13 years of irish

KeyLimePie

We're all coming to the end of our education where we have been learning irish for 13 years at least and yet i say very few of us can say much past im good and the sun is splitting the stones

Does anyone else feel cheated or let down by the education system after 13 years that we're unable to converse in our own national tongue

Sure one can argue that we're all just lazy and it's our own fault that we can't speak it but the way we were thought it seems to be all wrong

Think back to first year doing french (cant say wat it was like for german) but we were thought je suis etc we were thought -er,-ir and -re verbs we were thought about masculine and feminine and for the most of us we were engaged in the language, we wanted liked it and we wanted to learn it

Now think back to primary school Irish, all we did was look at pictures of things and say seo e an mhamai no seo e an dhadai and we learned the tenses of the irregular verbs but that's practially all we learnt about in grammar with maybe how to lenite and eclipse the vowels

And then come first year irish, straight away we're given "helpful phrases" which are practially the whole letter and we're still unaware about the correct grammar of the language. I only found out there's 2 sets of regular verbs and masculine and feminine nouns in irish 4 weeks ago when I borrown an irish grammar book from the library

This leads on about how we weren't engaged in the language, there's been loads of attempts to make irish cool or trendy but what we should be doing is just normalising it. How many people today say taim seo so fhrainc agus ta an ghrian ag spladah an gloch(you can tell i'm ordinary) and then come leaving cert irish we're practially dropped in the unknown and we delve into stories and poems as gaeilge

I think i'm straying off the point now but I just find it sad that i'm able to converse in french more than i'm able to speak in irish even though i've been doing it for 13 years

Of course some people may think i'm speaking total **** here so i'm fully open to different opinions on the matter!

The Walsho

KeyLimePie wrote: »

I think i'm straying off the point now but I just find it sad that i'm able to converse in french more than i'm able to speak in irish even though i've been doing it for 13 years

That part I can relate to alright, and I know many people in my school would be the same. However, I think it really depends on your teacher(s). By the end of third year I had a great understanding of Irish, and could write essays without having to learn off phrases and whatnot. Change of teachers and these days I'm learning off basic stuff for the orals. Transition Year can cause you to lose most of the Irish you knew, and come the start of the Leaving Cert course you've got to focus on covering the necessary poems and stories, practising listening, learning pieces for essays etc etc, and there's not much time for learning the grammar rules and all that.

1huge1

Well to be honeat I think its a bad system yes, because its unfair
You say 13years but most of that people from all academic levels are been taught the same irish (basically all primary school students are taight the same irish), they should seperate the ones that would be more capable of doing harder irish then and there
so the people who are good at languages excel while the people who are better at say maths etc dont have to be dragged down and wait until the junior cert to have a change to change level

iFight

Is it true that from 2014 50% of the LC will be the Oral? Heard that somewhere.

PurpleFistMixer

I used to think this, in fourth year or so. My french was a lot better than my Irish (well fourth year fixed that alright, lost all my french), I thought it was terrible, I wanted to drop to pass and lose the whole stress of it all. Then I realised that I like the language too much to give up on it, I decided I wanted to be fluent, and now my Irish is much better than my French.

I'm much more confident in my ability to converse in Irish than in French. Even though french is pretty similar to English in syntax and vocabulary, I feel Irish is much more familiar to me, and this is a result, I think, of having learned it for so long. Learning those useful phrases which become ingrained in you, as opposed to knowing grammar and using it to translate directly from English, grammatically correct, yes, but somehow lacking.

That said, I feel terribly let down by my Irish grammar. The last Irish grammar we did in school was fourth year, maybe the start of fifth year. My class haven't done the tuiseal ginideach and I doubt we will. I only know (what little) it from having gone to Irish college and having a deadly teacher.

I talk to Americans who've been learning Irish for considerably less time than me, yet their grammar far surpasses mine. It's a terrible shame, but I think it's just not a priority on the LC course. We spend more time doing all that literature. It's mad when you think how little individual sections are worth in comparison to the essay. (We've been reading a Thig ná Tit orm for months now, admittedly with interruptions, but still, it's worth what, 35 marks?)

Before I start waffling altogether, though, I'll get to the point.
Yes, the system of teaching Irish is wrong. Emphasis should be on speaking it like a living language, we should be able to, and should want to, use it in our daily lives. I'm not sure if this is something that's just confined to schools though, society in general needs to have a bit of a shift in mindset, but school is certainly a good place to start.

