13 years of irish

dlofnep

dfx - to be completely honest with you, I've learned more Irish over the past few months at conversational nights with a few friends than I had ever learned in 13/14 years of school. Shocking to say the least.. After seeing my own results, and the results of others - including Des Bishop's journey - It's safe to assume, focus on conversational Irish should be a priority in order for the language to be absorbed throughout Ireland.

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

the overall problem - and that is visibility of Gaeilge in everyday life outside the Gaeltachtaí and a comprehensive & functional educational system that gives the students the ability to converse in the language within a reasonable time-frame.

I don't see it as a problem though? What loss is it if people choose to speak English outside of the cultural areas where Irish is associated with?

luckylucky

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see it as a problem though? What loss is it if people choose to speak English outside of the cultural areas where Irish is associated with?

It depends on what importance you give to being able the speak the language of your forefathers... Irish was once spoken throughout the whole island and in historical terms not long ago at all so in reality it's assocaited with all parts of the Ireland. Of course you could also take it back further and say before the Celts came here a few thousand years ago we were speaking probably a Basque like language and I can't see a huge rush for us to learn Basque .

Related to this it was said to me before by an English friend if they hadn't won the war they'd all be speaking German now. My reply was that I was speaking German, it took a while for my meaning to sink in.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see it as a problem though? What loss is it if people choose to speak English outside of the cultural areas where Irish is associated with?

The keyword here is "choice". What about the people who choose to speak Irish, or want to learn Irish? Do you not see a problem with a 13 year curriculum riddled with failure? Would you not rather one that works?

So of course a functional curriculum which allows those outside the Gaeltachtai (fada doesn't work) to speak the language is going to be a positive thing. I don't see any reason why you would think otherwise. Not everyone is as keen as you to see the language fade.

philologos

If they want to learn Irish I would say go ahead and do it. However, claiming that it is a national responsibility to learn Irish is a bit over the top. I agree that the system for learning Irish is flawed indeed it is, I would prefer a system whereby it would be optional after Junior Cert (as Fine Gael policy suggests). Of course a system which allows people outside of the Gaeltacht is a good idea, but at the same time there should be the same encouragement out there for people to express themselves in English in writing especially.

I'm not keen to see the language fade at all, I just think that Irish has to find a different role within the structure of the state than it does at the minute. i.e optional if you wish to be committed to it, but it should be seen as a minority language all the same.

tolosenc

When you're first taught Irish in Primary School, you're 4. The way it's taught is a simulation of how you acquired English. 4 year olds rote learning tables of verbs and noun cases isn't really plausible.

1huge1, children at the age they are when they begin learning Irish have all go an incredible ability to acquire a second language. In fact, they're young enough that they would be classed as native speakers by linguists if they became fluent quickly.

Personally, my belief is that up to and including 3rd/4th class should only be taught through Irish only, with 5th and 6th being used to prepare you for school through English (if that's the course you/your parents choose for ya) as well as the current curriculum.

philologos

obl wrote: »

Personally, my belief is that up to and including 3rd/4th class should only be taught through Irish, with 5th and 6th being used to prepare you for school through English (if that's the course you/your parents choose for ya) as well as the current curriculum.

That would be disastrous surely, the development of the child's articulation skills in English would suffer if schools were taught solely in Irish from Junior Infants to 3rd and fourth class. You only start to write in English, and grasp reading in Junior Infants upwards.

Edit: If Irish is being considered for such a revival surely the State should fund the Ulster Scots speakers in the Republic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_(linguistics)

luckylucky

Jakkass wrote: »

However, claiming that it is a national responsibility to learn Irish is a bit over the top. I agree that the system for learning Irish is flawed indeed it is, I would prefer a system whereby it would be optional after Junior Cert (as Fine Gael policy suggests). Of course a system which allows people outside of the Gaeltacht is a good idea, but at the same time there should be the same encouragement out there for people to express themselves in English in writing especially.

I'm not keen to see the language fade at all, I just think that Irish has to find a different role within the structure of the state than it does at the minute. i.e optional if you wish to be committed to it, but it should be seen as a minority language all the same.

