forced to escalate as they all go by the book unfortunately as well.

Have a chat with the manager and leave it there

Why is it that doing things the right way such a bad thing?

Fysh - you've saved me typing. well said

colly10

challengemaster wrote: »

Why is it that doing things the right way such a bad thing?

I'll give ye an example of why I feel that going totally by the book isn't always the best option -

Person A - Comes in 20 minutes late 1 day per week
Person B - Always on time but only covers around half the work of person A
Boss A - Stickler for the rules, professional at all times
Boss B - More laid back/informal

Boss A and B will probably treat person B similarly, do little about it while not exactly putting them up for promotion.

Boss A will be happy with person A while probably mentioning their hours if they slide.
Boss B will probably fire person A even though person A is a better employee than person B

I'd rather work for a boss that uses thier head rather than doing everything straight by the rules although I know a good few would disagree with me on this one

Sorry for the long winded explaination

The Sweeper

colly, how is person A a stickler for the rules if they come in 20 minutes late...?

Anyway - OP, go home and sleep on this before you respond to it. Working relationships are weird - you become familiar with someone and get to know them, but you can't BE familiar with them. I had a sales guy in a company I worked in walk past me one day and he did this weird little skidding dance in front of me and his cheeks flamed up.

Straight away I went 'Eh? What the hell was that?'

I had a singlet on over my shirt. We were good mates at work, and basically on the way past me he got this impulse to do something he does to his sister when she's wearing a shirt with a cardigan or a singlet over it - pull out the bottom of the overgarment and tickle her tummy (over the shirt, mind, but under the top) while making "arblearblearblearble" noises. He had actually started to reach for me before his brain went "DEAR JESUS MAN, WHAT ARE YOU DOING???? THIS IS WORK!!!!" hence the bizarre little on the spot dance.

Talliesin

WEST wrote: »

Talliesin I really hope you are been sarcastic!

The second case might not be practical depending on the workplace, but why the hell would anybody put up with something like that if the could get a job elsewhere?

(Unless of course the OP knew the guy well and jokingly using mild physical punishment was appropriate to their out-of-office relationship, in which case they should just say he shouldn't behave like that in the office, but if that was the case I imagine the OP would have said so).

JC 2K3

Talliesin wrote: »

The second case might not be practical depending on the workplace, but why the hell would anybody put up with something like that if the could get a job elsewhere?

Because it seems like it was a one off incident where the boss made a mistake. It's not like his work is hell or anything. What if he likes where he works and doesn't want to move elsewhere?

Miss Fluff

DetectivFoxtrot wrote: »

Don't do this - this is career suicide!!!!

Yes it was inappropriate and totally wrong but going over his head won't achieve anything good for you. Deal with it with him - I wouldn't draft a mail either, these things are better sorted out face to face imo. Ask can you see him for a minute and explain how the action made you feel and that having now raised it informally with him you don't expect it to happen again. Let him respond and then agree to put it behind you.

By your post it sounds like he was as shocked as you - maybe for a split second he thought he was dealing with one of his kids or something and got frustrated (not that it's right to hit a kid, but as you said, it was more of a tap)

If it were to happen again, which would be higly unlikely if you proceed with the above, only then would I send the mail and cc HR on it

I'm a manager and deal with a lot of office type conflict and the key is:

1) to try and sort it out as informally as possible
2) not let it fester (i.e. deal with the issues instead of being angry about it)
3) only go the formal route (i.e. HR) if you don't get co-operation/agreement

I'm a manager also and the above is the best advice on the thread OP. Fundamentally it depends whether you are an ambulance chaser or not and what exactly you hope taking this further will achieve.

Jack B. Badd

I don't want to take this further than my boss if I can help it. However I do want to communicate how humiliating I found the incident. When I didn't understand what he said, he could have reworded his explanation or just asked me to move aside so he could show me, instead he chose to reprimand me as if I were a bold child. And even if I were the most stupid employee on the planet (which I'm not), I have a right to better treatment.
Part of my issue is that I'm a woman working in a male dominated environment and there is a definite undercurrent of sexism. I don't believe that he would have ever acted with one of the guys on the team (even the ones he's friendly with). I don't want to turn this into a gender issue but I do want him to know that reprimanding me in front of a group of men (who, by their comments about women, clearly don't think that women are on the same level as them) is damaging to me and my position in workplace.

Fysh

Miss Fluff wrote: »

I'm a manager also and the above is the best advice on the thread OP. Fundamentally it depends whether you are an ambulance chaser or not and what exactly you hope taking this further will achieve.