However, it is possible to learn Irish with the current system, if you want to. Maybe I'm a bad example to use because I love the Irish language and go out of my way to use it/learn it, but nobody in my family speaks it, I've never been to a gaelscoil. I've only been to the gaeltacht once, and it's not like I've been rolling around in Irish for all my life, but I'm confident in my level.
People seem to say it a lot, "Oh I've been learning Irish for so long but I can't speak a word", and I wonder how much of that is down to this bizarre mental block so many people have to learning their own country's language.

KeyLimePie

Well to be totally honest with you, I really only started caring about irish in the past year or so when i started getting not good but better at it but our irish teacher is absolute ****, and i'm not one to spew crap about random teachers cause i dislike them

Recently he said to us "oh that's everything ye need for the oral except for the lotto question but that needs the conditional tense and it'll just confuse u so just say ba mhaith lion an carr nua" first of all it's OFFENSIVE to our intelligence and second of all it's pure laziness and third of all! it's wrong cause it should be ba mhaith liom an carr nua a ail

He REFUSES to teach us the conditonal or how to say IF!! It's a shame, i also know for a fact that the honours teachers mocks my class all the time (well we were watching Aifric today with the oral in wat 4 days)

After this whole leaving cert business is over, i'm gonna apply for some classes based on the teg and take the exams right till i'm adavanced No idea wat im talking about! Feichfeadh anseo http://www.teg.ie/

PurpleFistMixer

My class is always asking to watch Aifric, and we're honours. Nothing wrong with dossing off... >.>

The standard gap between Ordinary level and Higher level really needs to be addressed, too. It seems if you do higher level, they almost expect fluency, and if you do ordinary level they think you can't speak a word.

irish_boy90

I am the opposite to you I guess

I normally fail my written irish. (got 40% in my mock)
But I have been to the Gealtach 6 times (not the english summer camp ones.)

I think the written part is way too hard. I can't write about poems in english never mind irish (and really you have to learn off every answer)

The oral exam is pretty handy in fairness (managed to get 83 in my mock, not a word of it learned)

I think it should be geared more to speaking irish, Than a paper one or an honers english exam.

JC 2K3

KeyLimePie wrote: »

Think back to first year doing french (cant say wat it was like for german) but we were thought je suis etc we were thought -er,-ir and -re verbs we were thought about masculine and feminine and for the most of us we were engaged in the language, we wanted liked it and we wanted to learn it

Fúck no, I fúcking HATED French (despite not being too bad at it).


Having gone to an Irish speaking secondary school, I can't relate at all to what students in English speaking schools must have gone through. It really sounds awful. Do you really do NO grammar?

What really frustrates and saddens me is that coming from an English speaking Primary school, I was fluent after 3/4 months of immersion in the language. My grammar mightn't have been the best(though tbh, people coming from certain Gaelscoileanna have TERRIBLE grammar), but I could write comprehendable answers to science, history, geography, business studies etc. questions and I could understand what was being taught in every class. Fluency isn't hard to achieve, but since the JC has no real oral section and both the JC and LC have too high a standard for most Irish speakers, many teachers seem to resort to getting students to rote learn essays etc., an utterly pointless exercise if someone wants to attain any sort of proficiency in the language.

gaeilgegrinds

I find it so disappointing to read this. I teach all sorts of levels of Irish but they can all at least speak it, some of their spelling may be questionable but I concentrate predominately on the spoken language. Best of luck to all of ye in your exams, chin up!

KnifeWRENCH

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Do you really do NO grammar?

You do a little bit of verbs at HL, but we never knew if words were masculine or feminine.
If you do OL you're considered thick and apparently not worthy of learning Na Briathra Neamhrialta (I spelt that wrong, didn't I?:rolleyes:)
I know the OP's teacher, and yeah he's not exactly the most dynamic of teachers!!

JC 2K3 wrote:

Fluency isn't hard to achieve, but since the JC has no real oral section and both the JC and LC have too high a standard for most Irish speakers, many teachers seem to resort to getting students to rote learn essays etc., an utterly pointless exercise if someone wants to attain any sort of proficiency in the language.