You say that 'a national responsibility to learn Irish is a bit over the top' and fair enough that is your point of view and that of many many others. Personally I think it's a real bad indictment on us as a people (others like I mentioned previously have revived their native tongues and I don't think they were saying while doing that ...hmm how will that affect us economically :rolleyes:) that we have allowed the language of our conquerors to thrive while a language uniquely ours has been allowed to die.

I think though we all have different points of view, we all agree that the current system is basically crap. I think our government needs to take into account all our very different points of view and forge ahead with a realistic approach to the Irish language both in our schools and on the ground. Perhaps something really radical needs to be done, like completely modernising Irish - making it simpler and yes maybe even anglicising it a bit. tbh I'd really prefer if Irish was no longer compulsory than the current sham where we learn it and there is absolutely no everyday use for the language.

philologos

Conquerors, hm. Yes they were, but the English language has been used for many creative purposes by Irish people particularly during the times of W.B Yeats, and others who were using the English language to express Irish identity. Having English is not a curse by any means, considering English is basically the defacto language of the internet, perhaps of a large bulk of literature and educational materials. I however do not think you can blame the English for conquering us at this stage, as we have inherited part of their DNA. I know personally that I am descended from a lot of the settlers during the Plantations, and indigenous Irish.

PurpleFistMixer

Is Ulster Scots even spoken anywhere in the republic? Is it even a separate language? I thought it was regarded as a dialect of English...

Also, Jakkass, care to show us some studies that show children who grow up learning two languages suffer? I assume children would still have english classes in primary school, where they would learn English... combine this with most likely speaking English at home and I see no problems at all.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see it as a problem though? What loss is it if people choose to speak English outside of the cultural areas where Irish is associated with?

And gee, there was me thinking Irish was culturally associated with the republic of Ireland in its entirety. Maybe we should divide Ireland into "Irish culture" regions and... other regions, where we need not think of Irish culture or history, and speak English because it is more economically profitable. We could abolish any things which don't make economic sense too, like old people. Sounds like fun.

Bah humbug.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

If they want to learn Irish I would say go ahead and do it. However, claiming that it is a national responsibility to learn Irish is a bit over the top. I agree that the system for learning Irish is flawed indeed it is, I would prefer a system whereby it would be optional after Junior Cert (as Fine Gael policy suggests). Of course a system which allows people outside of the Gaeltacht is a good idea, but at the same time there should be the same encouragement out there for people to express themselves in English in writing especially.

I'm not keen to see the language fade at all, I just think that Irish has to find a different role within the structure of the state than it does at the minute. i.e optional if you wish to be committed to it, but it should be seen as a minority language all the same.

You've completely misunderstood my point, and for the record - I'd not 100% against optional gaeilge for the leaving cert, but before I would ever even give it consideration - The level of gaeilge per person up until that point would have to be at a near-fluent level - hence my emphasis on conversational classes.

People already have the option to express themselves in English. People speak English in Ireland everyday. The write in English. They order from McDonalds in English. I assure you, the English language isn't going to go anywhere. But the Irish language however will fade unless something drastic is done. So let's examine the facts.

Currently students study Irish for 13-14 years in School. The spend a considerable amount of time each week on it and once it's all said and done, they get nothing from it.

Now the current methodologies for Irish education is and has been a complete failure from the start. I might also add that I'm completely against focusing the use of Irish in specific areas of Ireland. It becomes an elitest language and makes it harder for people to absorb the language and immerse themselves daily with it.

So, should someone want the option to speak the language - They should be firstly presented with a functional curriculum which will give them ability to do it, and secondly - not have to go to their local Gaeltacht to feel comfortable with speaking it.

Take myself for example - I wanted to pursue Gaeilge after finishing school for a number of years, but didn't have any options in my city to do so. I had to post on numerous boards trying to organise weekly conversational nights, just so I could immerse myself in the language. The fact that so much effort was required to immerse myself in our very own language is a disgrace.