"Ambulance chaser"? That's hardly a fair comparison. Were I in the OP's position, I would at the very least be putting my concerns in writing to the supervisor in question. It's not about taking it further, it's about formally registering that this behaviour is not acceptable. It doesn't have to go any further than the letter/email, but someone responsible for managing a team has to understand that interpersonal relationships are a delicate thing and understanding when a transgression has been made, and making necessary changes to avoid a repetition of it, is a part of that.

Accusing someone of being an ambulance chaser for not putting up with something that could turn out to be the first of several instances of workplace bullying is hardly good advice, particularly given how hard it can be to deal with workplace bullying in the first place.

cowzerp

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Part of my issue is that I'm a woman working in a male dominated environment and there is a definite undercurrent of sexism. I don't believe that he would have ever acted with one of the guys on the team (even the ones he's friendly with). I don't want to turn this into a gender issue but I do want him to know that reprimanding me in front of a group of men (who, by their comments about women, clearly don't think that women are on the same level as them) is damaging to me and my position in workplace.

Men and women are not the same! The men would probably of slapped his hand back and it would of been a funny situation, i think your been over sensitive, its not like he slapped your bottom, then i'd say you have a genuine issue! if you really want to, tell him to his face that you dont want a repeat performance(end of) he already apologised so should not need to over and over.

Marksie

cowzerp wrote: »

Men and women are not the same! The men would probably of slapped his hand back and it would of been a funny situation, i think your been over sensitive, its not like he slapped your bottom, then i'd say you have a genuine issue! if you really want to, tell him to his face that you dont want a repeat performance(end of) he already apologised so should not need to over and over.

THis is regardless of gender. Like Miss Fluff i am a manager and the importance of personal/professional boundaries is important.

In slapping the wrist, the manager overstepped the mark, but THEY did realise it and made an apology.

So OP there is no need to make an official complaint. If you want to take it further, then the best way is to explain how you feel without making therats "if it happens again...etc."
I am pretty sure from what you have said that your manager realises this that it was innappropriate.

Cowzerp: if someone came to me with the excuse you have given here, it would not be a defense. Because you see it as overreaction, they might not and may feel that physical contact contravenes their right to dignity at work.

milkerman

I definitely would not go the formal written complaint route or even the 'chat' with your manager.
Try this. Next time your boss has to show you something just say ' I hope you wont hit me if I dont understand' and leave it at that. He will probably be quite red-faced particularly if there are other people around.
The PC thing has gotten out of hand. The best manager I ever had used to threaten to kill me at least once a week and would call me allsorts if I was being thick. He was also very protective of his staff and our wellbeing was always an issue for him. A complex character, but a good person nonetheless and a great guy to work for.

mountain

maybe you should learn how to do your job properly...

Marksie

mountain wrote: »

maybe you should learn how to do your job properly...

And maybe you should read the charter on off topic unhelpful posting.
Continued posting in such a fashion will result in a ban

Drift

I'd be inclined to think along the same lines as DetectivFoxtrot. The fact that he appeared to be shocked by his own behaviour and that he apologised immediately would make me think that maybe he momentarily forgot where he was and beahved as he would in a similar situation elsewhere. For example maybe he teaches his wife how to do computer stuff at home in a situation where a tap on the back of the hand may be seen as a playful and possibly even flirty action. Then he's there showing you something and his mind is on a few things at once so he does what he might do at home with his wife/gf/children without thinking.

In a weird way it may indicate that he's quite comfortable in your presence similar to Minesajackdaniels ridiculously uncomfortable yet highly amusing "arblearblearblearble" situation.

I think what you should do is approach him when he's alone pretty soon (today or monday) and just explain that you feel very uncomfortable about what happened earlier. From what you've described of his immediate remorse when he did it I've a feeling he will be falling over himself to apologise.

6th

Definately dont let it go.

Drift

Edit: Was answering 6th who spotted his mistake as I posted.

Feelgood

How are you sure that he wasn't just flirting with you?. I know even that probably isn't appropriate in the given context either though it could of also been down to the fact that he might have a soft spot for you?.

LaVidaLoca

how litigious have we become.

It was a painless slap on the wrist. If you didnt give him a look there and then, forget about it.

Wing Walker

Agree with a lot of the comments here. Discuss the matter further with him if you have to. Make your displeasure known to him. Other than that, let things be unless it happens again. THEN you can take matters further.

He might like you though. Us guys do stupid things like this when we like someone!