I got an A1 in HL Irish. And while I was quite good at Irish in school, I would never have been anyway fluent. And since leaving school,Irish has not been anyway relevant to me,so I've pretty much forgotten it all. Which is a shame:o
At LEavingCert, the system rewards students that work hard at learning stuff off, not students who know the language.
If a fluent Irish speaker doesn't read the relentlessly dull Poetry and Prose, and doesn't learn off like a BILLION essays, they're not gonna do well in the exam.
For my exam, I learnt just enough conversational Irish to get me through one oral. Then I completely forgot about the spoken language and spent most of my time learning crap like Uirchill an Bloody Chreagain!!
So yeah, the system is definetly flawed in that it doesn't teach you fluent Irish , it teaches you how to do one exam. And the system is somewhat unfair, because it can reward people who are just able to learn lotsa stuff off and regurgitate it.
Fortunately, I was one of those people who benefitted!!:o

KeyLimePie

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Do you really do NO grammar?

Well at ordinary not one bit, i asked my teacher about it today and he said that there was no point in teaching it because it's not on the course and it doesnt matter in ordinary level anyways
And my friend who's in honours told me that they had one class ever on grammar and it was the conditional tense and that was it!

I think that the way we teach Irish needs a maaaajor overhaul

thatone!

I feel completely cheated by the system. Look at Des Bishop he can learn Irish in 13 months because he was taught correctly

conzy

Go to an Irish school tbh...

14 years of all irish fun

eoinalmighty

The problem is the teachers are incompetent and afraid to teach ( In my school at least!) In 3rd year I spent 3 months asking our teacher to do an modh conoilleach with us and eventually she told me to learn it myself but I wouldn't need it so I did and I got an A and I did use it!

Now its 6th year And I've spent months begging our teacher to do the tuisce ginideach with us because I'm sick of losing marks left right and centre because of my ignorance to the biggest thing that separates Irish from romantic and Germanic languages. But it's way too big for me to tackle on my own!

bUILDERtHEbOB

I'm fluent, ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.

KeyLimePie

eoinalmighty wrote: »

Now its 6th year And I've spent months begging our teacher to do the tuisce ginideach with us because I'm sick of losing marks left right and centre because of my ignorance to the biggest thing that separates Irish from romantic and Germanic languages. But it's way too big for me to tackle on my own!

What's the tuisce ginideach? =o What's the genetive case for that matter

bUILDERtHEbOB wrote: »

I'm fluent, ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.

What's sound barrier as ghaelige?

Ino112

lmfao, I've done the tuisce ginideach and tusice íolra in 3rd year! We revised it briefly this year.

But yes I agree that something is messed up with the way Irish is used after leaving cert. Part of the reason I've chosen to do my course, is to incorparate irish into my studies, so it doesn't seem like such a waste! :P

Konata

eoinalmighty wrote: »

Now its 6th year And I've spent months begging our teacher to do the tuisce ginideach with us because I'm sick of losing marks left right and centre because of my ignorance to the biggest thing that separates Irish from romantic and Germanic languages. But it's way too big for me to tackle on my own!

What is it with the reluctance of Irish teachers to teach the Tuiseal Ginideach? I've had several Irish teachers since 1st year and NONE of them have thought it to us, despite promising that they would "soon" :mad:

Personally I think that there should be way more emphasis on the spoken language. That's the important part, not the bloody Stair na Gaeilge and Prós/Filíocht etc. We spend all our time in class focusing on the written paper because there is simply so much to cover. Thus the spoken language gets neglected. None of us spoke a word of Irish in class before the last month or so. It's completely ridiculous.

Tan90'

Bhuel, Is breá liom é gan dabht!! I really do adore Irish, but i do feel that the way it's being taught puts people off.

I mean does anyone else remember Primary School - First thing every morning the 'aul familiar drone "Orm, ort,........." Nó "Chuaigh mé, Chuaigh......."

I learned all my Irish in the Gaelteacht over the years, none of the grammar i learned from books ever stuck, I just speak it by ear. Recently i started studying grammar books to brush up for the Oral, and I actually find it totally interesting. I think if more emphesis was placed on spoken Irish (as is being put in place for present first years - 40% for the oral when there doing it) the grammar would seem less tedious.

Go n-éirí an t-ádh libh sa Bhéaltriail!!!!!

Rosita

I find it extraordinary that someone can have attended any Irish class for 13 years and not have heard somewhere along the line that there are masculine and feminine nouns. It would be impossible to write three sentences accurately without knowing this.

There are obvious problems with the way Irish is thought and assessed with people having to negotiate literature that they are simply not being provided with the language skills to do. But it works the other way too in that people seem to be far too easily rewarded for learning off and regurgitating material in exams. I met one chap in the Gaeltacht last year who could rattle off by heart a number of essays and replies to likely oral Irish questions, but then would say "bhi me ina shui" and not realise he was making an error because he had no idea it was the possessive adjective he was using.