Gaeilge should not only be for the people of the Gaeltachtaí or kids from wealthy families who can afford the trips - but rather, to every single person on this Island if they choose to do so. As it stands, there is no option for us to become fluent in our language unless we go to a Gaelscoil. Which is typically, a shed at best.

So if the language is going to be taught, then make it worthwhile. Make it worth learning! Give us something back for our 13 years of hard study - And not just the ability to ask if we have permission to use the toilet or to say it's sunny outside.

PurpleFistMixer

luckylucky wrote: »

Perhaps something really radical needs to be done, like completely modernising Irish - making it simpler and yes maybe even anglicising it a bit.

I know it's said "is fearr gaeilge briste ná béarla cliste", but please no... We already had it standardised. Modernisation does not mean "dumbing down". They could make the LC course easier, but to cripple the language is an insult to those who can speak it.

philologos

PFM, Ulster Scots is spoken by about 10,000 people in Donegal near the border with Tyrone, and I would assume some are in Cavan, Monaghan and Louth also. That's rather sizable considering the native Irish speaking population. It is recognised as a separate language in the UK and in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language#Status

As for Irish being associated with the Republic of Ireland, it is, as English is associated with the Republic of Ireland in many ways also. Also English is not beneficial primarily due to being economically profitable, it's beneficial for educational and learning reasons considering a large bulk of global literature is in English.

dlofnep

I agree with PFM. The language has already been modernised. There is nothing difficult about learning gaeilge. If some Irish-American can learn it in a year by immersion, then surely - we can do it in 13 years by semi-immersion.

The problem is NOT the language. The problem is the educational system.

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

PFM, teaching a child with language issues two languages at once could be potentially an issue. Not all children can learn two languages at once.

Most can. The ones with learning disabilities are the exception and should be treated differently. Doesn't mean we have to lower the rest of our children to learning at their slow level.

Jakkass wrote: »

That would be disastrous surely, the development of the child's articulation skills in English would suffer if schools were taught solely in Irish from Junior Infants to 3rd and fourth class. You only start to write in English, and grasp reading in Junior Infants upwards.

You seriously underestimate people's intelligence.

Have you ever spoken to, for example, a Dutch person? They can articulate in English perfectly well and speak it fluently as well as their native tongue. If taught properly, learning multiple languages isn't hard for a child.

I don't know if I'd want to impose it on people, but I'd agree in principle with all state primary schools being taught through Irish.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

PFM, Ulster Scots is spoken by about 10,000 people in Donegal near the border with Tyrone, and I would assume some are in Cavan, Monaghan and Louth also. That's rather sizable considering the native Irish speaking population. It is recognised as a separate language in the UK and in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language#Status

Find me a source for 10,000 people speaking it in Éire. And I don't mean, people who know a couple of words. So no, it's not a sizable amount whatsoever.

philologos

Compared to 50,000 native Irish speakers it's a reasonable size to warrant State funding. There are also much much more in Northern Ireland, so the total figure is much larger, however they receive UK funding, I'm not sure what the Irish situation is.

PurpleFistMixer

A large bulk of scientific documentation is written in Russian. Why are we crippling our children's chances to succeed in life by not teaching them Russian from birth?

Also regarding status, there was no citation on the wikipedia article so I can't prove the truth of this, but here is a quote; (it's the first line in the "status" section for the Ulster Scots article)
"Among academic linguists, Ulster Scots is treated as a variety of the Scots language or, along with all Scots varieties, as a dialect of English."

This is getting off the point a little, though.

English is related to the republic of Ireland as it's the most widely spoken language here. However it is not related to Irish culture as Irish is, and yes many writers have expressed themself through English, perhaps because they had no other choice. If you did HL Irish for LC, you'll know the importance of Irish in the history of Irish literature, hell our poets were serious professionals back in the day.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Compared to 50,000 native Irish speakers it's a reasonable size to warrant State funding. There are also much much more in Northern Ireland, so the total figure is much larger, however they receive UK funding, I'm not sure what the Irish situation is.