Only my opinion though.

Good luck with it.

LaVidaLoca

Like Miss Fluff i am a manager and the importance of personal/professional boundaries is important

This is Ireland!! Have we so totally lost our sense of who we are that we have to start talking and living like humourless corporate robots, with a lawyer on our shoulder?

Wurly

That is F*cking appaling behaviour. How dare he - what a total tool.

You need to either talk to him face to face about it or email him about it. Id choose the latter as I would find the face to face thing too uncomfortable and that way you have a paper trail. He needs to know that it is not acceptable and that it makes you uncomfortable. He should not get away with this.

You do not touch/scold someone like that in a workplace environment. I dont care if he touched your arm, hand, arse, hair - bottom line - its wrong. You are NOT being oversensitive and gender is not even an issue here.

Like you said, you are not some bold child. Its supposed to be a professional workplace.

Some people - seriously, what planet are they on.

Im sorry something so embarassing happened to you. That's rotten OP.:(

board om

seriously guys, up until 15 years ago if you were the boss you could give the company secetary a smack on the ass and complement her on a fine set of ...... emmm...... filing cabinets, without having to worry about being dragged in front of a tribunal. and as a female employee you were just grateful if you didnt get felt up at the xmas party. how times have changed.

Pigletlover

I can't believe some of the responses on this thread. It was a little tap on the wrist and caused the OP no pain. She even laughed about it at the time.

What is going to be achieved by making a complaint, either to her boss or HR (which I know the OP hadn't intended doing, but it was suggested by some posters)? Does the OP want to put herself in a position where her boss and other employees avoid her in case of saying something that could be interpreted as inappropriate and they end up in the middle of a legal action? She should have said something to her boss at the time if she had an issue with it, by bringing it up now she is making an issue out of nothing. If it was to happen again then I could see there being grounds for a complaint, but I'd put it down to being a one off. From the OPs account of her boss's reaction, I think it's safe to assume he won't be doing it again.

Wurly

The fact is it was a knee-jerk reaction and the boss' instinct was to slap, albeit not a painful one.

Reason for talking about it? It made the OP uncomfortable.

END OF!

alexmcred

Grow up and get over it.

He apologised end of.

DetectivFoxtrot

board om wrote: »

seriously guys, up until 15 years ago if you were the boss you could give the company secetary a smack on the ass and complement her on a fine set of ...... emmm...... filing cabinets, without having to worry about being dragged in front of a tribunal. and as a female employee you were just grateful if you didnt get felt up at the xmas party. how times have changed.

I'm sorry but in 1993 you would NOT get away with such behaviour! go again another 15 years!

and btw thank god times have changed!;)

DetectivFoxtrot

milkerman wrote: »

I definitely would not go the formal written complaint route or even the 'chat' with your manager.
Try this. Next time your boss has to show you something just say ' I hope you wont hit me if I dont understand' and leave it at that. He will probably be quite red-faced particularly if there are other people around.
The PC thing has gotten out of hand. The best manager I ever had used to threaten to kill me at least once a week and would call me allsorts if I was being thick. He was also very protective of his staff and our wellbeing was always an issue for him. A complex character, but a good person nonetheless and a great guy to work for.

I think this is a bad idea Milkerman. It could be taken lighthearted or more likely the OPs boss could think that she's starting to get bitchy about the whole thing and not willing to let it go by sneaking in snide comments when the opportunity arises.

Also there's no need to embarrass the boss any further, i think he was genuniely mortified the first time round. He probaby gave himself a boll1cking about it in his own head.....

geminilady

A librarian did that to me too, hope it doesnt become acceptable behaviour. I dont really have any advice to tell you but good luck anyway, could he just tap people in his nature? maybe he cant really express himself

Marksie

Pigletlover wrote: »

If it was to happen again then I could see there being grounds for a complaint, but I'd put it down to being a one off.

Yes if something happens once it is calssed as an "affront to dignity". Repeated behaviour is more serious. Though it depends on the seriousness in the first place.

Though Pigletlover I too believe it was a genuine mistake, for whatever reason.

Now to clarify about "this is Ireland", this was drawn up to protect workers in workplaces.
I have reproduced a section here:

"Definitions

Both bullying and harassment are defined in Irish law, the principle guiding documents being the Health and Safety Authority "Code of Practice on the Prevention of Workplace Bullying"; the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment "Code of Practice Detailing Procedures for Addressing Bullying in the Workplace"; and the Equality Authority publication "Your Right to Dignity at Work". These guidelines formalise an employer's duties under the Health and Safety at Work Act and the Equality Act 2000.

