13 years of irish

Konata

JC 2K3 wrote: »

There was a grammar section on the paper years back AFAIK.

Funny, I just discovered this myself the other day. My mum came across a whole pile of her leaving cert exam papers we're talking laate 1970's here and on the Irish paper there was indeed a Grammer section. I'd definitely be in favour of bringing this back!

Oh and it seems that the department have been rehashing the same essay titles for alot longer than I thought...I can't remember the exact wording of the title but one of the essays from this 1970s paper was basically the same title as the one on last year's paper I think it was 2007 anyway about the Education system not suiting Irish life nowadays or something along that line...

KeyLimePie

FallingSlowly wrote: »

Funny, I just discovered this myself the other day. My mum came across a whole pile of her leaving cert exam papers we're talking laate 1970's here and on the Irish paper there was indeed a Grammer section. I'd definitely be in favour of bringing this back!
.

I disagree, If you put a whole section on grammar on the paper it'll just turn into learning off a load of notes and not really understanding what's going on with it
Instead we need to have more marks to the grammar and the spelling (mechanics it's called for the englsh exam) in the irish exams

JC 2K3 wrote: »

In fairness, depressingly, most LC students just learn off notes on English poems too.

Ah now i never studied english in my life and I got an A in my Junior Cert and an A2 in my pre

JC 2K3

Lol, same tbh. I got an A2 in the LC without much study, just read the literature, came to my own conclusions, wrote a few sample answers etc.

But this would not be typical.

PurpleFistMixer

A grammar section would be great. Well, at current I'd do terribly on it, but if it were on the course, teachers might actually do some grammar.
I was looking at the A Levels Irish exam and it seems great, they have to translate passages and all, and have grammar questions, as well as having to write essays and read things. Can't remember seeing any literature on it. Seemed much better overall.

pfk-0p

irish is just the worst subject of all time
10 years learning it and i'm terrible and hate it

3 years of french and i'm half fluent and love it

irish is so badly taught
you're expected to be able to construct sentences and verbs for the JC when you weren't even taught them in primary school

plus my irish teacher was a complete nutjob stoner,you'd ask one thing and she tells you the other


oh well not to bothered,useless and awful language.

pfk-0p

there's masculine and feminine verbs in irish?
i was never told that in my so far 10 years learning irish! that says something about the way it's taught doesn't it?

unreggd

the syllabus is a loada me fanny

they need to teach it as a foreign language. because thats what it is, a language you dont understand

its basically the same as the english paper. ye do comprehensions and stories, with the sliochts and stair added in on top

but with english, u understand it all, theres no translation to be done

its absolute bollix

Twee.

I agree that the gap between Higher and Ordinary is far too big. I dropped levels last November and couldn't believe the paper! I had to stay in the HL class so I just sat at the back and pottered away at the exams papers myself, grand. Helped me in the oral though as I'd been listening to HL vocab all year.

Xhristy

This post has been deleted.

yay_for_summer

Ino112 wrote: »

Edit: We learned about the gender nouns in third year. It is important; things such as 'Fud na tíre' are a result of these rules, yet students learn these phrases without learning the rules. So some are confused as to why the words change.

I only found out about masculine/feminine etc at around Christmas of 6th year. My LC teacher was fantastic and even though I couldn't tell the difference between masculine and feminine, I got to recognising most of them from expressions where the tuiseal ginideach was used. eg. ar fud na tíre --> tír is fem. since it uses "na" and gains an e. Working backwards from expressions we'd known for years helped a lot in recognising what sounded right and figuring out the grammar from that.

philologos

KeyLimePie wrote: »

Does anyone else feel cheated or let down by the education system after 13 years that we're unable to converse in our own national tongue

At the risk of stirring up controversy. I'm much more glad that I had English as my mother tongue as opposed to Irish, as it really is more useful in a global context. It'd be much more difficult for us if we were taught Irish from birth.