Wrong again. I asked you to provide me a source for 10,000 fluent speakers of Ulster Scots in the Irish Republic. You can't. You'll be lucky if you can find 10 fluent in it, let alone 10,000. I'll await your source.

Secondly - Gaeilge is the native language of Ireland, Ulster-scots is not.

philologos

I can, the Wikipedia page suggests 10,000 and has a reference to a report on language in the Republic of Ireland. Look at the link to Ulster Scots I gave.

That's incredibly arrogant to suggest that Irish is the native language and Ulster Scots is not, considering that Irish is native to a few thousand, as is Ulster Scots to a few thousand. I'm sure those speakers of Ulster Scots are as much Irish citizens as you or I are.

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

If you did HL Irish for LC, you'll know the importance of Irish in the history of Irish literature, hell our poets were serious professionals back in the day.

I did indeed, but the situation is that we have to analyse the situation of the Irish language in Ireland today.

luckylucky

Jakkass wrote: »

Conquerors, hm. Yes they were, but the English language has been used for many creative purposes by Irish people particularly during the times of W.B Yeats, and others who were using the English language to express Irish identity. Having English is not a curse by any means, considering English is basically the defacto language of the internet, perhaps of a large bulk of literature and educational materials. I however do not think you can blame the English for conquering us at this stage, as we have inherited part of their DNA. I know personally that I am descended from a lot of the settlers during the Plantations, and indigenous Irish.

Never said having English was a curse.... nobody is saying that we should no longer have English as our main language here btw . also on the English DNA thing, speak for yourself :P. afaik I have none. Obviously though at this stage there is a reasonable % of English DNA in Ireland, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the majority part of our heritage which is Gaelic Irish.

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

I know it's said "is fearr gaeilge briste ná béarla cliste", but please no... We already had it standardised. Modernisation does not mean "dumbing down". They could make the LC course easier, but to cripple the language is an insult to those who can speak it.

I think you might be missing my point - in the end of the day whatever curriculum they have for LC Irish is not the main point, the main point is where do we want to go with Irish...the approach since independence has been pointless, what is the point of teaching it (and teaching it badly at that) when it serves no use, either make it an integral part of our society or stop having it compulsory. I'd be up for having it modernised if it made it easier to learn, wouldn't necessarily mean that it was dumbed down... just easier to use... you could view it as smartening it up even :P.

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

That's incredibly arrogant to suggest that Irish is the native language and Ulster Scots is not, considering that Irish is native to a few thousand, as is Ulster Scots to a few thousand. I'm sure those speakers of Ulster Scots are as much Irish citizens as you or I are.

I don't see Ulster Scots in the constitution, which is what the whole modern concept of being an Irish person is based on. It's not about arrogance, it's about fact.

philologos

Well, if there is a large enough population speaking Ulster Scots, then it should be recognised as a cultural group. They are recognised in the Good Friday Agreement and as a result the Irish State should have had the cop on by now to recognise them, considering in this day and age even the Orange Order get funding from the Irish State (€250,000 to lodges in the Republic).

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

I can, the Wikipedia page suggests 10,000 and has a reference to a report on language in the Republic of Ireland. Look at the link to Ulster Scots I gave.

That's incredibly arrogant to suggest that Irish is the native language and Ulster Scots is not, considering that Irish is native to a few thousand, as is Ulster Scots to a few thousand. I'm sure those speakers of Ulster Scots are as much Irish citizens as you or I are.

Oh, wikipedia suggests it has 10,000 speakers? Wikipedia being the be all and end all of resources. You're kidding yourself if you think there are 10,000 people in Ireland who even have a basic conversational level of Ulster-Scots, let alone fluency!

So - You don't want people to have a chance to speak Irish here, but you're more than happy for the Government to fund a joke of a language in Ulster-Scots, that nobody even speaks. And the only guys who speak it even in the North are the hard-lined loyalists, just to counter any republicans learning Gaeilge.

The survey itself asks if they "speak" Ulster-Scots, not implying any fluency whatsoever. So you had 30,000 in the North who said they spoke it, but out of them - How many are fluent? Probably a few dozen at most.