The term bullying is clear enough and reasonably universal. The term harassment, however, is more commonly called inequality or discrimination elsewhere and the Equal Status Act defines nine precise grounds for harassment.

BULLYING is defined as behaviour of a physical, verbal or a psychological nature which is unwanted and unwelcome and which could reasonably be regarded as offensive. The bully, intentionally or unintentionally, misuses the power of position, knowledge or personality to domineer, intimidate or humiliate others.

The following are common but not exclusive examples of bullying behaviour:
Open aggression, threats, shouting abuse or the use of obscenities
Constant humiliation, sneering or ridicule
Unreasonable scrutiny or unreasonable demands
Taking credit for another person's work
Undermining a person's authority
Spreading malicious rumours
HARASSMENT is defined as any act or conduct which is unwanted and unwelcome and which could reasonably be regarded as offensive, humiliating or intimidating on any of the following discriminatory grounds: gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race or membership of the traveller community.

The following are common but not exclusive examples of harassment:
Treating people less favourably or subjecting them to ridicule on any of the nine discrimination grounds
Demeaning and derogatory remarks, name-calling
Isolation, non co-operation or exclusion within the workplace
Unwelcome comments on appearance
Unwarranted criticism of work performance
Undermining the authority of a colleague in the workplace
Production, display or circulation of offensive material

SEXUAL HARASSMENT is defined as unwanted and unwelcome conduct which could reasonably be regarded as sexually, or otherwise on the gender ground, offensive, humiliating or intimidating. Sexual harassment undermines the dignity of the recipient, and adversely affects work or study performance.

The following examples are some of the most common forms of sexual harassment:
Sexually suggestive jokes or comments
Innuendo or jokes about a person�s sexual orientation
Questions or insults about one's private life
Unwelcome sexual attention
Display of offensive material
Leering, offensive gestures or whistling
Threats of, or actual, physical assault
Groping, patting or unnecessary touching
Suggestions that sexual favours may further someone's career, or that refusal may damage it."


Now the above is not intended to be applied in this instance as I am sure the manager is aware of his mistake, his apology tends to comfirm that.

Regardless of what posters think that is the law.

How such incidents are handled are one of two methtods:

Informally and formally.

Informal
Tell the person that you do not like the behaviour
Talk to the persons line supervisor or your line supervisor
Talk to the head of your department
Talk to HR, staff representative or other independent adjudicator

Formal
Make a written complaint
Cooperate with any investiagtion
If you are unsatisfied by the outcome, there may be a right to appeal.

So in the end you can bemoan it all you like and say that for you a slap means nothing and is a joke, for someone else it may not be.

BUT i am clarifying here that in the OP case, the guy was shocked at himself, so as such its a non issue from that front and should in no way involve a formal procedure.

The manager *should* be aware of this and realised his error. especially if you look at the definition of bullying and the word "unintentionally" you will then see the need for the personal/professional boundary

Marksie

I am going to apologise in advance to the mods of work and jobs as i fact there is a subforum newly created for this type of issue.


So i am movng it now

Jack B. Badd

Thanks Marksie, had I realised that there was a Work Problems forum I would have posted there.

In any case, I emailed my manager this morning and explained to him that I had initially laughed it off to cover up my own embarrassment and that I didn't think it was appropriate. I'm don't want to make a formal complaint but I think that similar action in the future would adversely affect our working relationship. As a result, we had a chat and he said he'd take my comments on board which was good.
However, his reaction when I pointed out that he wouldn't have acted in that way with one of the male employees was that he didn't understand what I was saying and he swiftly moved onto another topic without giving me a chance to answer or elaborate. So that, I guess, is that...

nesf

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Thanks Marksie, had I realised that there was a Work Problems forum I would have posted there.

In any case, I emailed my manager this morning and explained to him that I had initially laughed it off to cover up my own embarrassment and that I didn't think it was appropriate. I'm don't want to make a formal complaint but I think that similar action in the future would adversely affect our working relationship. As a result, we had a chat and he said he'd take my comments on board which was good.
However, his reaction when I pointed out that he wouldn't have acted in that way with one of the male employees was that he didn't understand what I was saying and he swiftly moved onto another topic without giving me a chance to answer or elaborate. So that, I guess, is that...

If it happens again complain, if it was a one-off lapse in concentration on his part I wouldn't get worked up over it. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt about it and only decide to create a bit of hassle if it's repeated really.