Yes, Irish can be useful for getting into touch with the history of the country. However I do think it's a bit rash to say that it is the national tongue in modern Ireland, when it is clear that English is.

Don't get me wrong, I think in Irish speaking communities it should be encouraged to speak Irish, however personally I don't find much of a connection to it.

PurpleFistMixer

So that's why you left #gaeilge, Jakkass...

Irish is one of the official languages of the country, so calling it the national tongue is not wrong. The fact of the matter is that only a minority speak it, but it is still "our language".

Also, it's not difficult for children to grow up speaking two languages, so I don't see how hard it would be if you were taught Irish from birth. (Assuming your parents could speak another language as well as Irish which I think is a safe assumption to make.)

philologos

English is one of the most difficult languages in Europe anyway to get a grasp of.

In terms of reading:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1233-english-is-toughest-european-language-to-read.html

Even if English was taught as a 2nd language, some wouldn't be able to manage two languages and a lot of people have difficulties in language learning etc. Irish has little or no influence outside of Ireland, and it is more beneficial to teach children a language like English first.

Having English as the first language taught to children is actually a great blessing on us considering that many people struggle to learn English elsewhere.

If a minority speak it, then it wouldn't be "our language" it would be the language of a select few which wish to speak it. Fair play to them if they feel the wish to.

PurpleFistMixer

People have difficulty learning maths too, shall we stop teaching that? And yeah, I think we all know how little sense English spelling makes. Irish is so much easier in that regard, imo. Irish spelling.

I was always of the impression that the easiest time to teach a child a language is when they're young, so a child growing up with two languages is far more logical than trying to press it on them when they're older. Unless you're suggesting we just not teach Irish at all... and I think you know what I'd say to that. : p

Signature

Irish should be taught like French - with verbs, etc. Not all these stupid little sayings.

LC Irish is awful. There's no English - only Irish. I don't know what we're talking about in class.

philologos

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

People have difficulty learning maths too, shall we stop teaching that? And yeah, I think we all know how little sense English spelling makes. Irish is so much easier in that regard, imo. Irish spelling.

I was always of the impression that the easiest time to teach a child a language is when they're young, so a child growing up with two languages is far more logical than trying to press it on them when they're older. Unless you're suggesting we just not teach Irish at all... and I think you know what I'd say to that. : p

I've never suggested that we should stop teaching it. I was merely commenting on the "national language" idea. I believe it should be optional for Leaving Cert though. I do believe it is in the best interest of children in Ireland to have English taught first as it is easily more beneficial.

PFM, teaching a child with language issues two languages at once could be potentially an issue. Not all children can learn two languages at once.

rainbowtrout

Jakkass wrote: »

PFM, teaching a child with language issues two languages at once could be potentially an issue. Not all children can learn two languages at once.

Actually many children that grow up in households where two languages are spoken generally pick up both languages and after that it depends on the parents to speak both languages to them if they are to keep up their fluency. One of my friends is French and when they lived in Ireland they spoke French in the home as she was speaking English outside the home and vice versa when they lived in France. I teach a number of students who have grown up in Ireland with one parent with a different language and they were raised bilingually, it's not a problem for a child to learn two languages when it's in that sort of setting and they are using the language and not learning off paragraphs out of a book.


From what i remember of primary school a lot of the time we spent learning off short stories in Irish and at the end of the week we had a test and had to regurgitate said story on paper. This didn't teach me how to speak the language, just how to learn off a particular story.

I did honours Irish for my LC and got on well in it. I still have a fairly good command of Irish and could probably offer some opinion on alcohol/drugs/environment/education system in Irish today. But would I be able to write out a shopping list for Tesco or ask for a certain service in the bank etc? I think I might struggle there.

philologos

So you claim that absolutely all children can learn 2 languages from birth, even if they have learning difficulties?

BoozyBabe

Jakkass wrote: »

So you claim that absolutely all children can learn 2 languages from birth, even if they have learning difficulties?