So when you can come back to me with a comprehensive reference for a list of fluent Ulster-Scots speakers in either the south or north, then we can debate this. But the fact of the matter is, you won't - Because nobody actually speaks the language.

Now, I'd appreciate it if you stopped taking this thread off-topic. It's about the Irish language and how our eductional system has failed us. Not for your agenda against Gaelic culture.

PurpleFistMixer

@luckylucky: How would you propose it be "modernised"? I'm not sure I understand how you would make it easier without dumbing it down or anglicising it. What we need, and what is actually the topic in this thread, is better education. It wouldn't be seen as too difficult if it were taught correctly, and ideally if people would get over the idea that it's hard. Okay, yes, it's different to English, and unlike French it doesn't share a similar vocabulary. But it's not rocket science.

@Jakkass: if we're talking about Irish today, then saying Irish people have expressed themselves well in English in the past (ie Yeats, Joyce) is similarly irrelevant. Do we meant Irish right now at this very second, in the last 10 years, in the last 20 years? At what point does history stop being relevant? To me it's madness to attempt to analyse anything without taking context, be it historical or cultural, into account.

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh, wikipedia suggests it has 10,000 speakers? Wikipedia being the be all and end all of resources. You're kidding yourself if you think there are 10,000 people in Ireland who even have a basic conversational level of Ulster-Scots, let alone fluency!

That's why I said check the reference it gives on the bottom of the page, which shows their source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_(linguistics)#cite_note-1

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

That's why I said check the reference it gives on the bottom of the page, which shows their source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_(linguistics)#cite_note-1

Once again, keyword being "can speak". It doesn't imply anything other than they know a few words of the language.

Just in comparison with a similar survey for Gaeilge - 1.6 MILLION people in Ireland consider themselves as competent speakers with half a million who speak it on a daily basis.

If you were to create an accurate statistical chart of those who were "competent" speakers of Ulster Scots in the North & South. Do you really think you'd find 30k & 10k? You'd be deluded if you did.

philologos

You've already shown your reasoning for disagreement.

dlofnep wrote:

So - You don't want people to have a chance to speak Irish here, but you're more than happy for the Government to fund a joke of a language in Ulster-Scots, that nobody even speaks. And the only guys who speak it even in the North are the hard-lined loyalists, just to counter any republicans learning Gaeilge.

You see is as a Unionism / Republican thing, and I personally don't want to descend into that, as I'm quite okay with the political structure that we have at the minute until the people of NI decide for themselves to be a part of the Irish Republic if at all.

However I'm finding that there has been limited co-operation by Ireland in relation to Ulster Scots, but it's clear where their priorities lie I guess.

JC 2K3

Emm... of course their priorities lie with the national language....

In meeting with an Ulster Scots group, the minister has shown the state recognises the language and supports its existence. The Ulster Scots people seem happy. What more do you want?

luckylucky

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

@luckylucky: How would you propose it be "modernised"? I'm not sure I understand how you would make it easier without dumbing it down or anglicising it. What we need, and what is actually the topic in this thread, is better education. It wouldn't be seen as too difficult if it were taught correctly, and ideally if people would get over the idea that it's hard. Okay, yes, it's different to English, and unlike French it doesn't share a similar vocabulary. But it's not rocket science.

Modernising was just an idea, basically I think we need to think outside of the box, get some think-tanks on it. Modern English is very different and has less redundant stuff than Shakespeare's English, similarly it has gone quiet a bit different from Victorian english... this change has occured mostly naturally afaik and (if spoken properly) I wouldn't have said it has gotten dumbed down -rather altered for the world we live in. Anyway I'm pretty bad at Irish so excuse me if I'm wrong but maybe if we got some bright minds on it the language could be modernised(ok I realise we'd end up f'king it up ) without being dumbed down. I don't think Irish should be the preserve of just the Gaeltacht, it was the language of a large proportion of our forefathers.


Getting back to the OT - The one problem with better education is the teachers - most primary school teachers are not fluent in Irish - how the hell can they teach the language properly. Again I think a big examination of where we want to go with this language of ours is needed