But it is hard to blame teachers as they are being judged on results and it is quicker and more effective in the short-term to get people to learn things by heart for an exam that rewards it.

To be honest I think to be getting an A1/2/3 in the Leaving Cert in Irish you really should be genuinely exceptional in your grasp of the language. Evidence suggests to me that this is not really the case to put it mildly.

KnifeWRENCH

Rosita wrote: »

To be honest I think to be getting an A1/2/3 in the Leaving Cert in Irish you really should be genuinely exceptional in your grasp of the language. Evidence suggests to me that this is not really the case to put it mildly.

Yeah, that's not the case....I'm living proof!!:D

Spyral

LC except art and engineering AFAIK are regurgitation competitions.

I find it extraordinary that someone can have attended any Irish class for 13 years and not have heard somewhere along the line that there are masculine and feminine nouns. It would be impossible to write three sentences accurately without knowing this.

well then I'm extraordinary as I didn't know. Got a d1 honours. which was big for me as im shyte at languages and i did pass irish for the JC.

I would like to be able to speak a bit more than the one or 2 sentences that I can.

KeyLimePie

Rosita wrote: »

I find it extraordinary that someone can have attended any Irish class for 13 years and not have heard somewhere along the line that there are masculine and feminine nouns. It would be impossible to write three sentences accurately without knowing this.

I asked my teacher this the other day and he said that it wasn't on the course so there was no point and grammar doesnt matter ordinary level anyway
He then went on to tell the class that fuinneoig was feminine and not one of them knew about masc or fem nouns!!

Ino112

Our teacher speaks nothing but irish, ever since 3rd year (when I got moved into her class). It's funny when she goes wild when hearing english spoken.

Guess it prepares us more for the actual oral, but still, the emphasis on the prós ect. is completely stupid. Students are more inclined to learn off essays instead of actually learning about the stories.

Edit: We learned about the gender nouns in third year. It is important; things such as 'Fud na tíre' are a result of these rules, yet students learn these phrases without learning the rules. So some are confused as to why the words change.

Cokehead Mother

Ino112 wrote: »

the emphasis on the prós ect. is completely stupid. Students are more inclined to learn off essays instead of actually learning about the stories.

It would be pretty rediculous to not have a literature section though, given how long we've been studying the language for.

I really think there should be a 100% grammar section on the paper worth a good bit of marks. That way teachers would actually feel it was worthwhile teaching it.

Ino112

I like that grammar idea a lot! It would mean students couldn't learn off essays anymore, instead, have to understand all the grammar behind it.

I'm not saying get rid of the prós, just not to put as much emphasis on it.

JC 2K3

There was a grammar section on the paper years back AFAIK.

Dunno why they got rid of it.

I'd nearly be in favour of removing prose from the JC.

Peleus

the problem with Irish is they teach it like English. There are some people out there who are under the impression that The Irish people generally speak Irish. Irish is our first language, whereas only like 8% of the country are fluent in it.

The course is taught like English. They assume that you go home after Irish class and talk to your parents about the emotions that were present in the poem you learned. When really all you do after getting notes on a new poem is add it to the 'LEARN OFF' pile. If they made Irish more like French class, where the emphasis is on the grammar and conversation part of the language and there isn't a poem in sight, then more people would get better at the language.

Making the Irish course more like English is stupid. The examiners are in denial that Irish is still our first language. Making the course more like English is gonna put people off and make people worse at it. Retards


I don't care anymore, cos in two months i'm never going to have to look at another Irish poem ever again.

JC 2K3

Peleus wrote: »

They assume that you go home after Irish class and talk to your parents about the emotions that were present in the poem you learned. When really all you do after getting notes on a new poem is add it to the 'LEARN OFF' pile.

In fairness, depressingly, most LC students just learn off notes on English poems too.

Peleus

JC 2K3 wrote: »

In fairness, depressingly, most LC students just learn off notes on English poems too.

yes, but in English. They understand what the notes say. They don't learn off exactly word for word notes (well most of us anyway) as if they have no idea what the notes mean.

In my school anyway, people learn points on the poem off. then, in the exam using the knowledge they have of all the poems and the points on the poem that they have learned, can write a proper answer. They use their fluency in English to write the answer and don't learn an answer word for word as if they don't speak the language. Thats what generally happens in Irish.


I think the exam should be just like French. Two comprehensions, write a piece on some current affairs subject, then like two letters, a diary entry or a piece of writing on a photo. People will do better so, they can mark it harder. This will put more emphasis on the grammar and syntax used.