I would say yes, without a doubt!
As the other poster said, if both languages are spoken in the home then the child will have no problem whatsoever. It'll just become natural to them.

i.e when I want an ice-cream I use these words
When I want to play I use these words.
When I want to speak to daddy I use these words (English)
When I want to speak to mammy (Irish / French / Polish, whatever) I use these words.

They don't distinguish them as strange difficult languages, just a different set of words they use.

I have a spanish friend whose niece was fluent in 4 languages by the age of 3, & could switch between languages without hesitation when talking to different people.

They really are sponges, & when put in the correct environment for learning languages, intelligience or disability doesn't come into it.

philologos

But that's only one instance. You can't say all kids are the same based on one example. I don't see what would be beneficial about teaching a child Irish first anyway considering it's primary use is to serve you in the education system until Leaving Cert.

Twee.

Children are absolutely able to pick up languages easily! My cousin is half Dutch living in Ireland. She does not speak a lot of Dutch yet, she's only three, but can understand commands and points out stuff. Her brother, age 1, is already starting to react to commands in Dutch and English.

luckylucky

Jakkass wrote: »

But that's only one instance. You can't say all kids are the same based on one example.

Yes they are. People have an inate ability to pick up languages. Every single situation that I know of where a child has been raised in a bilingual house the child can speak the two languages as long as they are continually exposed to both languages. If the child has that much learning difficulty they won't be able to speak any language.

Anyway ... I finished the LC aeons ago and Irish was one of my worst subjects . The system was wrong then and it sounds like it's still wrong now. Really the education system just pays lip service to the Irish language.

I think Ireland as a country needs to decide whether they really want to bring Irish back as a living language throughout the republic or not. I think a lot of the reason goes back to the creation of our State and perhaps even before that - we were basically trying to survive as a country and that was a struggle enough, also for decades before Irish was being stamped out as English was viewed as the language of progress - perhaps the reversal of that mindset was never going to be easy. Basically the desire to revive the Irish language was just not strong enough and unfortunately the half-way house of 'reviving' it has caused more resentment than goodwill.

I'm living in Portugal just a year and I'm still a long way from fluent in Portuguese but I'm probably better in Portuguese than I ever was at Irish.

Personally I'd like to see Irish come back but it really needs to be something we as a country want, not just to study it at school and then never use it - it's f'n pointless - better not to waste our time with it. I think we as a people need to decide the best future course for the revival or otherwise of the Irish language.. there are plenty of good examples where countries revived their languages. Iceland is one example that comes to mind... though that would not have been too difficult as Icelandic was at least similar to Danish, but perhaps a better example would be Hebrew... it wasn't a living lanaguage until the 1940s/50s where it was modernised and today is once again a thriving language and is the national language of Israel. I have a feeling unfortunately that us Irish don't have that sort of drive, we're basically too blase. I guess it's up to your generation now, mine and the ones before failed.

philologos

I don't think it would be in Ireland's interest to make Irish the defacto natural language of Ireland, having English as the natural mother tongue has been of huge benefit to the country, and even if 2 language situations can work in a lot of cases, it doesn't mean that all parents would bother to teach their children English after Irish. It's a part of an element of Irish culture, and that's perhaps where it's best kept.

luckylucky

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think it would be in Ireland's interest to make Irish the defacto natural language of Ireland, having English as the natural mother tongue has been of huge benefit to the country, and even if 2 language situations can work in a lot of cases, it doesn't mean that all parents would bother to teach their children English after Irish. It's a part of an element of Irish culture, and that's perhaps where it's best kept.

I agree with you that it would not be a wise move to replace English with Irish as the prime language here at this stage, I think it would be possible however to have Irish more widely spoken that it currently is without it being detrimental.

philologos

Sure, I would encourage the founding of more Gaeltachtaí but it should also be emphasised that many other Irish people also find a greater connection to the English language and indeed people have used English as a means of cultural expression through plays, poetry etc. Perhaps it should be recognised that English and Irish are both primary languages of the Republic instead of suggesting that Irish is the national language, whereas English is secondary when it isn't really the reality.

dlofnep

I did my leaving cert 8 years ago, and up until last year - couldn't remember a word of Irish. But I started learning it in my own time and I've become very passionate about it and the path to becoming fluent in it.

I think the fundemental problem, and I've said this elsewhere is that there was not enough focus on the conversational aspect of Gaeilge. I firmly believe there should of been a seperate conversational class, along with a grammar class in order for you to become comfortable with the conversational aspect of the language.

You are able to speak English because you grew up speaking it. If you went through school speaking it in conversational class, you'd be no doubt- fluent before you even went into secondary. But unfortunately, our Government is a waste of space and in over 80 years has not ONCE grasped this.

What annoys me the most is that why on earth would they subject anyone to studying a subject for 13-14 years without getting anything back in return. Alot of people would be more than happy to learn Irish if they knew by the end of it, they could speak it fluently. What is happening slowly is that the youth are becoming annoyed with the language. It appears as a chore, something they have to consistently do but get nothing from.

I hope this 20 year plan by the Government is a serious effort to revive the language, and not transparent crap like road signs and that other nonsense.

luckylucky

Jakkass wrote: »

Perhaps it should be recognised that English and Irish are both primary languages of the Republic instead of suggesting that Irish is the national language, whereas English is secondary when it isn't really the reality.

This is the case already. Both are official languages. btw there are examples of other countries which are quite successful without having a major world language as their 1st language. The Scandanavians and Dutch are good examples where they all can speak their native tongue and the vast majority are able to speak English too there. Mind you their languages are more similar to English than Irish is, so that could be a factor.

Anyway don't get me wrong I'm not all for ramming Irish down peoples throats - I just think we need to re-examine our approach to the language, the current way is pointless.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Sure, I would encourage the founding of more Gaeltachtaí but it should also be emphasised that many other Irish people also find a greater connection to the English language and indeed people have used English as a means of cultural expression through plays, poetry etc. Perhaps it should be recognised that English and Irish are both primary languages of the Republic instead of suggesting that Irish is the national language, whereas English is secondary when it isn't really the reality.

Look, that's all semantics - What is and what isn't our national tongue. It's irrelavant at the end of the day. And increased funding of the Gaeltachtaí only assists those who have the ability to go to them, but it doesn't conquer the overall problem - and that is visibility of Gaeilge in everyday life outside the Gaeltachtaí and a comprehensive & functional educational system that gives the students the ability to converse in the language within a reasonable time-frame.

Do we really want to splashing funds (and I do believe the gaeltachaí need funds) into specific areas, or do we want the entire country to benefit? We're tax payers too! Let's see a little bang for our buck for everyone in the country and not just native speakers.

Drakmord

I hated Irish in school but loved languages in general.
I got an A1 in English, and A2 in German and an A1 in Japanese but had to do pass Irish(Got a B ).
I hate everything about the language, the torture everyday.
We never learned grammar or anything, the language was just one big mess to me.
The Irish leaving cert paper seems to assume that we speak fluent Irish. :mad:
I'll never be able to speak it:(.

dfx-

dlofnep wrote: »

I think the fundemental problem, and I've said this elsewhere is that there was not enough focus on the conversational aspect of Gaeilge. I firmly believe there should of been a seperate conversational class, along with a grammar class in order for you to become comfortable with the conversational aspect of the language.

Agreed. I didn't really like Irish until fifth year and only got a B3 higher level, but I've tried to inviolve myself in conversations in Irish as often as possible since. I can times where I lapse, but after a couple of days of conversing in it and listening again, I'm back to a pretty good fluency.

The LC is a disgrace. I did my LC in 2003...when we had finished Paper I and were ready for the aural, the OL guys were coming back from playing football for the previous hour. The difference in expectation is appalling.

Out of 118 students, 12 including me took the HL paper.They actually had no more room to house the volume of OL students and dumped in the back of the HL class which had eons of room.. :eek: